Okies so trhe two nucs.............one going like a house on fire, huge amount of bees, 10-20 per second coming and going.
The other nuc, oh dear, a handful of bees, no stores to speak of, no pollen, a few capped and emerging brood, and I mean a few, maybe a coupla dozen.
One big bee was running from me, hiding, maybe a queen? but no covered frames of bees, nuttink, nada.
One every minute entering this hive.
Should I swap locations? How do I transfer a frame of brood and nurse bees making sure there is no queen among them? or should I just wait and see?
Its as though all the bees from this nuc have jumped ship and gone to the other hive.
I did put a frame of last years honey in with them a month ago, it doesnt seem to have been added to, if anything its a lil less than when I put it in.
So two nucs, purchased same day, one going mad, the other struggling, both within 20 feet of each other.
Plenty of food around, nice weather, lots of pollen and honey in the strong one.
Im stumped.
Is there such a thing as a lazy queen?
Yes, there is such a thing as a lazy queen.
If you can add a frame of brood from the other hive. It may give her a kick start.
Sincerely,
Brendhan
Mick, if the nuc that has low numbers is doing well otherwise, but the queen is shooting blanks you could do a combine, but of course you would lose that one queen. I would try as Brendhan has suggested first, to give her, them, a kickstart, but if all else fails do a combine.
Sincerely, JP
try swapping her empty pollen frame with one from the other nuc which has pollen and feed her syrup since you say she has no stores and give her a frame of capped brood. when you pull the frame of brood from the other hive, give it a couple of shakes [after making sure the queen isn't on it] tp dislodge most of the adult bees. the ones left clinging on are usually the younger nurse bees. gl!
The fact that she's running and hiding leads me to believe you have a virgin queen, which means either the other queen failed or they swarmed. Look for open brood, capped brood and emerging brood to see if there was a gap in egg laying.
I dont think they swarmed as there wernt enough bees in the first place to swarm. From day one it was ovbious that this was the weaker of the two.
I half reckon the queen was a dud from the word go.
Theres no larvae, just a few capped and emerging brood and I mean a few.
It could even be queenless now, I dunno.
I will chuck a frame of brood and nurse bees in the other one plus some stores, Ill turn the frame over a few times to make sure there isnt a queen on it.
The good news is that the other is so strong, I can afford to rob it.
Is it possible that they all jumped ship to the other hive?
G-Day MICK, So you have one hive going flat out like a lizzard drinking, And You have one hive with a possable Dud, I would do as they say and give the weak hive a frame of brood and stores and hope they pick up soon. You should be going into fall pritty soon so they should be doing well. If you think they would do better you could kill off the weaker queen and combine the weaker hive Have a G-DAY Mick
Angi
Had a good chat with Dallas, the Bill Gates of Bees.
I chucked two frames of brood in, reduced entrance 75%.
One wax moth larvae immediately ran like the roadrunner out the entrance. I spose in went 500 nurse bees and a coupla thousand eggs.
Interestingly there are bees buzzing around the vents. This happened to this nuc when I got it. You know, Im now thinking the other hive robbed this one out. Either that, or the bees from either hive are keen on the scent from this one. Are they trying to get in and kill bees? rob stores? or just dumb?
Anyway, Ive gone from one bee a minute leaving/entering the weak one to 1 bee every 5 seconds.
The bees in the good nuc are not impressed. Stinging me 6 hours after the event.
Mick, good, you have taken measures to strengthen this colony. I am sure this will help out alot. I remember you speaking in an earlier post about how much weaker this colony was than the other package colony. It is important, so important, to try and keep colony numbers reasonably equal. Especially during times when there may be a dearth. Stronger colonies will rob out weaker colonies as soon as they figure out that there is a weak state. Bees are survivors. Have a great and awesome day. Cindi
It's hard to beat a frame with eggs and open brood as it gives them the resources to replace a bad queen. It's hard to beat a frame of emerging brood as those bees will quickly repopulate the nuc. A frame of honey for food never hurts if there is room. :)
QuoteI dont think they swarmed as there wernt enough bees in the first place to swarm. From day one it was ovbious that this was the weaker of the two
I've seen some fairly small hives swarm. If the swarm conditions are there a hive will swarm regardless to it's overall size.
Having added a couple of frames of bees the queen should either get it in gear or be superceded. Check for supercedure cells in a week to 10 days as they will be very visiable by that time if there.
