Today is suppose to be in the high 60's so I thought I would feed. When I went to the hive I noticed the entrance was full of active bees coming and going. I opened the hive and saw all the dry sugar I put in there for an emergency was GONE! I filled the feeder up with syrup and poured more dry sugar on top of the frames, on a piece of construction paper. After about 30 minutes I noticed the coming and going had stopped except for a few bees. I guess they figured they dont need to fly for a couple of days because the food was now there.
Shawn, how much and how quickly did they use it? Was there any left around the edges, or was it all gone? I just recently put mine on here. I put a lot more on than last year. Last year I only used about 8 pounds at a time, then patched the middle after they had eaten through.
I guess I dont know what you are talkling about "how much." I poured 2 quarts of syrup in the feeder and it is gone in less than 2 days. There is no crystals left on the walls or on the bottom of the feeder. They clean everything out so good. I poured a cup of dry sugar on the construction paper and checked it about a week later and it was gone. I only open up on days it is close to the 60's and I dont think we'll have too many more of those days.
Quote from: Shawn on December 04, 2008, 10:46:24 PM
I guess I dont know what you are talkling about "how much." I poured 2 quarts of syrup in the feeder and it is gone in less than 2 days. There is no crystals left on the walls or on the bottom of the feeder. They clean everything out so good. I poured a cup of dry sugar on the construction paper and checked it about a week later and it was gone. I only open up on days it is close to the 60's and I dont think we'll have too many more of those days.
How much is answered by "a cup". In order to feed in a quantity that will really amount to anything, be it for feed or moisture control, you need to feed more like in the 8 to 15 Pound range of dry sugar rather than just a cup.
Here's a picture of what I rate as a small pile:
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z219/dug_6238/Fall%20and%20Winter%20Bee%20photos%202007-2008/100_1624.jpg)
I don't see any pic.
It's there now...
Gotcha. I guess I will have to add on a super and put more in. Ill wait for the next warm day, hopefully soon.
Quote from: Shawn on December 05, 2008, 03:07:12 PM
Gotcha. I guess I will have to add on a super and put more in. Ill wait for the next warm day, hopefully soon.
Turn the inner top so the deeper spacing side is down and then pile the granulated sugar onto the paper more or less evenly. Make sure the paper is cut so the bees can access the sugar from the sides. It should hold about a 4-5 lb bag without having to add spacers or supers.
Quote from: Brian D. Bray on December 06, 2008, 09:01:13 PM
Quote from: Shawn on December 05, 2008, 03:07:12 PM
Gotcha. I guess I will have to add on a super and put more in. Ill wait for the next warm day, hopefully soon.
Turn the inner top so the deeper spacing side is down and then pile the granulated sugar onto the paper more or less evenly. Make sure the paper is cut so the bees can access the sugar from the sides. It should hold about a 4-5 lb bag without having to add spacers or supers.
Brian, this information is worth its weight in gold, good. Have a wonderful, awesome life and day, health. Cindi
Quote from: Brian D. Bray on December 06, 2008, 09:01:13 PM
Quote from: Shawn on December 05, 2008, 03:07:12 PM
Gotcha. I guess I will have to add on a super and put more in. Ill wait for the next warm day, hopefully soon.
Turn the inner top so the deeper spacing side is down and then pile the granulated sugar onto the paper more or less evenly. Make sure the paper is cut so the bees can access the sugar from the sides. It should hold about a 4-5 lb bag without having to add spacers or supers.
Brian, Actually, The bees will cluster up underneath the sugar pile. It's ideal that they access the pile from underneath, this way during the winter they don't have to break the cluster to access feed. This is the beauty of this method in that it gives us a way to winter feed even when it's too cold for the bees to break the cluster. You can make the pile can go out to the edge on as many as 3 sides, just make sure that when you lay your newspaper down, it reaches part or post of the way up the side of whichever side where you intend to have sugar against the inner side of the super. If the colony drifts to either side, they won't run out quite as quick. The dome formed underneath the pile will also retain a small amount of heat, then when they break through the pile, it can just be patched with a new 'plug' of newspaper or paper towel, then filled again with sugar. I had to refill once last year on two hives.
Russians breaking through, ready for a patch:
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z219/dug_6238/100_1871.jpg)
As it warms they'll continue to clean it. It may not be as important to patch the hole when it get warmer because due to them being able to break cluster, but that's personal preference and personal judgment. Caution is perfectly fine there if one wants to patch. later as well.
Hungry Italians later close to spring:
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z219/dug_6238/100_1867.jpg)
toward the end of the winter/early spring, if they're not using it, you'll see them hauling it out, and you can just give them a personal assist by taking the last blocks out...
