Imagine if you could, or perhaps remember when you actually have seen it.....looking at a supermarket shelf filled with honey. Imagine seeing that nicely labeled bottle of honey marked $2.99 on the shelf. And after asking yourself "what kind of crap is this?" that they are selling so cheaply, you read the back of the label. And "BAMM!" it as clear as day....."product of China". You roll your eyes, you mumble under your breathe, and put it back.
Now what do some think, or better yet, what are some of the comments we all have heard or expressed ourselves....
1) "Well of course it's cheap, they pay the Chinese beekeepers pennies a day!"
2) "Well of course it's cheap, it's probably tainted"
3) "Well of course it's cheap, it's probably adulterated with sugar"
4) "Well of course it's cheap, it probably watered down"
5) "Well of course it's cheap, they are flooding the market to put the U.S. beekeeper out of business. Afterall, they know we can not make it and sell it this cheap".
Not sure if there are any more comments. But be realistic, seeing that "cheap" Chinese honey selling for ridiculously low prices have made you steam, right? No doubt when we see low priced foreign honey, we automatically start thinking about chemicals, tainting, and adulteration. Afterall, we have seen this very thing in the past. We think of the poor beekeeper being paid pennies in China, to produce honey, to ship over here, to compete with our hard working, unappreciated beekeepers.
Be real. We all think it.
So now, lets do something. Lets go back to that Mississippi store, and lets replace those bottles on that shelf, and put in the honey with the Chinese label. Would we view the product on that shelf a little different? I wonder how many hard working beekeepers would actually even suggest "Don't they know that local beekeepers are being hurt by these low prices and foreign products?" I wonder how many would automatically start making comments about what it goes into making a honey, the hours, the labor, etc. I wonder how many would actually even suggest that poor beekeepers could not even compete and make a dime at those prices.
But I know....It is a local guy selling honey at that store. And some have suggested we should be following his lead "IF he can make a living at those prices". Afterall, he must be doing something right.
But I think that same priced bottle of honey would be viewed a whole lot different, if not for it being that local poor beekeeper, who is just trying to get rid of a few buckets of honey. If that label was marked "made in China", we would automatically assume many bad things. We would think that it was not right. We would be talking about it, as we have many times in the past. How it is killing the industry. How, no wonder beekeepers are declining and we are in the shape we are in. Funny how we assume the beekeeper is not trying to make money, and maybe he just is doing it for a hobby. Yeah right, and maybe that foreign worker in China is just doing it as a hobby also.
I didn't want to kill the other thread.
But I wanted to just make a few observations. Funny how things change when two labels are thrown on that same low-balled jar of honey. And I bet we have all seen another beekeeper, or even someone else in another industry low-ball their competitors, for nothing else but to make up for a lack of selling and marketing skills. China does it...bad, bad, bad! Local guy does it....and it's nothing but slice and dice rationalization at it's best, mixed in with assumptive excuses.
I work for a manufacturing company, and one of our biggest focuses is running lean lean lean so that we can get our price lower than anybody else so we can get more business (as well as develop niches and customer relationships which are as important). We'd be in the dustbins of bankrupt plastics companies (there are plenty) if we just sit on our duffs and complained about how the other guys sell so much cheaper. And we do compete with plenty of Chinese, mexican, taiwanese....companies.
I don't see how any other area of sales really is any different.
Rick
The difference is, how many of your 5 points apply to the Mississippi beekeeper. I'd venture a guess at 0. The Chinese do have labor/ethical advantageous, but what advantages does the Mississippi beekeeper have on other US beekeepers. Willingness to work for less and take less profit? Lets face it, he can only produce just so much with that business model before he kills himself trying to do too much. Ya he might put a little hurting on a few local beeks, but perhaps he is more efficient then them and making the same profit, so then is he to blame? Furthermore, if his prices are so ridiculous for the area, why is there any left on the shelf? Obviously the market isn't the strongest there.
As far as the Chinese goes, I do believe we should tighten down on them before we get more dog food/toothpaste or worse issues. But don't hold your breath, they own most of our country now thanks to big government hand outs, so I don't see any changes coming too soon or ever. Now we can all sit here a complain about it, but that doesn't solve the problem. When your given lemons, you need to make lemonade. Manufacturing isn't where the profit is anymore, everyone needs to accept that. BRICK countries have demonstrated that they can do it cheaper and as Krusty the Clown says, "Not just good, but good enough". AS long as Americans are intent on buying the cheapest they can find than that will not change. Certain politicians want to blame big business, but they are only doing what the market is demanding. If you want to be successful, you need to move into a market that is ripe, not receding. Most of my companies manufacturing is done by contractors for $9/hr, you can get a job at McDonalds for $10/hr, so go figure. Innovation, technology, and high quality areas are still promising because although the Chinese are good at copying, but they suck at design.
Many people just want the cheapest, but there are many others who will pay more IF they are educated on the differences in quality, performance, safety, etc.
Curious...what part of Mississippi was the honey being sold?