It does sound as if the hive in question was being raided by the other hives, a not too uncommon of an occurrance for weaker hives that will plunge them into a death sprial if not attended to.
A week after adding the two frames of brood I had a good look this morning.
No sign of a Queen, no freh eggs.
However I dis spot what could be a Queen cell. I should have taken a pic. I noticed that about 6 bees were inda guarding this cell and fiddling around with it.
So what do you reckon?
BTW do they only make one queen cell or a few?
Also added a frame of last years honey as there dd not seem to be much in the way of stores.
Also noted, on one of the original nuc frames, 5 bees that seem to have perished while trying to emerge from the cells. There wasnt much else on this frame, MAYBE some nectar way down in the bottom of the cells., but certainly no honey, so I removed that one and replaced it with the frameof honey mentioned above.
Meanwhile the other hive is going gangbustes and are fiesty little buggers. They can sting through the heavy duty cotton suit no worries!
Sounds like a queen cell they are fiddling with for sure. You did right by giving them food. Watch their progress, let them be for a week or so, so she can emerge un-disturbed by you, and take her maiden voyage.
......JP
I cracked, it was gunna drive me crazy not taking a pic. These pics are of one of the two frames of brood I added last weekend from the strong hive,
Suspected Queen cell, note the yellow bit of stuff on the end
(http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/7897/img0005640x480lf1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Suspected Queen cell. Note the larvae from the added frames.
(http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/4561/img0007640x480yt5.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Big cell on the left has a larvae in it, looks re used, suspected Queen cel lin the middle and another large reused? cell on the right with a larvae in it. Note this is one of the original nuc frames.
(http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/6141/img0019640x480po5.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Any advice appreciated.
I see 3 queen cells and one is capped. now close them up and let them be. about 9 more days and you will have a queen and about 2 weeks she will be laying.
Okies Dallas reckons all three are Queen cells so it looks like the emergency measures have worked, last weekend there was maybe 100 bees in this hive, now there are at least a thousand, thanks to the two frames of brood and nurse bees added.
Mick,
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/5771/mickwe2.jpg
I would consider making a wire mesh cage to cover each of the cells until all emerge.
This would allow you pick the best looking queen of the lot.
There can be a big visible difference.
I would not wait any longer than 4-5 days from the time the first one emerges.
If you choose not to, nature is reasonable at picking queens.
-Jeff
That sounds like good advice, but to be honest, with my experience and luck, it is really beyond me.
Mick, things are looking good with that hive, they are making a new queen, let them. Sit back and have a cold one. 8-)
......JP
(http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/6141/img0019640x480po5.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
mick see the queen cell in the middle that looks capped, I would pull that one outif it is capped, destroy it, small queen cells like that usually mean a small not well feed larva, if she hatches first and kills the big queen cells odds are they will be replacing her before long, I always destroy small queen cells if I find any because it usually mean not a very good queen, queens should be big and fat and their cells they were raised in should be also..
Those are supercedure cells not swarm cells. The high position on the frame is what makes the difference.
Sincerely,
Brendhan
But if it is the only one capped then perhaps they might not get another one going without another frame of brood.
Mick, this is good, the numbers in this weak colony have increased, they are raising a queen. There is some wonderful hope for this colony, it will take time to build up, but yea!!!! I am so happy for the advice that you received from your forum friends, and you listened......Have a wonderful and great day, Cindi
[...with my experience and luck, it is really beyond me.]
I don't think so, you should give yourself more credit.
Suck up a little courage and give it try, you will pleasantly surprise yourself with the outcome.
(and you will be doing right by your bees!)
[...small queen cells like that usually mean a small not well feed larva...]
I agree, the first capped queen cell does look rather small.
This is why I would cage over all and compare after all emerge.
[...if it is the only one...]
And this is also why I would cage over all of them.
-------
Some prefer to cutout the cell, I think it just increases the chances of knocking the queen off the royal jelly and killing the larvae. If you just make a wire screen box (#8 wire) to cover the cells, all that would emerge, will, but you will also have a choice. This could be done with window screen, but it must be securely pinned to the comb to prevent her escape.
-------
This is the physical evidence that creates the question 'does natural really know best?'
There has and likely will continue to be discussions if bees raise good queens under supercedure/emergency conditions. And I know some will say that bees will not select larvae that are too young to be a queen. And what that is probably true, it does not mean that they are not selecting the best larvae to be queen, but merely the oldest larvae that can still be a queen (regardless of quality). I believe that natures thought is that ANY queen is better than none, and that even poor queens can be superceded later, its just more important to have some egg laying machine in the hive than not.
