Hello,
I'm a total rookie here (1st year) so don't take any of this to seriously.
I've been thinking about airflow in the hive and the design of it.
Just to be clear this is in regard to overwintering .
Why is the hole in the inner cover in the center?
In my mind's eye I picture this, air comes into the hive via the front entrance.
The heat generated by the bees rises up (of course) the amount of heat dictates how fast the airflow
is, drawing cold air into the hive and going out the vent in the inner cover or whatever people have setup as an air escape on the top. Taking moisture with it which is good.
If the hole is in the center of the inner cover and the cluster in under it the cold air than is pulled right up through them and since that is where the main heat is, it would draw at a faster rate.
To be clear I have no scientific evidence, this is totally shooting from the hip thinking.......by none the less .... a rookie!
So, I was thinking of this...what if you had a SBB with say a 3" x 8" slot cut in the slide in board (for lack of a better term)
and it was at the back of the hive and the hole in the inner cover was also at the back wouldn't that keep the air flow away from the bees remove moisture and move the air at a slower rate because their would be less heat.
I'm going to go one step more, and ask why can't the inner cover be tilted back so any condensation runs to the back and then it would never drip on the bees.
I'm telling myself I'm crazy for posting this ...... BUT who else would I ask?
I hope you bees are well,
Paul
Good thoughts! I read about using a reg. old bottom board uside down with an entrance reducer and the smallest hole being used. That sounded good, but I wondered rather or not to leave the inner cover in place or just leave it out. My bees tend to fill up extra space with comb, and I don't want them building any comb this close to winter. I also thought I would cover the bb with black coragated plastic to shed rain and snow. Also considering using the same to wrap 3 sides of my hives leaving the front(Southern Exposure) open. Keep on thinking!
I think the hole is in the center because that's where it's always been. My homemade inner covers don't have a hole at all and the bees do fine. I don't use the "porter style" escapes for numerous reasons and I don't see the need for the inner cover under a pail feeder so I just don't do it. I build mine with a notch on one of the short dimensions (front) for a top entrance/vent.
Quote from: try2beegood on November 05, 2008, 08:33:49 PM
If the hole is in the center of the inner cover and the cluster in under it the cold air than is pulled right up through them and since that is where the main heat is, it would draw at a faster rate.
If there is to be a hole in the inner cover, it's got to be placed somewhere. My opinion is one spot is as good as any as the cluster moves around through the winter, they are not necessarily in the center. As long as bottoms and tops are not wide open (WFO) for winter: I do not believe cold air gets "pulled up through them" or driven too harshly by wind. Rather, warm moist air is generated by the cluster and rises through convection. Best to get the excess moisture out of the hive.
Why can't the inner cover be tilted back? It can, but considering that many beekeepers tilt bottom boards forward to prevent water from collecting, the act of tilting an inner cover toward the back may simply level it and defeat ones efforts.
Don't worry you're not crazy for postings like this, you're crazy because you keep bees.
>Why is the hole in the inner cover in the center?
1) it allows a minute amount of upward ventilation while still maintaining a double wall for the top to cut down on condensation.
2) it provides a hole to feed through with a jar (which I prefer to make the size of a quart jar lid when I make my own)
3) it provides a place to puff some smoke when opening.
4) it provides a place to put a Porter bee escape (hence the shape)
The addition of a notch is a big improvement as it allows the moist air at the top to get out which cuts down even more on condensation and allows the bees an exit even when the snow is deep or the dead bees plug up a bottom entrance.
Hello-
I am also a total rookie who has been pondering this same question of humidity/condensation caused by the bees.
I read somewhere in some ancient book, that at one time in England they used to pack straw on top of the inner cover, (under the English style roof) to help insulate and wick moisture, as good dry straw will help trap warm air and absorb moisture at the same time...
I also have wondered..this sounds crazy too...about using an english style roof and installing a cake pan style vent or even a ridge vent like they use on houses to help with ventilation in wrapped hives. I would think, that an insulated hive, sides, maybe top, whole hive kept level, with a ridge style vent cap might just work..keeping bees warm and yet ventilating.?????
On further thoughts, why is the most common style roof flat? The whole tipping the hive for water drainage just doesn't make sense to me...why not a peaked roof, have some overhang and forget the tipping?
I'm sure the experts will chime in here, with great ideas, just my crazy newbie thoughts...
>On further thoughts, why is the most common style roof flat?
- Cheap to make
- Keeps the bricks and rocks that are needed to keep it from blowing off, from sliding off the roof
- allows stacking boxes and setting equipment on them
- They aren't ALL flat. See the English Garden Hive in Brushy Mt.
Wow, great replies!!
I'm so glad I can share "bee" idea's with you folks....cause my Wife is surely sick of hearing them. :-D
Quote from: Michael Bush on November 05, 2008, 10:00:21 PM
1) it allows a minute amount of upward ventilation while still maintaining a double wall for the top to cut down on condensation.
The addition of a notch is a big improvement as it allows the moist air at the top to get out which cuts down even more on condensation and allows the bees an exit even when the snow is deep or the dead bees plug up a bottom entrance.