This is Globalization pure and simple!!!!! In a few years we will stop growing or producing anything... Just consuming what the third world produces while our high standards of living will fuel the global village!!
Think about it everyone and his grand mother in China, Africa and Asia is investing in the US economy! They are buying our bogus hedge funds and bundled up securities (bad mortgages) like candy and few complained when they lost some of it in the financial melt down. Want to hear something crazy... countries like Korea are now leasing land in poor African countries and using African people as sharecroppers on their own land to produce everything from tomatoes to honey at a fraction of the price. In my last business trip in the Middle East I again rented a car and drove all over eastern Turkey, Syria and Northern Lebanon for three weeks. I visited beekeepers in those countries and they too were screaming murder at the Chinese Honey!!!! Worst in our country we have the FDA and some semblance of border control while there are limited standards or no governmental supervision over there. Thus, their honey and Chinese made agricultural product are tainted and are putting many of them out of work!!! When I spoke to an official in their agricultural sector regarding the unfairness of these cheap Chinese products to those rural farmers and honest honey producers he just smiled and pointed at the Chinese made AK47 of my escort, then to the made in china tractor, mosquito repellant, and electrical power generator! And suggested in broken English: We subsidized him (their agricultural products) they subsidize all him (their products)!
The worst is yet to come!
Another thought that I had....
By focusing on aggressive pricing for local raw honey, we would actually be pricing many many people out of the market. This would actually drive more people to the super market for the cheap imported honey, driving up imports or decreasing overall local honey consumption.
I'd actually say that the cheap raw local honey will get people's eyes open and taste buds engaged, get them used to good quality honey (assuming that it is), people that normally wouldn't buy the high priced items at the farmers market. That way they will be more inclined to spend a few extra bucks at the farmer's market if they happen across a beekeeper there with higher priced honey.
Perhaps these lower prices actually help more than hurt.
I'm speaking from experience. I'm a bargain hunter and will spend the least amount of money possible for a good product. Yes, I prefer real maple syrup, but I'll eat the cruddy maple flavored pancake corn syrup if I think the real maple syrup costs too much, because I can't afford it..period. Quality don't matter if you can't afford something. But I really appreciate somebody who makes the real maple syrup more affordable to me so I can use it. It isn't hurting the high price maple syrups 'cuz I ain't buying that anyway. But now, if I was at a farmer's market and didn't have any real maple syrup, and happened on a local vendor, I very well might buy some, even if more expensive.
I try to target people like me. People who are going to be found in a feed store who will buy something cheaper on a whim that they might not normally try if they know it is local, quality, and cheap, and they will appreciate it. Not granola-crunchers with disposable income.
Why does it bother you so much that some beekeepers sell more cheaply?
Quote from: Rodni73 on January 20, 2009, 11:56:49 PM
The worst is yet to come!
I'm very afraid that this is true. :'(
Quote from: Scadsobees on January 21, 2009, 12:15:39 AM
Why does it bother you so much that some beekeepers sell more cheaply?
It doesn't.
I'm discussing this to actually HELP others realize what they are selling, what their worth is, and what they could make for their efforts. Even if it is just my individual view.
If NOT for the whole "Everyone keeps telling us we are selling to low" aspect, then it's just another beekeeper selling his goods at giveaway prices. But I like these opportunities to just not talk about "one" seller of honey, but discuss items that every reader from the forum can read, possibly use, and even learn from.
It's not about one side complaining about one side selling low. There is not too much to learn there. But if those beekeepers who sell low, learn anything from those "other" beekeepers, then maybe someone has something to gain. It is only natural, and from years of being in sales I have seen it many times, that some feel the only way they can sell a bottle of their honey is to be the lowest man on the totem poll. And that is not correct. Local raw honey, is considered a premium product by the buying community. The buyers going to that feedstore are shouting that to the owners.
Personally, I think many beekeepers devalue their trade, their profession, and their hobby. Some sell honey cheap, some provide free pollination, and most could not talk their way out of a paperbag if their life depended on it, even if asked the simplest question about bees.
For me, all my hives are rented out on year round contracts (which said could not be done), all my nucs and queens are sold (with twice as much business turned away that I could ever sell), and my honey shelf is always empty due to people coming back and price is not an issue. So your right, why does one store owner in Mississippi bother me...it doesn't. But maybe the thousands of people who will read these threads will learn something. Maybe they will look at things differently. Maybe they will ask a followup question. I do not always look at individuals or individual events. I look at the industry as a whole.
It does not take a whole lot to get into the bee industry from the sense anyone can sell honey. If one was to open a restaurant, I think you either are smart enough to save much money, have worked in the industry, or have some skilled knowledge on the matter, before you open those doors the first night. But for beekeepers, it's something many times not more than a hobby, with people who have no marketing skills, no management skills, who happen to have some honey for sale. These discussions are not about saying "Why respond? "Why do you care?" It's about possibly helping someone. Even if the discussions are debates, go off course, and have personal bias and emotion behind them.