My experience is that queens that emerge later are always better quality (and probably feed royal jelly longer) than the first to emerge (provided incubation conditions are kept ideal (no drops in temperature or cell mis-handling)). Royal jelly is the key in good ovarian development, and better ovaries make for better laying queens.
So while nature may cover her butt the soonest with an early queen, it does not mean that she does best by waiting for the best quality queen to emerge.
-Jeff
In this case, on this frame, they may not have had a lot of choices. Perhaps they picked the best that was available. Then as you said, get a laying queen so that later you have more to choose from and more time to prepare. Perhaps supercedure queens are better quality than emergency queens.
Thanks for the input everyone. Believe it or not, the enclosed queen cell is actually larger than the other two.
I kinda like JPs advice best, sitting back and having a cold one I can cope with!
Quote from: Jerrymac on February 02, 2008, 11:12:09 AM
But if it is the only one capped then perhaps they might not get another one going without another frame of brood.
there are 2 more going on that frame already and that one on the right is a bigger cell already and its not capped yet, when that one is capped that will be a lot better queen.
"I must confess that I like the appearance of large and handsome queens; but they do not as a rule prove to be the most prolific or profitable. Queens of medium size are generally the best. They have proven so with me. Good queens are those that keep their hives well filled with bees. The color or size has no effect on their fertility." -- Henry Alley, THE BEE-KEEPER'S HANDY BOOK I
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesalleymethod.htm#large_versus_small_queens
[The color or size has no effect on their fertility." -- Henry Alley, THE BEE-KEEPER'S HANDY BOOK I ]
Henry Alley was an authority on beekeeping some hundred years ago when less was understood about queen rearing and bee nutrition and biology. I would like to think that we have made some advices in our understanding that allows us to truly rear better queens, not merely guess at what we think observe.
Here is a bit more contemporary treatment of specifically the queen rearing subject:
"Queen rearing requires attention to detail. Queens vary greatly in size and weight; the greater the weight, the more ovarioles a queen has and the more eggs she will lay. The size of the queen is a direct result of how well she is fed and cared for during her growth and development, especially during the larval stage." - Rearing Queen Honey Bees by Dr. Roger Morse
Keep in mind, a queen will fatten as her ovarioles go into production and fill with eggs. This fattening will directly correlate to quality and quantity of pollen and nectar flow at the time she is fed.
This is also the reason that swarm queens can pass through queen excluders. In swarm condition, her egg production minimizes so that she will weigh less to fly further. That in turn minimizes her abdominal size, allowing her to pass through an excluder.
its just like I have learn when raising queens and using of cell protectors to protect the cell from being cleaned out after the the queen hatches, when a new queen hatches and has no royal jelly left in her cell she wasn't well fed (pinch her if she is smallish), when after the queen hatches and there is still royal jelly in the cell then you have a well fed queen, now this no way means you cant get a good queen if her cell is dry but doing it this way has produced better queens and has cut down on early superceding and queen failures, seems these queens that are well feed live longer and aren't replaced as nearly soon, but we all have different standards and this is the way I like to do it when raising queens and making sure I keep the queens that I think have a better chance of being a queen someone would want. in the last 2-4 years I have read on these forums of people talking about getting a new queen and the bee's replacing her the first year, you here people blaming it on drones and it could be but I think its also has a lot to do with the way queens are raised and selected now days, to a lot its all about the dollar and when you turn out more queens you make more money, not about selection that much any more, a few still check and make sure she is laying good patterns before selling and some if they see eggs then she is shipped out. it business, Dwight Porter (Redtractor) show me the above tip and it works.
This has been an interesting and informative topic. I spoke with Mick last night in ventrillo and he has just started keeping bees and likes the wait and see idea, at this point. He mentioned that the healthy hive is HOT! We talked about requeening, possibly even splitting the large hive and making two hives from one, but Mick says the hive albeit HOT, is producing honey at a pace he is comfortable with. For now he will work them with full protection and a good bit of smoke. John, aka our Beemaster was also on ventrillo and was concerned that the smaller, queenless nuc, making a queen, was getting aggressive genetics from the HOT hive, because the offsping they are rearing up to requeen from, came directly from the HOT hive. Mick had to run on after that. BTW, MIck's temps are like 90% humidity and hot, he is in mid summer.
