I have an idea, that is to cage queen for more honey storage. Reasons: more free space for honey storage and workers are free from taking care brood. The queen will only be released after 2 weeks to avoid colony collapse. Any comment on this idea?
I have my doubts. You are assuming that a new born bee will forage if there is no brood to care for. I think your assumptions will burn your theory. I surely think they won't skip their house cleaning phase. For more space just add more supers.
more brood -- more workers -- stronger hive-- more honey
Good thought
However.... it will be almost 2 weeks before a lot of the bees will be hatched out, 3 weeks for some. In the mean time that brood still needs feeding and that space won't free up. It is necessary for some climates in order to treat disease but don't have a winter brood break.
But...you might be thinking more along the lines of a cut-down split, read this through: http://bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm
This removes the open brood(where the resources are being used up) but retains the ready to hatch bees and the workers.
It is not as useful if you have longer smaller nectar flows but could be more so in a short but intense nectar flow.
Rick
Quote from: limyw on July 11, 2007, 12:31:16 PM
I have an idea, that is to cage queen for more honey storage. Reasons: more free space for honey storage and workers are free from taking care brood. The queen will only be released after 2 weeks to avoid colony collapse. Any comment on this idea?
More supers mean more storage. Lets not mess with what the Honey Bee does best
Cage the queen for more honey? I don't think so.
For disaster? maybe.
doak
hmmm i'd say he's right.
anyone read about the..hummm "in honey favour" split?
when you take all the open brood out, so less bees have to care for them, thus more bees can cure honey, store it etc etc.
although...timing would have to be...jeesh, ok...so the queen shouldn't be caged for more than 10 days so...you would have to cage her around 10 days before the expected flow, so when the flow would start the opened brood would be all gone. i could "describe" the theory more exactly but....it's merelly a theory, one that would probably not stand a chance. it would be better to just take out the open brood and make a hive out of that, off course right when the flow starts.
The only time I have ever heard of caging the queen," other than moving or reintroducing her",
Is to decrease the increase in bee population, for the purpose of swarm prevention.
And then it is not highly recomended.
Let the queen lay eggs, give more space, get more honey.
Any disruption does not increase honey yeilds.
I believe in the "old school".
doak
Are we talking about more honey for US or for them. :?
Quote from: BeeHopper on July 12, 2007, 09:00:22 AM
Are we talking about more honey for US or for them. :?
well, they never do gather and make honey for us, so primarly it's for them. but, everything we do, is to make sure they gather/make maximum ammount of honey so we can claim it as ours so...first it's more honey for them, so we can steal more honey from them.
No open brood means less work for workers hence more focus on honey collection, I believe this is true as I observed during new queen making untill when it start to lay eggs, the hive always produce the most honey and cap faster. Add super does not increase the bee density in short period. A break in brood cycle also helpful in reduce varoa.
Hmmm, sounds like asking for trouble to me. I guess if you had everything timed exactly right, it mightwork even then,there are many other variables . I suspect if I tried it it would end up the bee equivalent Hurricane Katrina in there.
--Jeff
ok I will add my 2 pennies worth, I know during a flow a queenless hive will collect more honey, now when the time to take the queen away I am not sure of but I have seen this many times with hives that have gone queenless sometimes during the flow, I have split hives and let the raise there own queen and the queenless split out work the queen right split, dont know why but many times have I seen this.... timing must be perfect but I dont know when it happens, guess I just split at right time but know a queenless hives works harder........
Have you all taken into consideration the amount of honey "not" being used during this period to rear brood.
Where else would they put it than store it. Can you prove they actually "bring in" more nector when less brood is present?
Some time its hard to see forest because of the trees, and v-v.
doak
Quote from: doak on July 12, 2007, 07:12:51 PM
Have you all taken into consideration the amount of honey "not" being used during this period to rear brood.
Where else would they put it than store it. Can you prove they actually "bring in" more nector when less brood is present?
Some time its hard to see forest because of the trees, and v-v.
doak
i am not sure if anyone even said they bring in more...no actually we did but...you are right. there are multiple factors because of which OUR honey yield increases.
but still....brood eats smaller ammount of honey, you know..primarly brood is fed with pollen and royal gelle..humm but bees eat honey to make royal gelee...
ah well, yes doak, the increased ammount of honey is caused by multiple factors, which all derive from the fact of lack of brood. numerous chain reactions are caused by removing open brood/queen.