Think about it....we produce less than half of the honey we consume in this country. And we can not even make enough nucs to make up for losses, meaning we are shipping in thousands of packages now. This industry can't even fund a bee lab without begging at the feet of congress when something like CCD hits. But why should others value beekeeping, when beekeepers themselves place little value on it.
I think the bee industry has great expansion opportunities. I think their are many ways we can help each other grow in beekeeping. One guy selling cheap honey means little. But discussions about what local raw honey means to the community, how farmers perceive beekeepers, and other things are all tied together. It may take a grassroots effort to build up the value of what beekeepers do, what we produce, and the value behind it.
Yes, it may be just a hobby to most. But for every 100 hobbyists, perhaps three or four turn it into a sideline. And one of them goes commercial. And we need every one of them. Discussions like this help others see all sides of the issue. What the potential could be, what some may be missing, etc. You do not seek out the unsuccessful, you seek out the successful.
Were discussing one beekeeper in Mississippi. But the real value potential, for those willing to ask it, is the input from those selling 8 dollar a pound jars (what kind of markets, what kind of marketing, etc) and those such as the guy selling 60,000 pounds from his honey house (How did you get started, how do you market, etc.)
Overall, for far too long, beekeeping was unknown to the general public. For too long, people did not realize the value we provide. And for too long, beekeepers themselves did little to change that. And it's time we change that. And discussion like this help, or could help, in so many ways. All started by someone complaining, and "caring" about some guy in Mississippi selling honey.
Thanks for your opinion of Mississippi bee keepers bijourn; Bud Watt,Macon, Mississippi
Though I am not from Mississippi, I dont think Bjorn intent is to bag on Mississippi beeks.
I do believe Bjorn makes a few good points. When I started beekeeping I shadowed a fairly successful beekeeper local to the area. I made sure he is in the realm of commercial beekeeping as I wanted to truly understand how to handle a large scale operation instead of just handling 1 or 2 hives. I paid close attention and see many many different ways to "trim the fat". However more importantly it educated me enough to know how to start analyzing my costs to beekeep and how much money I need to make selling honey and etc in order to stay out of the red.
I believe it is important for any beek to analyze their own process and track expenses. Even if its to jot it down in a notebook thru the year. That way they can look at how expensive it is to run their own operation to include the bottles/labels/bottling to help determine what price they need to set to make if profitable. Another thing we all need to focus on is WE BEEKS do not have economy of scales, unlike all other industries in this country.... Even look at the average farmer, they have economy of scales with the purchase of anhydrous ammonia and the co-op farming practices with shared combines etc... Tell me one beek that offers to extract your honey for you for a small fee. I have not found any in my area and decided to become the first to offer such services to other local beeks. Most of us are running a few hundred hives. Which means we are dumping huge amounts of money into our hardware. At $10.00 per deep wooden box it costs 2k just to buy enough boxes to expand a meager 100 hives. That does not include paint, glue, nails/screws or your time to put it together. It also doesnt include the frames/foundation.
I will be the first to tell you all I have some of the highest priced honey in the local area where I live and I have no issues selling my honey and we have many many repeat customers. I would say probably only 5% of our customer base is new and many of them become repeat customers.
Quote from: bud1 on January 21, 2009, 08:47:31 AM
Thanks for your opinion of Mississippi bee keepers bijourn; Bud Watt,Macon, Mississippi
Thanks Bud. I always think that someone will not understand what I'm saying. And that is why I go to great details sometimes. It's kind of that "See the trees but not the forrest' thing. Or is that "See the forrest, but not the trees"?
Anyways, I'm glad you saw the bigger picture.... ;)
Quote from: BjornBee on January 21, 2009, 08:09:14 AM
I'm discussing this to actually HELP others realize what they are selling, what their worth is, and what they could make for their efforts. Even if it is just my individual view.
I might agree but for comments such as below. I guess I don't understand the insinuations that it is bad to sell at a lower price, even at a feed store, regardless of reasons.
QuoteAnd I bet we have all seen another beekeeper, or even someone else in another industry low-ball their competitors, for nothing else but to make up for a lack of selling and marketing skills. China does it...bad, bad, bad! Local guy does it....and it's nothing but slice and dice rationalization at it's best, mixed in with assumptive excuses.
Regardless, I agree with you about beekeeping in general. There are many many people in my circle that have learned a whole lot about honey and bees(whether they want to or not! :roll:). And a lot of people eating good honey that normally wouldn't. Kids getting hooked on real honey. I never forgot the only real wildflower honey that my mom picked up at a roadside stand.
And I understand that what to me is a hobby to others is more serious. Finding out what works is important whether you sell for $8/lb at a farmer's market or for $2/lb at a feed store.
Quote from: Scadsobees on January 21, 2009, 09:34:29 AM
Quote from: BjornBee on January 21, 2009, 08:09:14 AM
I'm discussing this to actually HELP others realize what they are selling, what their worth is, and what they could make for their efforts. Even if it is just my individual view.