Sincerely, JP
And we continue to keep breeding for bigger queens. If I were to assume health based on size, then a Pigmy is sick and a Masai is healthy... or in horse terms a pony is sick and a Clydesdale is healthy. Of course, this is not necessarily true.
[...John...was concerned that the ....queenless nuc...was getting aggressive genetics from the HOT hive...]
While this is a valid concern, because you know that half of the genetics (from the queen) have demonstrated the disposition, one still has to consider the workers get half their genetics from the drone too. The offspring's disposition still relies a great deal on the mating drone(s).
We addressed this concept in another thread, it is sort of the the glass is half-full, half-empty idea.
Having one 'hot' hive, makes folks look for more (even if it isn't relative to the conditions (dearth/flow/etc).
One should be cautious in evaluating environmental conditions when hives appear 'hot'.
I'm not considered hostile if I shoot someone breaking into my house robbing me.
But if I shoot my neighbor walking outside just because he is there - that's another issue altogether.
It doesn't necessarily mean I am 'wired' genetically to kill.
Nor does it mean that my kids will grow up killers either.
- You know those Aussies play a lot of football. And leather has a smell the bees don't much care for....
[And we continue to keep breeding for bigger queens.]
I think the idea is that we are breeding for healthier and more productive queens.
[If I were to assume health based on size...]
Given the education I know you have, if you have any respect for the person that I quoted then you should.
[...assume health based on size, then a Pigmy is sick...]
OK, now you are just being over dramatic. Lets try to stay within species we are talking about.
Everyone understands that horses/ponies have large variations in size for different pedigree races.
There isn't such a pronounced difference in our common honey bee races.
Certainly not a difference that warrants us measuring emerged queens to meet a standard of perfection.
There have been and will continue to be plenty of people that argue that they had this tiny queen that out laid everything they ever owned (probably for the first year, but it didn't likely sustain).
A queen without longevity doesn't qualify as being healthy, as it breeds weak survivorship.
I am a beehaver, not a beekeeper, if I evaluate my queen as being just good enough to survive today without any regard for the survivorship of the hive tomorrow and beyond. Selecting undersized queens with an unpredictable future of fertility and productivity seems foolish and careless, especially when one has the opportunity to provide the hive with a quality queen.
I respect that there is the opportunity for mis-matings and other uncontrollable conditions.
But what I am referring to here are the conditions that we can control by quality selection.
I agree that queens should also be judged by the residual royal jelly in the cell after emergence.
Arnt you guys talking about some queen cells that where induced through EMERGENCY superseder ANYWAY-not like they are something you where trying to maintain as a clean line -pot luck is pot luck and remember he is having FUN with the whole experience- remember fun :-D 8-) RDY-B
Quote from: rdy-b on February 03, 2008, 06:25:47 PM
Arnt you guys talking about some queen cells that where induced through EMERGENCY superseder ANYWAY-not like they are something you where trying to maintain as a clean line -pot luck is pot luck and remember he is having FUN with the whole experience- remember fun :-D 8-) RDY-B
Yes, its low key beekeeping, he is having fun and learning. BTW, right now, Geoff, Mick, Ken, Josh, Cwbees ( Chris) and John and I are all on ventrillo now.
......JP
>Given the education I know you have, if you have any respect for the person that I quoted then you should.
Certainly. And if I were to pick (in any species) the largest ones, odds are the largest ones where well fed. But if I continue to pick the largest ones then I'm also breeding for the largest ones. They may be large because they are well fed or they may be large because they are genetically larger. That's the point. I probably will get a slight advantage of ovarioles in a larger queen in the long run. But I will also be breeding for large queens. Many a small queen is as good or better than a given large queen.
Quote from: Michael Bush on February 04, 2008, 07:48:16 AM
They may be large because they are well fed or they may be large because they are genetically larger. That's the point.
now that is just crazy talk, a larva want be big if it doesn't have the food to eat to grow to that size, I wasnt saying every small queen or dry cell would be bad queens but odds are if you have a big healthy queen you will have a better queen , genetically large queens would be to feed all queens the same and pick the largest and beside they will only be big enough to lay in a cell, any bigger they cant fit or lay in a cell and the hive will die, odds are that almost all well fed queens will be large and a very very small % of queens would be small if well fed. we are talking about well fed and well cared for queens will be nice large queens almost every time, healthier and last longer before being replaced. if you dont agree with me thats ok, you have your own thing and I am happy for you if it works for you but the way I been talking is the way I want to raise queens and select what I think is the better queens, it aint the first time someone didn't agree with me ;)
Folks,
We aren't fighting, or have any beef with each other personally.
