Today I was driving by an apartment complex and saw a pest control truck parked along the side of the first building. I happened to notice a guy in a bee veil walking around the truck so I turned around and went over. He was just climbing a ladder with a pump up bottle of pesticide in his hand. I got out and asked if they were honeybees, which I then saw congregating around a hole where the soffitt meets the wall siding at second floor height. He said yes, and I asked him if they do cutouts. He said no. I asked is there any way he could not kill them and arrange for a beekeeper like me to come recover them. He got a bit agitated and said the management company contracted his company to exterminate them and that was what he was going to do. I thought for a moment to just give him some cash for coming out so I could get rid of him and then go to the owners and talk to them. Then he then turned around and went up the ladder and sprayed them.
Maybe there wasn't anything I could do, but I just couldn't help but think that perhaps I was driving by for a reason, that is to save that colony, and I gave up when it looked like he was in no cooperating mood. I rationalized the expense of cutting into the building and repairing it, and that was something the owner wouldn't want to do just to save some insects.
What's more maddening is he puts a little fluorescent yellow sign against the wall that proclaims beware Hot Hive and African killer bees and their website name and phone number. Who knows? Maybe it was a hot hive and tenants were getting stung.
So what would you have done in this situation?
I thought it was illegal to kill honey bees.
Its very frustrating. I went to do a removal and when I got there, they had taken a fire hose and sprayed them into oblivion. The janitor was so proud of himself.
Theres nothing you can do. I think in your state they have to kill feral hives b/c of AHB. Understudy is the man w/ the 411 in your state on this issue.My state its now againts the law to kill a hive w/o attempting to have it removed. I now get more call from exterminators than the police departments.
You cant save them all, just keep trying is all. Sometimes cutouts die too...
Quote from: tlynn on February 24, 2009, 05:35:47 PM
Today I was driving by an apartment complex and saw a pest control truck parked along the side of the first building. I happened to notice a guy in a bee veil walking around the truck so I turned around and went over. He was just climbing a ladder with a pump up bottle of pesticide in his hand. I got out and asked if they were honeybees, which I then saw congregating around a hole where the soffitt meets the wall siding at second floor height. He said yes, and I asked him if they do cutouts. He said no. I asked is there any way he could not kill them and arrange for a beekeeper like me to come recover them. He got a bit agitated and said the management company contracted his company to exterminate them and that was what he was going to do. I thought for a moment to just give him some cash for coming out so I could get rid of him and then go to the owners and talk to them. Then he then turned around and went up the ladder and sprayed them.
Maybe there wasn't anything I could do, but I just couldn't help but think that perhaps I was driving by for a reason, that is to save that colony, and I gave up when it looked like he was in no cooperating mood. I rationalized the expense of cutting into the building and repairing it, and that was something the owner wouldn't want to do just to save some insects.
What's more maddening is he puts a little fluorescent yellow sign against the wall that proclaims beware Hot Hive and African killer bees and their website name and phone number. Who knows? Maybe it was a hot hive and tenants were getting stung.
So what would you have done in this situation?
Kicked the ladder out from under him :devilbanana: :devilbanana: :devilbanana:
Keith
If its legal in your state and he wasn't breaking any law the only thing you could do is try and educate him or perhaps the owner of the company.
It sounds like he was just spraying them and not removing the colony, is this correct?
If so, chances are about 50/50 he won't get rid of the colony. .
Initially, it is easy to become outraged and confront the guy with fire. The best thing to do is kill him with kindess and try and get into his head with facts and perhaps he will think twice next time.
Besides, the complex is gonna get bees again. Give your name and # out to the property mgr.
I commend you for stopping and talking with him.
...JP
when the gunk starts dripping down the inside of the wall, they'll think about pulling your card for the next hive removal :-).
you can't blame folks for wanting to get rid of the bees. they probably consider it a liability issue. they may also be required to hire licensed/bonded people to do the work. not many of us backyard beekeepers who advertise removals are licensed and bonded.
Quote from: JP on February 24, 2009, 06:19:00 PM
If its legal in your state and he wasn't breaking any law the only thing you could do is try and educate him or perhaps the owner of the company.
It sounds like he was just spraying them and not removing the colony, is this correct?
If so, chances are about 50/50 he won't get rid of the colony. .
Initially, it is easy to become outraged and confront the guy with fire. The best thing to do is kill him with kindess and try and get into his head with facts and perhaps he will think twice next time.
Besides, the complex is gonna get bees again. Give your name and # out to the property mgr.
I commend you for stopping and talking with him.