I might agree but for comments such as below.
QuoteAnd I bet we have all seen another beekeeper, or even someone else in another industry low-ball their competitors, for nothing else but to make up for a lack of selling and marketing skills. China does it...bad, bad, bad! Local guy does it....and it's nothing but slice and dice rationalization at it's best, mixed in with assumptive excuses.
And so what is your point? Your not going to suggest that there is not one beekeeper out there that lacks selling and marketing skills are you?
My above comments were in regards to others making assumptions about this Mississippi seller. I've heard other assume "maybe he was trying to pay his bills", and other assumptions. And so my assumption, that maybe he was selling his honey cheap to make up for his own ignorance, his own lack of selling skills, and his own lack of marketing, is somehow seen as a negative? No, that is not a negative. That is a real potential problem for this beekeeper. And it is a real world situation that actually does happen. Not something to be seen as a negative. And certainly not anything to be thrown back in one's face from not understanding what another was saying from the start.
A real shame he can not come on this site and perhaps learn from others. One fellow beekeeper stopped in that store and gave advice. It was acknowledged that many others said the same thing. But now, the whole idea that this other beekeeper may lack in selling skills or marketing, and that someone suggesting what may be true is a bad thing, and taken as negative, is almost amusing.
Looking at things within an industry, and realizing even negative aspects, such as a beekeeper potentially lacking selling skills, is not unto itself a negative, by the mere fact of acknowledging it. Maybe he has to pay the bills, maybe he lacks selling and marketing skills. You do not use one to make excuses for the other. And you do not assume one to be true, and then think discussing the other is bad.
Does it not stink when someone changes their post after you respond..... :-D
I think I'll do a CC, and lurk awhile. ;)
I will give you my take on this , I haven't raised my price in 3 years but probably will this year, I sale my honey $6.50 a pint, $12.00 a quart, $9.50 a pint of cut comb honey, if you don't want to pay that price then buy somewhere else, but for some reason I can't keep up with my orders, drought has killed me the last 3 years, I could sale 3 times as much., Most people that buys cheap honey from store's really doesn't know what good honey taste like or how honey can be adulterated, face it most people just don't know, it's not their fault because they just never knew or cared, they say "its just honey, bee's only make one kind!!!" when you set up a both buy a few different brand of honey from the stores, let them compare it to your honey, you will sale out if you have a good customer flow, some you just have to show and boy will you....... thats my 2 cents worth on that!
And for the beekeeper that sales honey cheap, some don't really know what price they can get so they sale either what it use to sale for ( if had bee's earlier before) or what they think its worth to them without asking others, some might just have a low demand in their area and have to much so they lower prices to get rid of it, I don't believe when it comes to money they would do it on peruse because they are just hurting themselves if they did and only reason for doing that is not knowing. 2 pennies worth on that also.....
CCD might hurt most but it also helps people learn how important bee's are to those that never knew, I hear it all the time when someone finds out I am a BEEKEEPER!!!!
Hmmmm.....$5.00 per pound x 100 pounds per hive = $500.00 x 300 hives = $150,000 for a part time seasonal job, I think we've found the end to world poverty.
Just a quick comment:
Sometimes selling too cheap is not the best way to move a product.
I was at a car show in Carlisle ,PA once and a man had a car similar to many others there,condition ,age collectability. He had a price on his car far below any one else.He did not generate much interest. A guy I know told him to raise the price and he had a better chance to sell because people thought there was a problem with the car.The car sold shortly after raising the price to be comparable with the others.
The buyer and seller walked away happy!
Quote from: CaptainCanuck on January 21, 2009, 08:33:54 PM
Hmmmm.....$5.00 per pound x 100 pounds per hive = $500.00 x 300 hives = $150,000 for a part time seasonal job, I think we've found the end to world poverty.
you have to come to reality, maybe with a customer base in New York you might do well for yourself, but with that much honey on hand the only way to sale it without becoming a packer yourself is to unload it to a packer, its not that hard to understand!!!! to make it easier to understand its like this, buy a pack of cigarettes for $4.50 the buy a carton for $25.00 , it like that with most everything. they even have fleet insurance :shock: , and remember being a packer you have employees, transports cost, material cost insurances, plus a place and equipment so not even them packers make that much per bottle, think about it please!!!! look at the prices http://www.honey.com/honeyindustry/statistics.asp
Quote from: BjornBee on January 21, 2009, 09:59:02 AM
Does it not stink when someone changes their post after you respond..... :-D
I think I'll do a CC, and lurk awhile. ;)
My apologies, I was still thinking about it, and I saw you online and was hoping I could get that updated before you replied... :buttkick: ...just some extra thoughts...
Quote from: BjornBee on January 21, 2009, 09:55:55 AM
China does it...bad, bad, bad! Local guy does it....and it's nothing but slice and dice rationalization at it's best, mixed in with assumptive excuses.