Michael, when you say double wall do you mean the airspace created between the inner and outer cover. (I love your website by the way)
I think I get it now! Tell me if I'm nut's
Quote from: BenC on November 05, 2008, 09:56:23 PM
If there is to be a hole in the inner cover, it's got to be placed somewhere. My opinion is one spot is as good as any as the cluster moves around through the winter, they are not necessarily in the center. As long as bottoms and tops are not wide open (WFO) for winter: I do not believe cold air gets "pulled up through them" or driven too harshly by wind. Rather, warm moist air is generated by the cluster and rises through convection. Best to get the excess moisture out of the hive.
The hole placement is not important, where the hole is in the inner cover or where the bottom intake air is coming in...front, side or wherever.
The air coming in doesn't actually "flow" through the hive but only replace's the warm air that slowly vent's out the top.
So, if my thinking is correct...than the size of the "top" vent controls where the level of heat stays and the cold air stays in the lower deep.
I read some posts that said they leave the bottom fully "open" in the winter and they have no trouble, that must be why.
Too much top vent would allow the cold air to get higher into the hive.
So, moisture and condensation than can't really be controlled by ventilation alone.
That's why "Robo" told me to stop feeding because the bee's wouldn't have time to cap it and there would be too much moisture in the hive.
Reducing a source of moisture to start with is very good advice!!
Can anyone suggest any books that would have this issue explained (preferrably with diagrams) I would like to have a real understanding of this.
Thanks to you all!!
Paul
>Michael, when you say double wall do you mean the airspace created between the inner and outer cover.
Yes.
>(I love your website by the way)
Thanks.
>I think I get it now!
Good.
> Tell me if I'm nut's
You want to keep bees... isn't it obvious?
>The hole placement is not important, where the hole is in the inner cover or where the bottom intake air is coming in...front, side or wherever.
The air coming in doesn't actually "flow" through the hive but only replace's the warm air that slowly vent's out the top.
But that is a "flow" is it not? There is air coming in, going through and going out.
>Too much top vent would allow the cold air to get higher into the hive.
Too much of any vent would be bad. But a little at the top and a little at the bottom seems to work well.
>So, moisture and condensation than can't really be controlled by ventilation alone.
Why not?
>Can anyone suggest any books that would have this issue explained (preferrably with diagrams) I would like to have a real understanding of this.
I don't think anyone understand it completely.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesscientificstudies.htm#overwintering
Some good reading on ventilation here http://www.beeworks.com/d_e_details.html
Very interesting article :) Thank you for sharing! I think the DE idea, combined with maybe a layer of straw or insulation inside the insulation box would probably work out nicely. Could even use a pail feeder in there :-\ Maybe add on an English style roof, to facilitate water/snow drainage...hmmm...I'm excited! So many ideas!!!! Thanks again for the link!
My first winter with the bees was terrible. They made it ok, but the hive ended up a moldy mess. I had the SBB open all winter, but never provided an upper vent.
Now I use the Honey Run Apiaries inner cover. There is styrofoam insulation in the top and a side vent. Last winter I did not have any moisture problems at all. Not even one sign of mildew.
Here is the link
http://www.honeyrunapiaries.com/store/season-inner-cover-p-50.html?osCsid=fd9ba90f8f126026f96873b954f654f0
Micheal,
I drew this to attempt to explain my thought process.
1) This was my first thought of what would be happening.
the center hole in the inner cover would produce a chimney effect and the greatest draw would be
at the main heat source, so the cooler air would be drawn up right through the cluster.
Wherever it was in the hive.
2) This was and idea I had about the venting taking place at the rear of the hive to keep the draw away from the cluster, there would be less heat and the draw of cold air would be slower.
3) After reading some other post's mainly from people who said they leave the SBB open all winter and have no problem I concluded that the "flow" of air doesn't move as fast and as streamlined as in fig.1 & 2
The level of heat or cold air at the lower deep would be dictated by the volume of air venting out the top.
That's why I thought that condensation couldn't be controlled by venting alone because you would be limited to how much is being vented...too much would allow cold air to get higher into the hive.
Are any of these even close to correct?
(http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/6458/hiveflowhh2.th.jpg) (http://img230.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hiveflowhh2.jpg)(http://img230.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif) (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)
I read your overwintering link and learned a great deal thank you for providing such a great resource!!
Man, I got up at 4:30 am and made this drawing cause I couldn't stop thinking about it..I think i have a problem....I know my wife thinks so. :roll:
Just want to point out I have a great respect for the "old school" ways of doing things that's where I want to start my education about bees and then go from there after I get more experience. :?
Thanks,
I hope your bees do well.
Thanks, for all the great links....
Quote from: WayneW on November 07, 2008, 06:51:50 AM
Some good reading on ventilation here http://www.beeworks.com/d_e_details.html
Quote from: Michael Bush on November 06, 2008, 11:01:33 PM
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesscientificstudies.htm#overwintering
Quote from: BenC on November 05, 2008, 09:56:23 PM
Don't worry you're not crazy for postings like this, you're crazy because you keep bees.
That seem's too be the general consensus.....That's one thing about beekeeping I can relate too.