We're having an educated discussion and airing our beliefs and experiences.
I know on this side of the table I have a great deal of respect for MB experiences and education.
Respect, does not mean that I have to agree with everything that he puts forward, but I understand his line of thinking. In trying to be a better beekeeper, one must keep an open mind and consider points that we never thought we might accept as true. Sometimes this takes effort to re-hash an old topic and come to a new conclusion - an evolution in our thinking.
In many aspects of beekeeping, there are areas that are and will be out for debate for a long time.
Some things are bigger than man can reasonably wrap his mind around, other areas won't have the funding to research it.
With those undetermined areas, "...man will engage in reasonable debate until he is comfortable that he has established his belief and that it is root in a sound foundation of reasonable facts." [Charles S. Stubborn]
(OK, I just made that last quote up as a joke, its really my thinking.)
I realize that this exchange has probably risen beyond the scope of original thread. But the point of this board is for us to explore what comes next if we did something different (education). And our choice to do something is dependent upon building on our existing knowledge of the subject.
You will most likely hear from Mick what happens next in his story. But it helps if others with different experiences explain the road untraveled so that others may avoid the potholes and yet benefit from the diversity.
---------
MB,
I think we agree on almost all points about health.
There isn't much to be debated there.
You are concerned about eliminating the genetics of small queens that are normal, healthy, and well mated. Respectable, but I don't see that as an area that is threatened any time soon.
I think that healthy size is encoded in bee genetics pretty solidly.
And my experience has seen reasonable variation in worker/queen sizes between hives.
A natural blend or variation should maintain all viability of all sizes for a long time.
Man has screwed up some things pretty bad for this planet.
But I don't see us deliberately changing queen size for the long haul.
I don't the real benefit (or profits) to do such.
We might get crazy and splice in some fish genes to make them work in colder weather or rain. :roll:
Or maybe some sort of "Glow Worm" genetics to find the queen easier. :roll:
But I think natural queen size is pretty safe.
I'm just looking for the healthiest queen, and at this time, the only way that I can predict longevity is judge by size. Perhaps later man will devise a better way (maybe ultrasound/MRI prices will drop?).
Best to all in the up coming season.
Quote from: Michael Bush on February 04, 2008, 07:48:16 AM
Many a small queen is as good or better than a given large queen.
now dont get me wrong, when I graft and put in cell builders I have feeders on even if there is a flow going on just to make sure she has every chance to be a well fed queen, now when in a cell builder I will give her the chance to prove herself unless the cell was dry and she is small, if she is small and still has royal jelly in her cell she has a chance to prove herself, but almost every time I end up with large queens because they was well fed, and not just from one hive but from every hive, even if I grafted from a swarm I just got they will be large queens unless not fed well.. thats the point I am talking about and I dont think genetics has no play in it....
Quote from: NWIN Beekeeper on February 04, 2008, 11:21:56 AM
I realize that this exchange has probably risen beyond the scope of original thread.
yup guest it kinda got off topic when I said to cut out the small cell and let the bigger cell take over the hive, I still say that.. :)
>You are concerned about eliminating the genetics of small queens that are normal, healthy, and well mated. Respectable, but I don't see that as an area that is threatened any time soon.
But we've been breeding for bigger queens for more than a century. I think that's a threat to small healthy queens.
Quote from: Michael Bush on February 04, 2008, 10:08:39 PM
But we've been breeding for bigger queens for more than a century. I think that's a threat to small healthy queens.
but have queens really gotten bigger in the last century, I have had old timers tell me that they used to have huge queens in the 40's and 50's, just seems to me a queen will only get so big them if she is bigger then she can't lay in cells and hive die's, kinda like natures way to keep them from being to big.... I just dont think they will be bigger than normal unless they are on steroids or something ;) :)
Quote from: NWIN Beekeeper on February 03, 2008, 04:40:26 AM
[The color or size has no effect on their fertility." -- Henry Alley, THE BEE-KEEPER'S HANDY BOOK I ]
Henry Alley was an authority on beekeeping some hundred years ago when less was understood about queen rearing and bee nutrition and biology. I would like to think that we have made some advices in our understanding that allows us to truly rear better queens, not merely guess at what we think observe.