[/quote]
I'm not trying to throw anything back, but I do find offense in the above comment. I mean, you are comparing a beekeeper who sells cheaply to Chinese imported honey, which we all "know" is bad.
I'm assuming the beekeeper knows exactly what he's selling for, you are assuming he doesn't know that he can charge more for it. (or "she" as the case may be)
Perhaps, perhaps not. I could get more money for my honey, but I choose not to. I guess if that makes me a chinese honey importer, so be it :-P I suppose I'll go back to lurking too....:deadhorse:
whats with all this lurking, might as well be mutt and have no say so at all, everyone can express their thoughts and knowledge on this forum as long as it is in the line of :rulez: of the forum, that's one of the reasons John started this site. none of this lurking junk please, this is for "everyone"!!!!!! say what you are thinking but remember some things might not be meant as they are said, we have people that are not good with English from other countries and some from this one :-P but we all are learning and coming in with different points of views.
Thank you for the lesson on reality Twt.
Quote from: Scadsobees on January 21, 2009, 09:45:12 PM
Quote from: BjornBee on January 21, 2009, 09:55:55 AM
China does it...bad, bad, bad! Local guy does it....and it's nothing but slice and dice rationalization at it's best, mixed in with assumptive excuses.
I'm not trying to throw anything back, but I do find offense in the above comment. I mean, you are comparing a beekeeper who sells cheaply to Chinese imported honey, which we all "know" is bad.
I'm assuming the beekeeper knows exactly what he's selling for, you are assuming he doesn't know that he can charge more for it. (or "she" as the case may be)
Perhaps, perhaps not. I could get more money for my honey, but I choose not to. I guess if that makes me a chinese honey importer, so be it :-P I suppose I'll go back to lurking too....:deadhorse:
[/quote]
Scads,
You have me at a loss of words. Or at least I'm not sure how you "take offense" based on the sentence you selectively quoted.
The other "sister' thread asked if one thought selling honey at a particular price was "selling yourself short". I brought this thread into it to make a point about public perception. How some people perceive a product based on price. If you go back and read the first post, it had to do with understanding how the buying public may view this beekeeper. And the thread asking the question, in itself, makes a statement about this by the fact it was brought up in the other thread.
But what I find hard to understand, is that others have suggested "maybe he needs to pay bills" or even suggest that the public down in Mississippi just can not afford higher prices. Unto itself, what a slap in the face of the seller, and the people of Mississippi. But yet, when I suggest that perhaps the store owner lacks selling or marketing skills, or lacks knowledge on pricing, this is seen as some big negative. Why? It may be true. It may not be true. It's not about getting hung up on some personal level in regards to a person neither one of us knows.
I brought "Chinese" honey into this, to make a point on public perception. How some will think the worst on a low priced item. And from what the store owner said, many people had expressed their concerns. They didn't say "What a great price on this honey"...they said "Your selling to low"...which as others have acknowledged, whether honey or cars, raises flags in peoples minds.
I was not trying to call him Chinese, or anything beyond pointing out public perception. How this is offensive is beyond me.
I think your reading way too much into it, and base reading "my" comments through "your" eyes. The very same eyes you claim anyone not on your level is.....how did you say it? Granola munchers with too much disposable income". Forgive me if that was not exact. I think it was close.
I don't know anything about this store owner other than what was told in the original post. The discussion is not a personal bio on this beekeeper, but a discussion of selling aspects, public perception. etc.
The discussion is exactly what my point was. If you see cheap honey from China, people look at it negatively. If you see cheap honey labeled locally, people may also see that negatively. Of course, I did not realize personal assumptions made by others, like the idea that the store owner is behind in his bills and the only way to pay the mortgage was to unload his honey... :-D
Anyways, my comparison was to point out public perception in both cases. It's just one is more easily to understand. I could of used any country for the example. Cheaply priced honey is cheaply priced honey, regardless of the origin. And people will raise flags.
This is not about a single beekeeper in Mississippi. It is about an open discussion that many can read. Possibly about things they never thought of. Perhaps it will help someone.
Please do tell, how a discussion about possible impact, public perception, and other matters here, in regards to a beekeeper or store owner neither of us know, can be offensive or offend you so. It can not be for the mere fact I used "China" in the discussion. Nothing you said, even your somewhat negative stance on others with more money than you, and your comments about "granola" types, "offends" me.
:delivery: :deadhorse: :cheer: I had a stick delivered to my house. I'm now beating the horse. But look forward to a drink...
Quote:delivery: :deadhorse: :cheer: I had a stick delivered to my house. I'm now beating the horse. But look forward to a drink...
Take from me, a 2X4 works better than a stick.. One did wonders on my back.
QuoteThe discussion is exactly what my point was. If you see cheap honey from China, people look at it negatively. If you see cheap honey labeled locally, people may also see that negatively. Of course, I did not realize personal assumptions made by others, like the idea that the store owner is behind in his bills and the only way to pay the mortgage was to unload his honey...
