Just wondering. Which species do you think would be the better bee for a short summer season and high altutude.
Italian or Carniolan?
Thanks,
Bobb
I think the Carnis will do better. They will fly earlier and later and in colder weather.
Thanks,
I was thinking the same thing. Maybe not as much honey production but can tolerate the weather better. Appreciate your responce.
Bob
Quote from: Bobb on January 29, 2009, 09:18:47 PM
Thanks,
I was thinking the same thing. Maybe not as much honey production but can tolerate the weather better. Appreciate your responce.
Bob
That is a very important, often overlooked, point. IMO survivability of the bees can, in certain climatic conditions be more important consideration that production quantity. Having Italians that have to be replaced every year can tax the finances, whereas OWC, NWC, or Russians may not produce as much per colony but the replacement rate is much less.
At todays price of bees plus shipping, taxing the finances is exactly right..
Ordered 6 packages of bees from CF Koehnan. Came to $615. with shipping.
Ouch!
Brian,
I'm intrigued by the reference to OWCs. They don't seem to be very common in the US, do you by chance have colonies of OWCs?
SH
Here is a question.....
If the NWC program originally started with OWC stock, and for those that have Carni's from NWC stock, but fail to maintain NWC protocol, by perhaps feeling better to go with selection criteria such as localized traits, instead of using a breeding guideline to call what they have by some label such as NWC.....than what does the beekeeper have? Would you just call them carni, OWC, or something else?
Quote from: BjornBee on January 30, 2009, 09:27:02 PM
Here is a question.....
If the NWC program originally started with OWC stock, and for those that have Carni's from NWC stock, but fail to maintain NWC protocol, by perhaps feeling better to go with selection criteria such as localized traits, instead of using a breeding guideline to call what they have by some label such as NWC.....than what does the beekeeper have? Would you just call them carni, OWC, or something else?
Bjorn, do I understand my reading correct in that NWC are considered hybrids. Originally using OWC stock and outcrossing them according to the NWC protocol you mentioned? If so wouldn't that make subsequent generations where the beek doesn't follow the protocol just carnie hybrids? After a long enough time(your guess how long would be better than mine) of open mating I suppose they would be just plain hybrids or even better locally acclimatized mutts?
Quote from: slaphead on January 30, 2009, 08:40:38 PM
Brian,
I'm intrigued by the reference to OWCs. They don't seem to be very common in the US, do you by chance have colonies of OWCs?
SH
I've had NWC, OWC, and Russians. I currently have 1 OWC and 1 RussianX surviver hive. I like the behavior and industry of the OWC over both the Russians and OWC. All at good cold weather/high altitude bees that survive with a fairly small cluster and low stores consumption in relation to Italians and other hybrids. For this Year I've ordered another package of OWC and a package of Cardovian just to refresh my memory of subgenus comparisons. I'll also be doing walk away splits with the RussianX and the OWC hive I currently have. I've had regular Italians, Minnesota Hygenic, and Causcasians in the past and prefer the Russian, OWC, & NWC over those. I'm toying with the idea of getting some Large Yellow Texans.
The RussiansX are from queens purchased from Olympic Wilderness Apiary of Port Angeles, WA, the packages I have gotten through Cedar Glen Bees in Standwood WA. Cedar Glen can get you just about any variety of bee that you would like including the Large Yellow Texans and Buckfast.
Quote from: fermentedhiker on January 30, 2009, 10:18:19 PM
Quote from: BjornBee on January 30, 2009, 09:27:02 PM
Here is a question.....
If the NWC program originally started with OWC stock, and for those that have Carni's from NWC stock, but fail to maintain NWC protocol, by perhaps feeling better to go with selection criteria such as localized traits, instead of using a breeding guideline to call what they have by some label such as NWC.....than what does the beekeeper have? Would you just call them carni, OWC, or something else?
Bjorn, do I understand my reading correct in that NWC are considered hybrids. Originally using OWC stock and outcrossing them according to the NWC protocol you mentioned? If so wouldn't that make subsequent generations where the beek doesn't follow the protocol just carnie hybrids? After a long enough time(your guess how long would be better than mine) of open mating I suppose they would be just plain hybrids or even better locally acclimatized mutts?
My understanding, and maybe someone can correct me, is that NWC's were just a bunch of carni's already here, and were bred for certain traits, and marketed under the "NWC" name and assigned protocol. I do not think that were talking about a new line of bees or a genetic difference, from the original carni's that were already here in the states. I think it was a breeding effort using existing stock and selecting for desired traits.
I myself, breed lots of carni's. I got my initial stock from such places as Glenn's (I was told they started their breeding stock from NWC's, but did not maintain their line as NWC as they do not use the NWC protocol) Honey Run apiaries, Olivarez (OHB), among other places. But I wanted to breed bees acclimatized to my location and select based on local traits. I do not want to be limited by protocol, or a genetic pool, that may seem contrary to what I am trying to achieve.
My question was, if you got stock from NWC, the same NWC's that originated from OWC stock, and failed to uphold to the NWC protocol, would you not just have OWC anyways?
My understanding were that NWC were hybridized in comparison to OWC. The OWC have a much higher percentage of black bees and very few if any yellow from the Italian cross showing up in the hive. Essentially NWC are open mated OWC and whatever.
Brian,
Thanks. I've ordered 2 nucs of OWC from Cedar Glen and its kind of reassuring to know I'm not alone in pursuing this route.
SH
>My understanding, and maybe someone can correct me, is that NWC's were just a bunch of carni's already here, and were bred for certain traits, and marketed under the "NWC" name and assigned protocol.
That was my understanding as well. The "New World" designation was chosen to account for the hybridizing that had already taken place here in North America and they were trying to breed for the original traits of OWC from bees found here.
(//)
$615 bucks!
Wow, when you state it like that, it seems a lot more than what I have purchased packages for in the past. But when I figure $85 per package THAT I HAVE TO PICK UP, $102.50 per is not that unreasonable.
I need a tax deduction for that!
Why not collect local swarms. Then you would have local survivor stock...
Alfred