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z219/dug_6238/100_1869.jpg)
I hope this is useful or at least on target. I'm not countering Brian but I had been looking at it a little differently. Please let me know if I need recalibrated, but this is how it worked for me last year. I hope the photos are supportive.
Very respectfully,
-1of6
WOW those are great pic's If my hive get's light I think I will give it a go.
excellent info for me thanks alot !! I need to feed mine right now.
QuoteBrian, Actually, The bees will cluster up underneath the sugar pile. It's ideal that they access the pile from underneath, this way during the winter they don't have to break the cluster to access feed. This is the beauty of this method in that it gives us a way to winter feed even when it's too cold for the bees to break the cluster.
You are correct in pointing out the ommission in my directions...although I've found that just poking a few holes between the frames will suffice. I thought about it at the beginning of the post then forgot to add it in, it's sometimes hard to keep your mind focused when you're in a lot of pain.
Ok I had a warmer day today and addd a super on. I laid down some newspaper and added some sugar. it seems there is a large gap now with the extra super. Will the bees loose too much heat this way? If the paper is clear across the frames do the bees chew threw the paper? Really worried they will be too cold now!!
shawn, for that reason, i pour sugar on the inner cover. it is true that i can not put as much on, but usually have enough days in 40s + that i can refill. i don't know if your weather will allow for that. something to consider.
Quote from: kathyp on December 26, 2008, 03:41:08 PM
shawn, for that reason, i pour sugar on the inner cover. it is true that i can not put as much on, but usually have enough days in 40s + that i can refill. i don't know if your weather will allow for that. something to consider.
Kathy is there a hole in the inner cover that the bees come up to feed through? Have a great day, health. Cindi
Haven't seen pics like that before. Good stuff. One question, do the bees prefer this granulated or the syrup? I am assuming that you feed this method due to winter time temps.
cindi, there is a hole in the center of the inner cover. in spring i put the jar feeders over that hole.
Perhaps it's unfounded, but my personal fear about puting the sugar above the inner cover would be that unless the cluster came up right in the center of the box, they may not be able to access the sugar because the inner cover was in the way. This has always been my reasoning for moving the inner-cover up above the empty super.
Has anyone seen this issue in practice?
Quote from: 1of6 on December 27, 2008, 08:35:34 PM
Perhaps it's unfounded, but my personal fear about puting the sugar above the inner cover would be that unless the cluster came up right in the center of the box, they may not be able to access the sugar because the inner cover was in the way. This has always been my reasoning for moving the inner-cover up above the empty super.
Has anyone seen this issue in practice?
In practive the inner top is left in place above the brood chamber, putting an empty super on the hive (unless using jar or can feeders) just creates a large open space that serves no purpose other than to suck heat out of the cluster area.
The space between the telescopic hive and the inner cover will hold about 5lbs of sugar. The bees can easily access this through the hole for the Porter bee escape without any change of configuration in the bee hive. Feeding granulated or powdered sugar to bees during the winter this way is a snap because the cluster doesn't have to be exposed as the inner top is not removed. Those inner tops that have been modified to hold feeder jars work just as well as the holes are slightly bigger and allow more bees access at one time.
Brian,
I didn't realize until I looked today just how vastly different our locations were. From what I found it looks like your general area ranges from near sea-level up to around 220ft above sea level, and humidity levels a lot higher than ours. Temps seem to be a little higher on average, but I didn't find a good 'longterm/historical' temperature record for your area. Looks like you're directly effected by that Pacific North-West flow as well, which I'm sure brings you a pretty varied set of temps throughout the winter. I can't imagine that you don't have some serious cold whipped your way in off the Pacific, but I also imagine that you have more pronounced temperature fluctuations thoughout the year as well.
We are at 2000ft elevation (zip code 15938 if you want to compare weather) and I suspect that we get the same cold/lows that you get. We occasionally see wind chills of -15F, but I can remember lower. I'm sure our humidity levels are nowhere comparable to yours. I think our temps may stay consistently lower than yours, but I'm not 100% sure of that. We have seen couple-month spells where the bees are clustered tight and don't leave, and for that fact don't move very far across the comb.
During these times of not being able to break cluster, I find my biggest worry about folks in my area putting the feed above the inner cover. It just seems like for those with clusters in the corners or at the edges of the box, the inner cover would form a very effective barrier between the bees and the feed. I've always looked at the advantage provided by top of the cluster being able to move up into the sugar pile, and with the inner cover on, I don't see that being able to happen in cases where the cluster is in a corner. Perhaps this is only a problem for smaller colonies who have situated themselves in a corner and experience long spells of cold weather where they can't break cluster or move very far. I know that I have been very satisfied with the amount that can be fed in a 'pile', as well as the bees ability to cluster into the sugar. In terms of a ceiling, the dome produced in the sugar pile does provide this to some extent, with allowance for ventilation at whichever edge of the box the sugar is not piled out to. I worry that in situations where the sugar is above the inner cover, the bees must be able to leave the cluster to be able to go up above the inner cover, unless the cluster is right at the center, and even then, the amount of sugar that they can reach without leaving the cluster is somewhat limited.