Anyways, my comparison was to point out public perception in both cases. It's just one is more easily to understand. I could of used any country for the example. Cheaply priced honey is cheaply priced honey, regardless of the origin. And people will raise flags.
Forest Gump says" "Cheap is as cheap does." I agree with you Bjorn, too many people's idea of marketing is a piece of torn cardboard with 4 SALE written on it. This just doesn't convey the right message and is self-defeating. Of course that same sign will be found to be posted near the $2.99 a quart honey.
Quote from: Brian D. Bray on January 22, 2009, 12:12:13 AM
Quote:delivery: :deadhorse: :cheer:I had a stick delivered to my house. I'm now beating the horse. But look forward to a drink...
Take from me, a 2X4 works better than a stick.. One did wonders on my back.
QuoteThe discussion is exactly what my point was. If you see cheap honey from China, people look at it negatively. If you see cheap honey labeled locally, people may also see that negatively. Of course, I did not realize personal assumptions made by others, like the idea that the store owner is behind in his bills and the only way to pay the mortgage was to unload his honey...
Anyways, my comparison was to point out public perception in both cases. It's just one is more easily to understand. I could of used any country for the example. Cheaply priced honey is cheaply priced honey, regardless of the origin. And people will raise flags.
Forest Gump says" "Cheap is as cheap does." I agree with you Bjorn, too many people's idea of marketing is a piece of torn cardboard with 4 SALE written on it. This just doesn't convey the right message and is self-defeating. Of course that same sign will be found to be posted near the $2.99 a quart honey.
..... sometimes "marketing" is a guy selling 200 pounds of honey for $6 a pound and he thinks he as the tiger by the tail. :-D ............. Show me the money!!!!!!!!! :-D
I admit it, I lied about lurking... :roll:
QuoteThe discussion is exactly what my point was. If you see cheap honey from China, people look at it negatively. If you see cheap honey labeled locally, people may also see that negatively.
Ok, I guess this is the point of contention, a difference in personal viewpoints. I agree that we view cheap honey from china as bad. Keep in mind, that not all do, and some people are grateful to have affordable honey, regardless of the source or cruddy flavor.
I see your point about public perception. But my point is that that may be the perception of SOME, but there are others that have a different perception, myself included.
I know that many share my personal feeling, when I see a local product for sale, with minimal packaging, for a cheap price (or in my terms "affordable" ;) ) then I'm grateful for it and am more inclined to try it, good local stuff. I don't buy the expensive (or in my terms "overpriced" :-P) stuff at the market, but I won't buy the cruddy stuff either.
If I see a quality product at a low price, I don't question the price, I buy it. I may make a comment that it is cheaper than everywhere else, but mostly because I'm happy about it and that makes me talk :). I think in the MS case referenced, this may be the case in the majority of comments to the store owner. (MAY be, I'll admit that is an assumption)
But I'm ok with this all, we're different people, different viewpoints, we're both represented here. I understand..
The horse is dead. Time for those the drinks... :cheer: Just no hitting me with 2x4's, thanks my back is fine!! :-D
Quote from: Brian D. Bray on January 22, 2009, 12:12:13 AM
Forest Gump says" "Cheap is as cheap does." I agree with you Bjorn, too many people's idea of marketing is a piece of torn cardboard with 4 SALE written on it. This just doesn't convey the right message and is self-defeating. Of course that same sign will be found to be posted near the $2.99 a quart honey.
I agree with that, but I was assuming the arguement was between the $7/qt honey and the $15/qt honey :-P....there's affordable ;) on a stand by the house and then there is CHEAP under the torn cardboard....
I know repairing posts for errors in critical spelling is one thing, when you change the story of the post is just one more way things happen - I personally believe that BOTH HEAR AND NOW in the HISTORY of the WORLD - CHINA is the EARTH'S WAL-MART. We need to figure out a way where we can make autoparts from raw steel CHEAPER than sending raw material and then made into doors there and sent back ready for installation.
SERIOUS QUESTION
As American's, how LITTLE INCOME are we supposed to be EXPECTED TO RECEIVE AN HOURS WAGES FOR AN HOURS WORK - are you telling me, in order for the US to be competitives amd for adjusting for the populations $6.80 and hour. This is ho much the average world person make a year doing what you and where you do it.
Could YOU afford to live at $6.80 per HOUR personal income IF it cured all our money issues in 8 years - lord help us when housing round 2 in 2010 ans 2011 (starting to sound like 2012 around here) I think we are in for a deep ride, one where we are just below the fridged ice like a turtle you pop your head up to breath, but in your economy - you see a bleak harvest for a decade - face it.
I and my wife make about 3.5 times that $6.80 each and in our area, you would only raise one child few people ever have more than 2. We are concidared the LOWER MIDDLE CLASS in the PA and NY income Scales. There - anyone good with a calculator can figure that out - some may be happy for us others disappointed, but we earmed every penny of it!