Not always, I'm finding that resorting to some of the methods used in the late 19th century and abandoned in the 20th century, have some very valid applications. But then, I don't know if any other beekeeper, than myself, who was mentored by a 19th century beekeeper in the 20th century.
QuoteHere is a bit more contemporary treatment of specifically the queen rearing subject:
"Queen rearing requires attention to detail. Queens vary greatly in size and weight; the greater the weight, the more ovarioles a queen has and the more eggs she will lay. The size of the queen is a direct result of how well she is fed and cared for during her growth and development, especially during the larval stage." - Rearing Queen Honey Bees by Dr. Roger Morse
I agree it requires attention to detail but bigger doesn't always mean better. I've had huge queens that were total busts and medium to small queens that were ripsnorters. I think the queens emerging from cells, regardless of size, that still have royal jelly (food) residue in them is a better indicator than size as it denotes a better fed bee which means a better fit bee.
QuoteKeep in mind, a queen will fatten as her ovarioles go into production and fill with eggs. This fattening will directly correlate to quality and quantity of pollen and nectar flow at the time she is fed.
This is also the reason that swarm queens can pass through queen excluders. In swarm condition, her egg production minimizes so that she will weigh less to fly further. That in turn minimizes her abdominal size, allowing her to pass through an excluder.
Yeah, and if you're queens above the excluder when she resumes laying she's just moved your brood nest up.
I was watching the weak hive last evening, just on dark. A bee was leaving this hive every second or so, I couldnt see where they were going due to the light, but a bee was entering every 20 seconds or so. I wonder if these were training flights or maybe they had been in there feeding all day and leaving to go back to where they came from? It was hard to tell if they were heading back to the good hive or not, so a bit of a mystery.
Again there were a couple of well formed larvae on the porch, either tossed out by the bees for some reason or maybe dragged out by ants? There were a few ants around, but I didnt see any ants actually dragging these larvae out.
This afternoon I had a good look, and there are huge drones? entering the weak hive and CONFIRMED regular sized bees leaving the weak hive and heading back to the good hive!
The entrance of the weak hive is reduced to 2 inches, they are 20 feet apart. No larvae on the porch today. This weekend I will have a look at the fame that has the queen cells on it. I hope the good hives assasins havent killed my budding queens and that isnt what the dead Larvae out front were!
Now I wonder if maybe the good hive has been killing off the weak hive, or robbing it blind, or both.
Im enjoying the different opinions that have been expressed.
BTW, at least I can crouch infront of the weak hive without being attacked.
Beekeeping isnt like maths: there isnt one correct answer, there are many I reckon.
reduce the entrance to 1/2 inch and obtain a robbing screen even if you have to make it yourself. Then feed both hives in order to prevent even more robbing.
Duh whats a robbing screen?
There is no shortage of food. Both hives are 1 metre from a tree in full flower that is the size of a small house! not to mention the thousands of Eucys in flower, all very strange to me!
I will reduce the entrance now!
Wow reduced it to barely the length of a bee, no more than 1/2 an inch. Instantly a big punch up going on, one wrestle to the death 2 against one, I dunno what side won.
Hmm can hives be too close? Surely not from the pics I have seen.
I reckon this huge tree in flower might be causing some territorial problems?
Now, should I pinch a frame of food from the good hive or add another frame of last years honey (frozen and thawed as a precaution against wax moth larvae)? This would not have any scent of the good hive on it.
You know, I have a sneaking suspicion that the queen cells might have been destroyed by the vampire bees from the good hive.
I will bring forward the inspection plans and have a look tomorrow after work.
michael Bush
10-18-2004, 08:37 AM
It's a dilemma. I think feeding is the leading cause of robbing, especially if you put any kind of essential oils in the syrup because the bees are recruited by smell.
You can try reducing both entrances.
You can try a robber screen.
You can try not feeding the weak colony and just steal frames of capped stores from the strong colony instead.
You can try open feeding so the strong and the weak colony have access to it.
You can try to equalize the hives more by putting some emerging brood in the weak colony or shaking off some bees from open brood at the entrance. The nurse bees will go in the nearest hive and the field bees will return to their own hive.
If you don't get the robbing under control the strong hive will probably kill the weaker hive.