The same might be applicable for fondant feeding, but I haven't tried that yet so I have yet to see this in practice for my area. I hear that there's an old fellar (just kidding) up in Lewisberry PA that feeds fondant, but I haven't seen his operation yet.
Maybe the differences in how these work for our areas hinge off differences in weather, or maybe it's just purely management differences. Again, I could be worrying about things that are inconsequential, but it seems like an inner cover could end up as a trap if used this way in my area. I'll still listen, but I do have that worry in the back of my mind. I do hear you about the size of the feeder area and have been thinking about this since last year, and have switched to shallows where possible for this.
Sorry for the book, but hopefully you can see my reasoning for my reservations. I'll definitely watch mine this year and see 'how far out toward the edges' they move, and this might be an early indicator (minus the wooden barrier) of how well this would go in my area. For hives with big clusters, I think it could possibly work, but the ones that I'm feeding this year are not so big. We'll see...I'm still trying to keep an open mind, but I've just got a lot of local factors (or what I believe to be) that I'm still hung up on. It's worked so well for me with the empty feeder directly above the cluster that I'm just really having a hard time envisioning the change.
Uh-oh, am I getting old and set in my ways? :lol:
Happy Holidays! Brian - how about some pictures of your PNW winter out there?? We'd love to see some.
your temps are probably more like mine. try Sandy, OR and see.
i have no problem with them coming up and getting the sugar if they need it. consider: they don't break cluster to eat in extrem cold anyway. when it warms enough to need food, they will travel all over the hive to bring it back to the cluster...including the inner cover, if that's where food is.
They will get better access to sugar on top of paper as they can chew through and the cluster is in contact with the sugar instead of having to go up and around to the sugar.
Quote from: LocustHoney on December 27, 2008, 03:35:42 PM
...One question, do the bees prefer this granulated or the syrup? I am assuming that you feed this method due to winter time temps.
As for preference, it's always going to be syrup, but that's trumped by true nectar as well. Your last sentence does spell out the need for different feeding techniques during the winter. Trying to feed syrup in the winter creates a host of problems in all but the warmest locations. Granulated sugar and fondant both get you around many of these problems, and each has its own host of benefits that offset a portion of the drawbacks.
If all has gone well though, and if enough stores are present going into winter to make it through, you should never have to so worry about emergeny feeding other than having the knowledge in your management arsenal.
QuoteHappy Holidays! Brian - how about some pictures of your PNW winter out there?? We'd love to see some.
I'll say it again, when it comes to getting pictures off a camera and onto a computer, I'm a dunce, when it comes to getting pictures from the computer to the internet I'm a bigger dunce. Heck, it took me 2 years just to figure out how to use the "Quote" and "Modify" buttons on the upper right corners of our postings. I'll leave the pics to Poka-bee and Oldenglish.
Where I'm at (152ft asl*) the topography of the island runs from 0 asl to 1394 asl, most of the San Juan Islands run in that catagory as they are volcanic lava domes. I get a lot of interesting weather because of the varying wind currents that can come down off the Frazier River in BC (where Cindi lives) which we call a NorthEaster, to northerly winds down the Strait of St. George between Vancouver Island and the BC Mainand, westerly winds through the Strait of San Juan De Fuca, and southerly winds up from lower Puget Sound. We also occasionally get Chinook winds from Eastern Washington that sweep down through the mountain passes from Eastern Washington (In California they get the same type of winds they call Santa Anna winds that come down through the mountains from the Deserts of Nevada and Eastern California). I actually live northeast of Victoria on Vancouver Island, the capital of BC.
As for feeding bees, I agree that when feeding granulated sugar it should be as close as possible to the cluster location which is why, when my daughter did it, I had her pour the sugar onto an 8X11 sheet of paper laid atop the frames. 5lbs feed both hives, but in feeding she found out they had plenty of stores so I fully expect to find the sugar still there when I start to feed in February.
*asl=above sea level
Well since it got into the 60s today I decided I would feed some syrup. I opened the hive and saw the bees were not even touching the sugar I had put in there from a month ago without the super on. I tried to look into the frames, without pulling them out, and saw some capped cells, honey cells. Letting the worries get to me I took the super off, put the paper back down and just thined out the sugar, put the inner cover on, and sealed it back up. The bees went straight for the syrup.