...JP
Thanks JP. Good advice. I wasn't confrontational, but it was getting close which certainly would have served no purpose. I suppose that's why I backed off.
Correct. He sprayed them. I came back about an hour later and noticed a lot of field bees circling around. No dead bees on the ground that I could see. Of course the hive is completely internal, within the framing - wood frame construction and stucco covering.
Usually what happens is people who don't understand the biology of honeybees try to spray them or seal them in and with no success and repeated call backs give up and stop doing them which is great for us.
The really pathetic thing I see, is these jokers who charge and offer no guarantee of any kind whatsoever.
...JP
There is nothing more you could have done.
In Florida all feral hives are considered AHB and the guideline is that they should be destroyed.
It is a ridiculous policy set up by lobbiest from .... you guessed the pest control companies.
What you do now is you go to the property manager and let them know if they have bees again and they will. you would like to remove them and relocate them to a better place like your bee yard.
Then go to the pest control company and explain that you would like to have them contact you when they encounter a hive so you can remove it without destroying it. You may not get anywhere with this one but it doesn't hurt to try. And if the PCOs(pest control operators) start liking you you will get lots of referrals. You work would have to be top notch. Because if they refer you they want to look good also.
Sincerely,
Brendhan
What Understudy said!
I just read somewhere that if the destroy all "feral" hives in Fl. recommendation had been followed we might not have the AHB problem, but it is too late now. I also read that they might have been here for a lot longer than they know due to coming in on ships before they were worried about bee importation.
Quote from: rast on February 24, 2009, 09:20:33 PM
What Understudy said!
I just read somewhere that if the destroy all "feral" hives in Fl. recommendation had been followed we might not have the AHB problem, but it is too late now. I also read that they might have been here for a lot longer than they know due to coming in on ships before they were worried about bee importation.
I am going to inject a bit of opinion here. Some of it based on personal experience some of it with some solid backing.
Where is that soapbox?
Ah yes.
{Soapbox}
The threat posed by AHB is overrated. It is used to justify spending money on research and keeping certain businesses in business.
The destroy all feral hives policy is a disturbingly bad one.
The fear mongering put out there by the Department of Agriculture and others is not justified.
The state used a knee jerk reaction with the push of the Exterminator lobby to implement a shoot first ask questions later policy that has not, will not and does not show any effectiveness in dealing with their supposed threat.
{/Soapbox}
AHB are in Florida and have been for a very long time. As mentioned above they got in here through the ports. before they ever made the trip from South America up through Mexico and across the southern states. This isn't in dispute it just isn't put in the brochures that describe the history of AHB issues in the US.
The policy of kill kill kill was never going to be effective. The spread of AHB was already so far spread that it was well past containment. Because of the limited mind set of the Department of Agriculture and the surrounding industries and others there was no chance that this policy would work. Yet it is the same policy they enact on similar issues. For residents of Florida all I have to do is mention the Citrus Canker issue for most of them to understand what I am saying. Billions not millions were poured into a destroy everyones backyard citrus tree only to have the state run out of money and then have the hurricanes blow the canker all over the state. In the meantime the state put less than $100,000 into finding a effective treatment or vaccine for canker.
Now onto the real threat posed by AHB. Is there one? Well the movies that came out in the 70's with titles like Killer Bees (in 3D if you wanted). Faux docudrama series like In Search Of telling how dangerous these bees were going to bee. The media reporting on every bee attack as if though the only reason could be that these bees were simply aggressive and nothing had happened to provoke them. The modern day version of this happens on Animal Planet on repeat cycle that you could almost set your watch to. National Geographic more than willing to jump head first into this pool also went with the fear aspect more than the truth aspect. The state spends millions on flyers brochures and educational settings on how to deal with the AHB bee threat. There is a lot of money to made with this if you want to help preach the word of the evils of AHB(maybe I shouldn't have put that soapbox away so fast). Let me state this very clearly.
There is no specific AHB threat here in Florida or anywhere else for that matter. There can be a bee threat but it could be any type of bee. But attacks because some kid hit a nest with a baseball bat aren't as exciting for a reporter as some old lady taking her dogs for a walk that get attacked. Never realizing that the kid ran off after hitting the nest as fast as possible. This statement is not popular nor will it win me brownie points but it simply is true based on the evidence that is out there. No one wants to hear it because it can have a direct line to their wallet. People get testy when you have your hands on their wallet.
