Y L B - Em Supers ARE heavy! :-D
Brand new beekeeper. 2 hives started this spring. I just lifted my FIRST medium super that is almost completely filled with honey.
I have a new appreciation for Michael Bush's insistence on medium supers instead of deeps. Those things are quite heavy. Heavier than the pounds would indicate. If they were a 45 pound brick, they would be easy. But they are big, square, you have to handle them gently cause they are full of bees. You lean, change directions . . .
You experienced beekeepers know what you are talking about. I want to go back and change to 8 frame equipment!
I'm sure you've all seen the ditty:
YLB MR DUCKS
EM ARE NUTT
OSAR CM WANGS
YLB MR DUCKS
Thou shall offer sacrifice to our patron saint of the small cell as acknowledgment of his holy word.
You got any cute daughters that you can sacrifice?
Nevermind.
Yes, the desire not to be riddled with back pain and upset bees because you have drop the box is a good thing. I see no reason for me to be out there when I am older having to pay for my years of beekeeping by being stuck in the house with backpain.
Congradulations on having seen the light. Careful this beekeeping thing may be fun if we don't break our backs doing it.
Sincerely,
Brendhan
I dont even want to think about how using deep supers would feel. Actualy I cant see myself using mediums either. I'm only 29 yrs old but I've had a week back since I injured it badly when I was 18 on top of that I'm a little guy 5' 5" @ 130 lbs :-D. Anyway I use shallow 10 frame supers and to me they are even heavy. I've been thinking about going to 8 frame boxes in my 2nd yr. this comming spring because I've been thinking about how its going to be when I'm 40 or 50yrs old. Anything could happen aswell, and I may not have the help that I do now either by my bro. We have 6 hives 3 apeice & split the work load the best we can. I appreciate having him to help me lift the heavy shallows on my 3 hives :oops:.
When I get older, I'm gonna ask santa for a fork lift, a used one. Then I'll use all deeps. :-D
I owe two ruptured disks to helping a friend harvest his deep supers. :-P A Bee got me in the ankle as I was wrestling one to the truck, I twisted, and the rest is history as they say. I use deep broods and shallow supers. I can pretty much count on 3 gal. per super. If I had to buy all my stuff over again I'd probably buy all mediums though - interoperability and all that stuff. :-D
Yes,Yes.
I took an 8 frame deep off that was chest high yesterday.
Won't happen again.
Say "NO" more
doak
yes they are heavy i am using all deeps now dont think i'll be going more than 2 or at most 3 supers on top of 2 brood boxes. In jamaica, most if not all hives are at least 18 inches off the ground. When i get too old to lift then i'll start teaching beekeeping on the farm. :evil:
Quote from: MikeG on July 14, 2007, 12:54:32 PM
Y L B - Em Supers ARE heavy! :-D
You experienced beekeepers know what you are talking about. I want to go back and change to 8 frame equipment!
I'm sure you've all seen the ditty:
YLB MR DUCKS
EM ARE NUTT
OSAR CM WANGS
YLB MR DUCKS
now this might get some fired up but I am going to tell you what I think!!!!
A single medium frame will weigh about 2-4 pounds and getting rid of 2 frames that weight 4-8 pounds in a super just is nothing to me, why go to 8 frames doesn't make since to me from ten frames in lifting a super, 8 frames is heavy also, at most 6 more pounds will not make that much a difference to me......... now on a deep it could be 8-10 pounds so that might but shoot, if you lifting 90 pounds what the difference in 100........ just have never understood the 8 frame thing, if supers are to heavy pull them a frame at a time, that's just my thinking. just have a empty deep or medium and put honeys frames in it.......