I would say if anyone has an over wintered colony, that cannot produce at least one medium super of honey in a season, under normal conditions, if there is any kinda of flow at all, without taking some step like "caging the queen", then they need to consider another strain of bees.
doak
P.S.
The national average use to be 30 to 40 lbs. per colony, per year. I think that was without migrating
Would a beek using this method to increase honey yield run the risk of injuring or killing the Queen when the time comes to " Cage " her. I would not risk it for any amount of honey, but I can see how the method works. :)
Quote from: BeeHopper on July 12, 2007, 08:08:36 PM
Would a beek using this method to increase honey yield run the risk of injuring or killing the Queen when the time comes to " Cage " her. I would not risk it for any amount of honey, but I can see how the method works. :)
so does every inspection.
this so called method...is by no chance worth the risk and the time so....except for experimental purposes it's useless.
I was not saying when to do it but half seen queenless splits out produce queen right splits many times, just the time of pulling a queen and the time of the flow will both matter....... but it can be dont for sure, I believe that just dont know when, to many factors dealing with pulling a queen and adding her back plus timing, splits are best from what I seen....
very interesting theories about this.I have some colonies that I try to get as much honey from as fast as I can and to do this i run them in a single deep and use a excluder.kind of a bigger cage; so I have enough bees to fill two boxes they put ALL THE HONEY UP no extra in brood chamber. these boxes always have beards on the front at night.they always bring in large crops fast. they are on a mission when the flow is on. I dont worry about swarming these bees are for honey production and thats it. this is some ideas so you can get some honey.leave the queen in just manage them to your advantage. RDY-B
Here is a thread and link about a Russian idea about running a queenless hive to gather honey.
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php?topic=6176.0
Roughly, the idea is to shake out queenless bunch of bees, place them near a nectar source in a box with comb, wait a month or so for the bees to die, then harvest the honey. I'm not sure if I like the idea, but if you have a very strong hive and don't want to do a split for an increase it may be worth a try.
Please read:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm (http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm)
It deals with splits but it also discusses splits for honey production.
Sincerely,
Brendhan
Timing is every thing many a bump in the road between hear and there ;) Go for the honey RDY-B
http://www.somersetbeekeepers.org.uk/Taking%20an%20artificial%20swarm%20(Broadband).htmhttp://www.somersetbeekeepers.org.uk/Taking%20an%20artificial%20swarm%20(modem).htm
http://www.somersetbeekeepers.org.uk/Taking%20an%20artificial%20swarm%20(Broadband).htm
Appreciate you finding that link Rdy-b, that's some good information, very clear and loved his lil model hive. The video makes it look so easy.
By caging the queen the effect on the hive is to become honey bound. If you want the hive to grow after the queen is released it is still necessary to give the queen room to do so. That requires supering and building comb for egg laying.
Why not just skip the caging part and just super. After all, the more comb the more brood the more workers for foraging which makes more honey. Reducing the amount of brood to care for will not necessarily force the younger nurse bees into becoming foragers any sooner. In fact the more bees in the hive the faster they will become foragers.
If you can time it about 10 days to 2 weeks before the flow starts, you can increase harvest significantly. REmember. It takes a frame of honey, and a frame of pollen, to make a frame of bees. IF you are all close readers of M Bush website, what do you think he is describing when he talks about a cutdown split? No brood for a month. Same principle. My flow is over here in pretty short order. I will be pulling it in about 2 to 3 weeks. Then nothing of significance for a long time.(about 7 months) If I leave the honey spread out all over, a mess of half drawn frames, uncured nectar, and I will be feeding welfare bees just to get them to winter, let alone through it. I take mine, squeeze em up, make some late splits and feed them, and try to lightly monitor them going into winter. I don't worry much about them until they start brooding up in the early spring. Thats the worrisome time. Remember, they aren't pets. They won't bring your slippers, or fetch the paper. You can't rub em behind the ears, and they won't lie on your feet and keep em warm on those long months of below freezing temps. But they will make honey, and help carry the load.
>You are assuming that a new born bee will forage if there is no brood to care for.
It's been supported by much experience and several studies. They will be recruited to forage if there is no brood to care for.
This will only work if you time it right. You need to cage the queen about two weeks before the flow. I'd go for three weeks.