I hear the cries now. But the bees tested positive for AHB. Yeah because the ones that don't the media doesn't print those corrections. And so what if they did? The way it is made to seem is that you will have thousands of bees come after you they will dive bomb you and sting you so much that you will resemble a porcupine. The truth? That really doesn't happen that often and when it does it is not a trait specific to AHB. ........... I will wait a moment for that one to sink in. It is a tough pill to swallow. I can hear the cries now, but people have died!!! You betcha they have also died from EHB attacks you just don't hear about those because without the killer bee attack they aren't that exciting. We had the most recent death from an AHB attack happen here in our sunny state. The media was all over this like a lion after a gazelle. The gentleman rip siding off of a trailer ripping the nest into pieces. Now I am going to make a slight digression here. The worst stinging I ever got was when I dropped a hive of EHB. It was nothing sort of an ugly situation. members here have posted their horror stories. Most of them in similar circumstances. So if you didn't smoke your bees and you just ripped the upper hive box off and tossed to the side do you think you bees would be completely cool with this? I am willing to guess in most instances probably not. This kind of destruction should cause a hive to go ballistic. I would expect that the bees would do hundreds of stings. Well the gentleman only received 100 stings. From those killer bees whose house was ripped in half he only received a hundred stings. And so we can stay on the same page, 100 stings is not fatal to the average healthy adult. That number is around 1000. For the gentleman involved though 99 of those stings didn't matter he was known to be allergic to bees he had had a systemic reaction on a previous occasion. So 1 sting was enough to be fatal to him. And whether it had been AHB or EHB did not matter there is no difference in the venom. So these mean horrible bees only stung him 100 times he should have had thousands of stings the way the media and government make it sound. Maybe someone is lying. Now you can say this is all a straw man argument but the evidence and my experience show otherwise.
Now I am not saying you should go forth and threaten to attack people with AHB or infest their area with them that is just stupid. Just don't buy the hype. Because the truth is even more interesting.
So what do we know about AHB.
1. They are a better bee. Biologically they are just superior. They are survivors. They exist better in tropical climates than EHB do. And they have for millions of years.
2. They swarm more frequently. And they do it with smaller groups. What you may think is an after swarm is a standard AHB swarm. Now the swarms can be large but with AHB they will survive with a queen and a few hundred workers.
3. They withstand disease better this could be part of number 1 but I separated it because those raise AHB people in South America and similar areas hardly ever treat with chemicals. They simply don't need to.
Let's go over another common myth I have been hearing. AHB are more likely to build their nests in weird places like water meters and BBQs. If the nest is near the ground they must be AHB. Right? Nope all of that in my experience is completely wrong. Test results on my hives show that EHB down here will grab what they can for a home. I posted a while back of the guy who killed the hive in BBQ by putting a can of insecticide on a rake and sliding it under the BBQ. Well the pics of the hive came from Australlia. They don't have an AHB problem (that we know of).
Bees be they AHB or EHB are resourceful will build on a tree branch just as quickly as they will in the hollow of the floorboards of your tool shed. a home is a home is a home.
Well how do you deal with all of the hype and fear that exists out there? Education. AHB are here to stay and that doesn't mean you are going to die. Ride on I 95 to the Golden Glades Interchange now that is dangerous.
Boy this thing a has gotten long and probably boring so I will stop now. It's nice to whip out the soapbox on occasion though. Maybe Dallas can tell you how dangerous those AHB were at the Southeast Organic Beekeepers Conference. Right after I shook them all off the frame.
Sincerely,
Brendhan
I wonder if you could get the number for the owner of his company and talk to them about subcontracting cutouts to you and other locals? That way they get their fee and the bees get a good home
I don't know about your area, but around my area there isn't anybody for people to call except the exterminator. I can't drive for an hour to spend 5 hours cutting out a hive for nothing except a marginal hive when I have all I need in my yard. Most beekeepers aren't interested either. And the ones that will do cutouts...well, its cheaper to call an exterminator and deal with the fallout from the hive later on.
Reading Understudy's posting prompted a repressed memory. I heard reports back in the 1960's of people getting "super" queens from South America. It wasn't at lot but some breeders obtained some as will as pollinators. If that is true, and not just rumor, then there is the likely hood that AFB has been present in at least some of the honey bee stock in the USA for nearly 50 years.
But I do know that the worst stinging I ever had in my life (379 stings) from a single hive was from Italian honey bees.
Quote from: Brian D. Bray on February 25, 2009, 12:25:38 AM
Reading Understudy's posting prompted a repressed memory. I heard reports back in the 1960's of people getting "super" queens from South America. It wasn't at lot but some breeders obtained some as will as pollinators. If that is true, and not just rumor, then there is the likely hood that AFB has been present in at least some of the honey bee stock in the USA for nearly 50 years.
But I do know that the worst stinging I ever had in my life (379 stings) from a single hive was from Italian honey bees.