Bjorn - I think there is only one answer - it is almst Heaven sent "American's need to sell honey cheaper than Importing it in from china" That then means, we have two choices really 1) RETOOL to an ACCAPTED NATIONWIDE TRADE of cost effective material and board our bees cheaper or 2 accept that China is Tropical and NO WHERE IN THE UNITED STATES do we claim TROPICAL every day of the year. THEY MAKE HONEY 3 to 4 more months a year than we do MINIMALLY.
It is simply obvious to me they don't have any down time, honey is harvested like rice there and we do not stand a chance. They will sell honey to America at 1/3rd the price UNTIL WE TAKE ACTION and MAKE USE OF THIS NEW GOVERNMENT and try and have theme EXISE (sp) honey imports until it costs as much as ours - That acually sounds nuts, but we need one big US Honey sales production, it really is like playing a game of STREGO we need to get MADE IN USA the label's TITLE if need be. I don't think the American beefarmer can win a long term battle with the RED PIECE on the game board.
We are all mom and pops compared to the buyers at wal-mart. That can sell it for $2.99 a pound exported from China, until we offer a cost effective solution to meet Wallys needs (and that is cheaper honey) well... Wally will never want our honey and all supermarkets label their own from millions of drums that flood our shores every year.
mage, MOST AMERICANS have never tasted REAL AMERICAN HONEY - what a shame too - we have such a variety, a rainbow of colors and tastes.
There if we need I slogan, I'll create it:
America's Honey: a rainbow of colors and Tastes.
This may sound whacked, but does US MADE honey imndustry from all the collective growers. Can't we be RETOOLED to become something close to competitive?
I'm only asking because I think we have lost MUCH of the US MArket - and getting it back may not be the answer to the problem. We need to make OUR HONEY a GOURMET PRODUCT to the Chinese and the REST OF THE WORLD. We need to prove to the world that HONEY is NOT JUST HONEY.
Other than that, and I'm no Abe Lincoln - never could soapbox - someone out there has to be smart enough and figure it all out on a computer program. What a data base it would be, but all US honey sold Gourmet around the world, we could net GREAT MONEY once the WORLD knows the truth.
Give me a good Buckwheat honey, and I'll God Bless America - amen. Hope we get our stuff together, either when things level out and ecconomy grows (best case scenario in the Obama's Scenario - didn't he paint a dark picture of things, it was like DARTH VADAR walked into the room during his Presidential lunchion.
I wonder, how much does your face hurt if you have to smill as much as he has in the last two years. Esppecially the last few days. Gonna be fun watching a family in the White House again, but someone needs to tell him in no uncertain terms that American Bee Farmers will goe EXSTINCT if thinds don't change - TERRIFS on imported honey, enough a pound to equal what it minimally costs and still feeds us to produce.
I'm willing to fight an Ecomonic war like the world has never seen. I'll promise that everything, to the best of our ability, will be US MADE - of cource I got to eat and buy gas, and everything we all buy from what little we really get paid. Some are luckier that other, many are wealthy compared to the few who are poor.
I still don't know, was that even helpful or just a simple mans silly wishes??
A few years ago (2005 I think) I visited a friend in Massachusetts. Next to his house was a little One Stop Shop and they were selling that poor Chinese man's honey for $8.50 a lb. plus tax. I said HAHA! way louder than I should have in the small store and was asked to leave. This was one of those towns up there they just decided to build a few houses on the sides of cliffs in the middle of their dense forest land. I guess they don't get much honey out there.
So maybe I'm missing the point of this thread. It's their own fault for selling their honey where they can't present it properly. The difference between a beggar and a con artiest is one wears a tie and has a better sales pitch. It's all in the presentation. Now I don't know what the hell the owners of that One Stop Shop were thinking but if they can get away with it fair enough. $5 for a lb. of honey isn't asking much considering all the work one has to go thorough. I'd say every year of doing this all the money I make selling honey has gone to paying for what I spent Last Year. I've never had a single hive produce 100 lbs. of honey in a year before either. But we'll see what next year brings.
Honey is one of the most expensive "herbs" you can buy for cooking, and you'll never see Blueberry honey, Goldenrod, or Alaskan Fireweed sold from China.
Quote from: beemaster on January 22, 2009, 11:00:10 AM
America's Honey: a rainbow of colors and Tastes.
This may sound whacked, but does US MADE honey imndustry from all the collective growers. Can't we be RETOOLED to become something close to competitive?
I'm only asking because I think we have lost MUCH of the US MArket - and getting it back may not be the answer to the problem. We need to make OUR HONEY a GOURMET PRODUCT to the Chinese and the REST OF THE WORLD. We need to prove to the world that HONEY is NOT JUST HONEY.
Yes! As I have said in other posts here, I believe it's ALL about marketing, or rather education, which crafted well, is the best marketing. I concede I am a fairly new beekeeper without experience selling this particular product, yet I am convinced that most folks just don't have enough experience in marketing to effectively sell a product and command high prices. Once I started learning how to market, a lot changed. It doesn't matter whether it's cars, golf balls, honey, or swizel sticks. If you educate people about the product you're the one who's going to get the sale. A very effective marketing tool is emphasizing the negative to create concern and doubt while educating:
Fictitious example. Numbers NOT correct. I'm making this up for example -
Warning - Seven reasons You Should Find out Where Your Honey Comes From Before You buy!
