I have found a place near me that sells Nucs with the following breeds,
Italian
Minnesota Hygenic
New world cornolian hybrid
Russian
Buckfast
Old world carnolian
I know a little about italian and russian but next to nothing about the others, I would be interested in knowing other folks opinions on these breeds.
Additionally I am also wondering if any description would be accurate, when a member of our club was asked what type of bees he has he replied "genuine mutts" his reasoning is that once the queen goes on the mating flight he has no control over who she mates with and as such could not be considered a pure bee strain.
i think he's right. i paid the extra for russians when i started. i really liked them and they were great producers. a few years and queens later, it doesn't make a difference. the only way to keep them russian is to buy mated russian queens every time you need to requeen. you have to decide if the cost is worth it. my cut out hives have done equally well and you know they are mutts.
it's all in the cost/benefit analysis.
Oldenglish,
As for the first part....
It is VERY hard to actually perpetuate a line of bees long term, while selecting for such things that some may value such as overwintering, being acclimatized to an area, etc. So, for any place to offer that many lines, makes the possibility of getting anything more than a breeder who breeds first generation queens, a slim reality. I do not know anything about the operation you mentioned. But if your wanting to buy regionalized or acclimatized bees, and something more than the standard offering of buying first generation daughters of breeder queen offered by most breeders, than I would suggest an operation that specializes in one or two lines.
Anyone can order breeder queens across the board and offer every line out there. I think we can expect, and find, much better than that. I'd be asking many questions from a place that offers 6 lines of bees. They would need to be a mega operation (unto itself perhaps with problems), or they are just selling bees and queen by "label" only, with other more important selection criteria perhaps left out.
The second point, I'd like to discuss is this notion that since nothing can be called "pure", to which I agree, that all effort in controlling genetics and selection criteria is lost and not worth the effort, is dead wrong. That's a lazy person excuse for their own shortcomings, own lack of management control, and lack of understanding on how to breed bees. Any good queen breeding book covers such things as selection, controlling your drone stock, the importance of other factors such as inbreeding, hybrid vigor, genetic diversity, etc.
Yes, I think everyone has a mutt to some degree or another. But the casual dismissal of the importance of actually having a breeding plan in place and because open breeding is used, that all else is lost or uncontrollable, should make you perhaps look in another direction for where your consumer dollars are spent.
Breeders do not breed to maintain "pure" lines. They breed bees based on selected criteria based on a number of factors. Get to know a breeder that selects based on criteria that you want, and not a name.
Only when the buying bee consumer expects more, will anything better be produced.
I fully agree with you Bjorn,
This outfit (not sure I want to advertise for them yet) has offered for me to go visit them and check them out, at which time I can plug away with my many questions, they are not the cheapest option around but I dont mind paying a little extra if I am getting what I am looking for.
Not sure I care about what type of Bees I will get other than I want to start with something that is local raised for the same reasons you stated, it would help me in deciding what to start with if I knew a little more about the various traits of the different lines, through my own developing program I hope to end up with a bee that meets my requirements but in order to get where you are going it helps to know where you are starting from.
I will say that from what I have read (mainly on this forum) I am going to go completely chemical free, foundationless (eventually, got to use what I already paid for) and where possible will try not to have to supplemental feed but leave enough honey on the hive for their needs.
hey dave welcome to the forum. I went with Italians this year and am very happy with them. Try and keep it simple for your first year. You might want to get one NUC and one Package, just for the experience of installing a package, a nuc is a bit of an anti climax. Well it was for me
I've tried all the varities mentioned except the Buckfast. The OWC, NWC, Russians, and MH are all fairly hygenic.
Most Lines of bees in the USA are probably no more than 90% pure at best. The restrictions on insuring the breeding of pure lines of bees is hard to maintain. A isolated yard with the nearest bees 5 miles away will only insure a 95% purity rate,
The best sites for such bee yards are the smaller islands like those off New England, the Florida Keys, and a few of the San Juan Islands in Washington State. Other sites might be established in mountainous areas but there, as everywhere there is still the threat of feral hives crossing with the desired stock.
It has been said, and I have to agree, that in the USA, there is no such thing as a 100% pure line stock anymore. Any pure line stock that might be imported into the USA would most likely cross breed within 3 years.
Give that, I think you'd like the OWC, NWC, or Russians best.
so my questions is: when you buy a specific breed, is it referring to the lineage of the queen or the lineage of the queen AND the drones? :? If it is referring to the former (and it probably is), does it really matter what breed they are? With open mating who know what you'll end up with.
the queen, who knows what you end up with
Quote from: bmacior on December 07, 2008, 01:13:31 AM
so my questions is: when you buy a specific breed, is it referring to the lineage of the queen or the lineage of the queen AND the drones? :? If it is referring to the former (and it probably is), does it really matter what breed they are? With open mating who know what you'll end up with.
That's where you as the beekeeper who is also the consumer comes in. Ask questions. Know the operation. I know that may sound hard, but all breeders are different.
I see breeders in two categories.
1)Those that are producers. They get breeder queens EVERY year, and breed first generation daughters while maintaining they are as pure as one can get. They sell a name, or a "look" that people expect to see when they buy a queen.
2)Those that are actually selecting the best of the best, from maintained yards, regardless of what they are called or come from.
The big variable in this, is the actual quality and the details of their breeding program. If you asked some breeders to show you their drone yards, they could not do it. A quality breeder, follows good breeding protocol and understands that the queen is only half the solution.
Personally, I want a breeder that selects from year to year his best stock acclimatized to his region, does not treat them, and controls his mating. Your criteria may differ.
I think that every beekeeper understands that with open mating, 100% of anything is unattainable. Let's get past that, and stop using it as a negative or an excuse. It is what it is. 90% is better than throwing your hands in the air and accepting far less by not understanding how quality can still be achieved.