Quote from: annette on November 07, 2008, 10:09:59 PM
My first winter with the bees was terrible. They made it ok, but the hive ended up a moldy mess. I had the SBB open all winter, but never provided an upper vent.
Now I use the Honey Run Apiaries inner cover. There is styrofoam insulation in the top and a side vent. Last winter I did not have any moisture problems at all. Not even one sign of mildew.
http://www.honeyrunapiaries.com/store/season-inner-cover-p-50.html?osCsid=fd9ba90f8f126026f96873b954f654f0
Thanks, Annette...so do you keep your SBB closed now w/this new cover?
Quote from: gguidester on November 05, 2008, 09:40:19 PM
My bees tend to fill up extra space with comb, and I don't want them building any comb this close to winter.
Do bees draw comb or cap open cells in winter? That's somthing I was wondering about.
Thanks,
Quote from: charlotte on November 05, 2008, 10:10:32 PM
just my crazy newbie thoughts...
Oh good,so I'm not the only crazy newbie :-D
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply "your" crazy.
Keep Thinking...I say it's better to have crazy idea's than no Idea's at all!
For moisture I use a empty shalow super with no inner cover . Place newspaper accross the frames covering 1/2 to 3/4 ofthe frames . Dump a bunch of sugar on the paper and with a shim tilt hive slightly toward the end with sugar . Condensation goes into the sugar bees eat the sugar.
I keep the SBB open all winter even with this cover on so the mites and anything else can fall down through the bottom and away from the hive.
I think people put too much into the whole ventilation thing about winter and bees.
I agree, that in mimicking many feral hives, that some absorption item may me good. In many old trees and natural cavities, moisture is somewhat controlled by a layer of dead wood, etc. In our nice 3/4 inch painted on the outside boxes, we may have increased a moisture concern.
But if left alone, and the boxes not opened by the beekeeper, the bees would over time have the upper chamber sealed tight with propolis. (I do not use inner cover notches and entrances.)
I think the whole idea and need for much of the moisture concerns is directly related by the feeding of bees late in the fall by sugar syrup. This adds a tremendous amount of moisture to the hive that would not be there if but not for the beekeeper.
I use upper entrances. But the highest one is at least half way down the top box. This allows for "some" ventilation without loosing the dead air space, which is beneficial to late winter and early spring brood development. But the bees will close off or limit these entrances as they see fit, long before winter starts. Meaning late season manipulations are not good to throw at your bees as they have no time to adjust.
Quote from: BjornBee on November 09, 2008, 07:29:52 AM
I think people put too much into the whole ventilation thing about winter and bees.
I agree, that in mimicking many feral hives, that some absorption item may me good. In many old trees and natural cavities, moisture is somewhat controlled by a layer of dead wood, etc. In our nice 3/4 inch painted on the outside boxes, we may have increased a moisture concern.
BjornBee,
I really get what your saying, I never thought about it that way.
That would be something worth learning more about....feral hives that is.
You made a great point about feeding and late manipulations before winter.
Good stuff......
Thanks for sharing you knowledge.
Paul
I think the ventilation and condensation issues are very regional. When I lived in the panhandle of Nebraska and Eastern Wyoming and even the front range of Colorado, it was really not an issue. Here, however, some winters it's a big issue. When condensation makes a dome of ice on the top that then melts and drips on the cluster it is a major stress. I've often found a lot of mold come spring when there is a lack of ventilation. On the other hand it only takes a very small amount of through ventilation to make a large difference in this.
Quote from: Michael Bush on November 09, 2008, 04:45:58 PM
I think the ventilation and condensation issues are very regional. When I lived in the panhandle of Nebraska and Eastern Wyoming and even the front range of Colorado, it was really not an issue. Here, however, some winters it's a big issue. When condensation makes a dome of ice on the top that then melts and drips on the cluster it is a major stress. I've often found a lot of mold come spring when there is a lack of ventilation. On the other hand it only takes a very small amount of through ventilation to make a large difference in this.
I second that.
During 50 years in beekeeping I found that solid bottom boards (BB) and telescopic tops (TT) often made for a a tremendous amounts of condensation here in the PNW. Sometimes very little, it all depended on the severity of the fall/winter/spring weather.
But what I did find, consistantly, was that even a little condensation can make huge die off of bees in a hive.
In nature most feral hives have entrances toward the top of the colony that makes for a natural upper vent. The surrounding wood (building or tree) does absorb a portion of the condensation but the kiln dried and painted wood of a langstroth hive prevents that absorbtion.
An attic full of cloth, straw, hay, or whatever in a hive does absorb an amount of moisture, but at some point it becomes saturated negating it's usefulness and becoming a hazard.
Ventilation is good in that allows the escape, rather than the buildup, of condensation. A small vent is often all that is necessary.
A vent at the top of the hive also means the bees only have to work air in one direction when dehyrating moisture form nectar instead of 2 directions in a hive with no upper vent. In a conventional (TT & BB) hive the bees must force air up one side and down the other, in and out the same entrance.
All my experience in this matter was bore out this year when I went to bottomless hives with slatted racks and a vented top (reversable BB with entrance reducer). It also resulted in hives with no ants or earwigs in them.