Yes it's true.
Sincerely,
Brendhan
Quote from: UnderstudyBoy this thing a has gotten long and probably boring so I will stop now.
Thanks for taking the time to type it all out. We too seldom hear the other side of the story, or are even made aware that there is another side of the story.
Edited to add:
The March
Bee Culture has a 3-page article explaining the official State of Florida story on AHB.
Quote from: Grant11 on February 24, 2009, 05:41:42 PM
I thought it was illegal to kill honey bees.
Grant11, I see you're from the Pacific Northwest. I heard from an exterminator here in Washington State that it's illegal for them to kill honeybees but I've never actually read this law anywhere. So if you're from Washington, then you've probably heard the same thing. Unfortunately not all states have these "laws" and can spray all they want, and it's almost encouraged in states where AHB is common.
Sean Kelly
I would of kept driving without stopping.
I have come to realize a few things....
1) Cutouts take hours to accomplish. In the time I can do a cutout, I can graft 30 queens and make 15 splits. Way too productive for worrying about a feral colony of bees two stories up and in a wall.
2) What I collect out of the wall, may not be anything I want in my yards, or my breeding program. Why I would waste the time to drag home potential problems is questionable at best.
This was an apartment complex. Most places such as this are usually under contract or have one pest control company they deal with. So maybe they are not paying any more for this service anyways.
Is there an abundance of beekeepers willing to do this type work? Many times the answer is no. Not one beekeeper in my area advertises for bee removals. Not one is listed in the yellow pages. Nobody from the bee club is insured, licensed, or bonded, to provide this type service. And in today's world of liability, why would an owner of the complex seek out "hobbyest" uninsured people to perform work on their buildings...is clear to me.
We have over 3500 members on this forum. Look how many advertise for swarm collection on the site map. Not many. And some of those openly state they do not do cutouts. Reality is that it many times is hard for individuals, county extension agents, and anyone else calling, to find a beekeeper willing to go out and do this type work. We make it sound as if they should of had some list of beekeepers and willing to phone down that list of beekeepers willing to run across town and provide this service to "save" the bees. But the problem is...nobody ever provides that list for anyone to cal l from.
From my days as a state bee inspector, I am on the county 911 emergency action list. I basically get called when they can not get anyone else to respond. There is a list of beekeepers willing to collect swarms. But if they mention a second floor, behind a wall, or anything beyond a swarm hanging at eye level from an unobstructed branch, seems nobody on that list is willing to do anything. And then someone says it's a shame when people either through a lack of people to call, or past results of getting nowhere by calling beekeepers, pest control people are called in.
And it's kind of a catch 22 thing also. Seems some think we should all run out there and take a day saving the bees, but think it should be for free. I charge for the service. And discussions at bee clubs, seem to always show many who think we should do this sort of stuff for free, as some "PR" thing for the bee industry. Problem is, when the phone rings, and someone needs to respond to a colony behind the chimney on the second floor......not a beekeeper is to be found.
How this for an idea. Local county clubs paying for an advertisement in the yellow pages. Allowing those homeowners who have a problem, to actually have someone to call. If you open up most phone books, there is not one number listed for bee removal or swarm collection for people to call. We can not expect the general public to do anything beyond what they know to do...and that is call the exterminator. And we can't really blame those for whatever reason, do not want old men hanging from ladders and ripping open walls to collect some bees, without insurance, etc.
Beekeepers can not even agree as to whether one can get paid for services. Some charge, some do not. Some consider them "free" bees, others realize they can be the most expensive bees you will ever own. And yet we sit back and magically expect the public to know what to do when a colony appears in their walls. Besides a swarm list that basically comes down to a list of those willing to collect easy hanging swarms, there is little education, little advertisement, and little numbers of actual beekeepers willing to even provide such services.
I applaud those willing to this type of work who have built up a business and service, providing this type work, and actually charge for it. It's better than the beekeeper who does it when he needs to replace a hive, when the weather is good, and it is conveneint to do so. Providing this service to communities, means having that service available at all times for those people to call when they need bees removed. With anything less, we should not be complaining when those same homeowners can call one exterminator and have someone respond.
I belong to two county clubs. Both have swarm lists. Neither have a bee association or a bee removal advertisement in the phone book. Unless the homeowner is smart enough to seek out the county bee club number from somewhere or some magical place....a pest control guy will get called.
I guess what I'm saying, what are beekeepers doing on a local, county or state level to educate, provide the information, and change the practice of bees being killed? Except for a few areas, most of the times...nothing. We are reactive...not proactive.
Just the way I see it....