I just always thought going 8 frames never made any since, heck they just started making 8 frame equipment in most the suppliers because the demand got high because 4-10 pounds because 4-10 pounds a frame got heavier........ keep the 10 frame hives and get a empty super being deep or not and move a frame at a time into a buggy or wheel barrel, use your head and not what others think.......MB SAID HE USED 11 FRAMES PER DEEP by cutting the edges of frames to fit 11 frames in a 10 frame deep, you make the call but I always thought it was a bunch of bull......
now if you are going to pollinate and lifting a whole hive, that could be a lot of weight difference, but if you or just going to keep hives then 10 frame is what I suggest....
if you go to eight frame's because of weight then think of 5 frame nucs they will weight less than eight, bee's need to have a big brood chamber to have room to produce enough brood area to have a big healthy hive, if not they will fill honey in all places when a flow is on, like MB said about adding 11 frames in a 10 frame hive , they have a brood area and for a eight frame high to produce that much bee's the would about need 3 deeps of brood in a 8 frame to produce what 10-11 frames would do in 2 deeps, so how high you want to reach???
just my 2 pennies worth, I got my stile with 10 frames and see no advantage with 8 frames hives unless I was moving complete hives for pollination..
^^^^^ All that does make sense, I can see where your comming from. I guess those of us with bad backs just look for any advantages that we can get.....even if it is just a few lbs difference. You've got me to thinking now about the brood area. IDK yet but I think I would rather use 10 frame shallows and NOT trade the 4-8 or what ever extra lbs for the extra height & extra boxes having to be used, which means more boxes to lift. All though I do plan to stay with shallow supers instead of switching to mediums. I do know that it isnt so much heavy objects that make my back to start bothering me so much as it is repetitive lifting of objects that have alittle weight to them (say 20 or more lbs.) , and/or bending over, and/or leaning forward for long amounts of time. So IDK I think I may agree with you. Thanks for pointing out the things that you did.
Like TWT said, how high will your set up go? This is something to keep in mind. Do you want to use a ladder to get to the top to work those supers? I do that in a good flow already. I use two deeps, the rest mediums. I also elevate my hives about 18" from the ground for weed and bug control.
Well, at least we all agree that they are HEAVY.
Its not just the weight. The ergonomics of handling honey bee supers is just bad. Medium only is obviously (to me) the only way to go. Obviously, I'm not going to really change to 8 frames, because it is impractical at this point. But regardless of the numbers mentioned, they still give a 20% weight reduction. That is nothing to sneeze at. Plus, the load will be slightly closer to your body. The height issue I can't address or argue with. I can see this as a possible problem (yet with some possible solutions).
(personal opinion - but then isn't it all) All new beekeepers need to be urged to use medium or smaller supers (as you all have been doing). The supply houses need to stress this more strongly.
My new motto: "BAN THE DEEPS"
I'm working on training my bees to jar my honey for me, just open the jars set them around the hive and they do the rest, No lifting or anything. I'll keep you all posted if arthritis or altimers don't set in first and i'm only 33 years old. :lol:
I understand the point of 6-8 lbs not being that big of difference. Now then, factor in the off weigh to balance ratio and recompute. Due to the extra width of a 10 frames it feels almost twice as heavy because that extra poundage is on the outside away from your body trying to pull you over. The advatnage of 8 frames is that you do not have to counter-balance as much weight and, therefore, are less likely to injure yourself.
It has something to do with Physics.
as an example try lifting a 12V car battery which is small but realatively heay (all that lead). Now take the same amount of weight and make its mass twice as large (say the size of a deep super) and see how much harder it is to handle. Size is more of a back killer than weight.
I use a ladder routinely to access my top supers. 2 of my hives are 8 mediums high (8 frame) at the moment. Quite honestly, all arguments about which is "best" aside, I simply like the look.
Understudy and I extracted one of my hives. One medium frame was every bit of 9lbs and the medium box was easily 50lbs. The day before Understudy arrived, i extracted a deep that produced easily four gallons of extracted honey from the one deep. The whole box easily weighed more than 75lbs. I needed new drawn frames for nucs and it turned out to be a great bonus for my expansion needs. I now have a deep of drawn frames, but I would not regularly use a deep. I had to make sure i didn't place it too high or I couldn't lift it. it couldn't be to low either, I'm getting older you know! they are heavy, but only if filled w/ honey which means success!!!!