Sounds like this is on the money
Tis really a rapid learning experience this battle oif wills, good fun but a bit of a worry. And of coourse, I appreciate everyones input.
and this from Michael
I've noticed that queenless hives get robbed much more often than queenright hives. I had always thought it was because the robbers kill the queen, and they probably do, but when I make a nuc queenless in the fall just before I combine them with another nuc they seem to get robbed almost immediately.
We have something in common lol!
Im gunna reduce the entrance on the good hive by half just to piss them off!
Ill also shake another frame of nurse bees from the good hive onto the weak one, just coz the good one is making me mad!
Also I could move the weak one 25 metres to the front yard/
Mick, robber screens can be any apparatus to dissuade bees from easy entry into a colony being robbed. To on Michael's website, you will learn there. I have two screens that I used this year for a short time, one was just a window insert and the other was an actual device my Husband made for me. They really help. The bees within the colony soon figure out how to get out, the robbers have a harder time trying how to get in. Reducing the entrances is the best thing of all too. Good luck, and have a wonderful day, Cindi
(http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/6169/robberscreenay9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/9937/robberscreen1ii1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Mick, I don't know if you are using screened bottom boards or not, but I agree that moving the weaker hive is a good idea. You could also seal the entrance of the weak hive for a day or two as long as they have food stores and ventilation they will be fine. This way the strong hive can't do jack while the weak hive is recovering from their losses. This will definitely piss the strong hive off, mate! ;) :evil:
.....JP
Not a good day weather wise to open things up. I have placed flywire infront of the hive and youre right, it creates a bit of confusion, within 20 minutes the message seems to have gone out "no more food here" the masses are now hanging around there own hive.
Once I can get another frame of nurse bees and or brood in there, combined with the fly screen and maybe a move of the hive, things might turn the corner.
I HAVE to get in there soon to see what has hapened to the queen cells!
The flyscreen seems to have done the trick, its a bit cool today so I havent had a look inside, will do when it warms up a bit!
Had a look today. The queen cells are gone, either hatched or destroyed? who knows. I didnt spot any obvious new eggs or old, a few of the transferred brood remain to emerge.
I spotted two different looking bees, no bands on the abdomen like the rest, more of a copper colour, the drones have bands so maybe 2 queens?
Im wondering if I souldnt transfer more brood from the other box? I reckon another frame, what does everyone think? Honey flow is set to really fire in the next month.
The other hive continues to go beserk, in work and nature.
I heard an ususual noise from the hive the other night, a real buzz. Ive just listedned to a queen piping audio file and Im 99% sure thats what Ive heard.
Mick,
If you have a frame with some open and capped brood,it sure wouldn't hurt to transfer it if it seems like enough bees to cover the brood.You want to swell the population as fast as you can. I had swarms shortly after a queen piped so be on the lookout! Hopefully you just have a new queen emerged.
Mick, I am pretty sure that you had a queen emerge, her piping is her death song she is singing to the other queen(s), she will kill any other queens that are in cells that have not yet emerged. Now.....shortly, within 2 weeks you should have a laying queen. She will hang around the colony for about 5 days, head out on her nuptual flight, return mated, and be laying eggs in a few more days. In about two weeks from the day that you heard the piping, then expect to see eggs. You could add some capped brood from the other stronger colony. But it sounds like you have will have a young prolific queen for your anticipated honeyflow that is coming soon, yeah!!! Sounds like things are going to work out. Have a wonderful and greatest of this day, lovin' our lives we all live. Cindi
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesmisc.htm#robberscreen
I had a queen with some workers sent to me last year. I had her in the queen cage on the coffee table and I heard her start piping. I was surprised by how loud it was. Since she was the only queen in the cage and there weren't any outher around I don't know why she was piping but it was amazing to hear. I have never heard it happen in the actual hive.
Sincerely,
Brendhan
Yes it was a strange noise, it was around dusk and I was standing outside the hive, looking at it and cursing, and then it started, like a giant mosquito, or a fly trapped in a spiders web noise.
The timings so spot on it had to be piping.
Cindi, Im watching the calendar and Ken given wat Cindi has said, Im now down to 50/50 as to add more brood. I might let the weather decide over the next few days for me.
Not good news. No sign of eggs in the weak hive, will give it another week. Plenty of chewed cappings on the floor so robbing is still going on.
Only one frame of brood in the good hive, spotted an old queen cell. Dunno whats going on.
If theres no action in a week, I will combine the two.