1) Did you know 80% of the supermarket honey in the US comes from China?
2) Did you know China uses over 4 million tons of pesticides/yr on crops that are pollinated by bees?
3) Did you know imported honey has been found to be adulterated with corn syrup?
4) Did you know large scale honey operations heat the honey to quickly extract it, thus killing all the beneficial enzymes?
etc...
Seven items using this technique seems to be most effective. Maybe lucky 7, I don't know. But more than 7 and you start to lose people. Do some statistical research on what's going on with imported honey and create a 7 reasons type ad campaign with those "shocking" numbers and if your ad is getting to folks I'll bet your sales will go way up.
The idea is you are letting your potential customer draw their own conclusions about whose honey they are going to buy. And of course that conclusion they draw is to buy your honey because they wouldn't want to even touch the alternative! The reason this method is so effective is because nobody likes to be sold, but everybody loves to buy. That's how you compete. It's not about bringing your costs in line with Chinese honey. That's impossible because our cost of living in the US is much higher. You have to make people say "Yuck" and "No Way" when they see SueBee honey at Kroger. A lot of people WILL spend more when they know what they are buying.
Quote from: tlynn on January 22, 2009, 06:05:03 PM
Quote from: beemaster on January 22, 2009, 11:00:10 AM
America's Honey: a rainbow of colors and Tastes.
This may sound whacked, but does US MADE honey imndustry from all the collective growers. Can't we be RETOOLED to become something close to competitive?
I'm only asking because I think we have lost MUCH of the US MArket - and getting it back may not be the answer to the problem. We need to make OUR HONEY a GOURMET PRODUCT to the Chinese and the REST OF THE WORLD. We need to prove to the world that HONEY is NOT JUST HONEY.
Yes! As I have said in other posts here, I believe it's ALL about marketing, or rather education, which crafted well, is the best marketing. I concede I am a fairly new beekeeper without experience selling this particular product, yet I am convinced that most folks just don't have enough experience in marketing to effectively sell a product and command high prices. Once I started learning how to market, a lot changed. It doesn't matter whether it's cars, golf balls, honey, or swizel sticks. If you educate people about the product you're the one who's going to get the sale. A very effective marketing tool is emphasizing the negative to create concern and doubt while educating:
Fictitious example. Numbers NOT correct. I'm making this up for example -
Warning - Seven reasons You Should Find out Where Your Honey Comes From Before You buy!
1) Did you know 80% of the supermarket honey in the US comes from China?
2) Did you know China uses over 4 million tons of pesticides/yr on crops that are pollinated by bees?
3) Did you know imported honey has been found to be adulterated with corn syrup?
4) Did you know large scale honey operations heat the honey to quickly extract it, thus killing all the beneficial enzymes?
etc...
Seven items using this technique seems to be most effective. Maybe lucky 7, I don't know. But more than 7 and you start to lose people. Do some statistical research on what's going on with imported honey and create a 7 reasons type ad campaign with those "shocking" numbers and if your ad is getting to folks I'll bet your sales will go way up.
The idea is you are letting your potential customer draw their own conclusions about whose honey they are going to buy. And of course that conclusion they draw is to buy your honey because they wouldn't want to even touch the alternative! The reason this method is so effective is because nobody likes to be sold, but everybody loves to buy. That's how you compete. It's not about bringing your costs in line with Chinese honey. That's impossible because our cost of living in the US is much higher. You have to make people say "Yuck" and "No Way" when they see SueBee honey at Kroger. A lot of people WILL spend more when they know what they are buying.
the problem with chinese honey is not pesticides it is antibiotics from poor watter and under regulation - ;) RDY-B
http://www.mannlakeltd.com/news/index.htm#Chinese%20Honey%20Contaminated
Quotein no uncertain terms that American Bee Farmers will goe EXSTINCT if thinds don't change - TERRIFS on imported honey, enough a pound to equal what it minimally costs and still feeds us to produce.
I'm willing to fight an Ecomonic war like the world has never seen. I'll promise that everything, to the best of our ability, will be US MADE - of cource I got to eat and buy gas, and everything we all buy from what little we really get paid. Some are luckier that other, many are wealthy compared to the few who are poor.
8-) work is in progress but like the mighty oak grows slow but strong-RDY-B
http://www.mannlakeltd.com/news/index.htm#ANTI-DUMPING%20FACTS
Quote from: rdy-b on January 22, 2009, 06:25:30 PM
the problem with chinese honey is not pesticides it is antibiotics from poor watter and under regulation - ;) RDY-B
http://www.mannlakeltd.com/news/index.htm#Chinese%20Honey%20Contaminated
Thanks for the correction RDY-B. Like I said I was just making up something for example and was not using factual data. :-)