A medium with capped honey on both sides of 10 frames will weigh in the 70-75lb range, a deep in the 100lb range.
they are heavy the only good thing about deep suppers is when you extract it is like doing a double spin the honey flows faster and time is more productive. if you spend a couple of days spinning honey you start looking for the deeps all of a sudden they are your best friends :-D
I put the average weight of a frame at 6lbs/2.7kg. With a ten frame hive the removal of two frames is 12lbs/5.4kg pounds. To me that is a lot of difference. 10 frames would be 60 lbs/27kg, the removal of two frames, that drops the weight to 48 pounds. That is a big difference when having to lift a box. Also as Konasdad said those frames were darn heavy at his place. So remember 6lbs is an average.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeseightframemedium.htm (http://www.bushfarms.com/beeseightframemedium.htm)
Sincerely,
Brendhan
>Bush was right.
I haven't heard those words together since George W got elected...
>Now then, factor in the off weigh to balance ratio and recompute. Due to the extra width of a 10 frames it feels almost twice as heavy because that extra poundage is on the outside away from your body trying to pull you over.
Exactly. A medium frame full of honey weighs 6 pounds. And that six pounds is very far from your body. And so is the other frame. 12 pounds more than a foot from you is harder to handle than 12 pounds close to your body.
But even if you ignore that. 45 pounds (eight frame mediums) vs 90 pounds (ten frame deeps)? That's double. As to how many frames, it's irrelevant. They will weight the same with six frames in them full of honey as they do with nine. The bees will fill out the difference in honey.
A good friend recently blew out his back lifting deeps. He is not the first and he won't be the last.
well, we pulled 183 shallows and illinois yesterday and extracted them today. We topped 8 55gallon barrels today at 660lbs. each, and have to take them back tommorrow to go back on and pull more. i would say the lighter the better for me just go for quanity.
Hmmm...I use deeps, honey supers and brood chambers. I don't have any quest to change the system, yet, don't know if I ever will. When I am taking honey off, as Ted said, I have an empty box in a wheelbarrow and plain and simply move each frame into that box, simple, relaxing, no heavy lifting. I may one day use the medium boxes for the honey supers, but I have all the equipment as deeps and don't want to make any more purchases.
I remember Jorn Johanssen in a post speaking about cutting deeps in half for the honey supers, building a new inside wall for each, and sitting them side by side on top of the brood chambers. These boxes then were four-frame deeps and quite easily lifted and managed. If anything, I think that I would try that. It seemed like a really good idea in principle. Have a wonderful day, great life, Cindi
well alright for you NEWBEE07 did you get a piece of the action I remember you said you where first year thats a lot of honey sounds like theres good amount of bees making honey I take it this is not money bags that bought the one thousand hives always like to hear about successful efforts tell me more :) RDY-B
Say you have 20 hives that average 4 (10 frame) supers each. Thats 80 supers. 800 frames. To get the same amount of frames out of (8 frame supers) you would have to lift 20 more supers total. So you would be lifting 100 (8 frame supers) instead of 80 (10 frame supers). Is this right? Anyway if it is then IDK I think that I (meaning only myself) may would rather only lift 80.
>I remember Jorn Johanssen in a post speaking about cutting deeps in half for the honey supers, building a new inside wall for each, and sitting them side by side on top of the brood chambers.
I've done that. I've also cut notches in the center wall for better communication. It works, but it takes more wood and more work and it doesn't work in the brood nest as it breaks it up too much, and sooner or later you'll have a full deep on top of a full deep.
i wished it was my honey we extracted, but me and my brother help a commercial operation as well so often and this was all his. Ours is to be extracted shortly. all i know is he had some money flowing through those pipes yesterday and more this weekend. As far as the guy that bought all the equipment, no much going on right now . I went down there a minute ago to talk him out of an extractor or uncapper or anything good and he was out messing with the cattle. i will keep you posted
I take mine off one frame at a time, and place into an empty box, and then use the now empty box for the next one. We took off 300# of honey this way two weeks ago, and it works ok if you can get close to the hive to do it. If I can't get close enough, I use an empty nuc box, and then I only have to deal with the weight of 5 frames at a time. I like deeps, but I also like mediums........ :).