What a great idea about a County Beek Group paying for a Yellow Pages Ad and having members willing to go to it.
In reply to Understudy:
I pretty much agree with your soap box but will just state that AHB is an issue because at minimum it has been made an issue. At this point, for a hobby beekeeper that is in a AHB area opens themselves up to scrutiny if we don't manage for AHB. I say hobby beekeeper just because hobbiest are more likely to keep bees in areas that are closer to people on a regular basis.
You did what you could in the situation.
It is cheaper too to have somebody spray it, and then pay one of the regular workers to chop out the comb and repair if needed.
Another thing: Liability
Unless you do cutouts professionally, you probably aren't bonded and insured. Most places won't risk that.
Cutouts are something that I did for free...once. Now I'd rather not do them paid or not. Businesses could care less about saving some bees, and most homeowners don't understand why you'd charge 100 or $200 or more to do a cutout when you are getting valuable bees out of the deal.
Rick
Thanks for all the energy put into this thread everyone. I think the bottom line lesson I take is how important our role as educators is.
QuoteBusinesses could care less about saving some bees, and most homeowners don't understand why you'd charge 100 or $200 or more to do a cutout when you are getting valuable bees out of the deal.
i think you are correct. i am fortunate to live in a rural/agricultural/tree hugger, area. i get calls from farms when the pollination bees swarm, and from farms that have had swarms they missed last year, start to bug them this year out in the barn wall. a few homes, but most of those have not worked out for one reason or another...usually because they have already tried spray....and last year, tons of swarm calls. more than i could take and we have lots of people listed in this area. we all got maxed out.
longest one i did last year was a barn that took + 3 hours, but gave me 2 really nice hives. shortest was a swarm that the people had already collected in a box and was waiting for me on the front lawn! :-) gotta love green people!
Quote from: BjornBee on February 25, 2009, 08:44:12 AM
I guess what I'm saying, what are beekeepers doing on a local, county or state level to educate, provide the information, and change the practice of bees being killed? Except for a few areas, most of the times...nothing. We are reactive...not proactive.
Just the way I see it....
Lots of truth. Its hard to find a beek to do cutouts. My club does attempt to eductae organizations on how to deal with swarms and cutouts. We have a downloadable tri-fold, we will be speaking to an extermination company as part of inhouse raing for them. but Bjorn is right. Its hard work, many only want eye level hanging swarms and the bees are often questionable.
Cant save all the bees. I personally try to do as much educating as possible, get to the ones I can and close my eyes to the rest.
Quote from: Brian D. Bray on February 25, 2009, 12:25:38 AM...But I do know that the worst stinging I ever had in my life (379 stings) from a single hive was from Italian honey bees.
Wow, I bet that was a bad day. What's the story on that?
Having bees in Fl., Understudy's soapbox was great! I'll bet that you would have found bees from Africa on the slave ships in the 1800's.
Disney World, for all its claim to be enviormentally friendly, kills every swarm of honeybees it finds. The claim is they found AHB there. This is from a reliable inside source. They also use that chemical that is absorbed through the roots and makes the entire plant poisonous.
Do I want to tackle a hive of AHB unprotected, heck no. Do I want to tackle a hive of queenless EHB unprotected, heck no. Do I want every swarm killed because they might be AHB, heck no.
What the heck, I may be an alien and need to killed and then checked for DNA.
Quote from: David LaFerney on February 25, 2009, 06:03:20 PM
Quote from: Brian D. Bray on February 25, 2009, 12:25:38 AM...But I do know that the worst stinging I ever had in my life (379 stings) from a single hive was from Italian honey bees.
Wow, I bet that was a bad day. What's the story on that?
I've posted the story a few times on the forum already, look around for bee sting stories. It was a horrible day with bees when I was 14.
Brendhan, after having a bit more time to fully read your post, I believe you're right on. I see the AHB issue like air travel. When a crash happens it's a riveting story, which for the media is all about the ratings and readership. All that drama makes flying look like one risky proposition, regardless of the statistics people may read. And of course driving on I-95 to MIA or the 405 to LAX is a heck of a lot more dangerous than getting on a plane. We get a stinging death and it's front page and top of the hour news for 3 or 4 days. What people don't get is simple probability means they will never get attacked by bees. There are millions of potentially risky bee encounter activities going on every day - mowing the yard, repairing the siding, reading the meter, throwing away your soda bottle in the park trash can, pets digging around in the yard, and so on. And with probably similar frequency as lottery winners, somebody will be in the wrong place at the wrong time and disturb a hive and the whole thing quickly will cascade out of control and they get hospitalized or killed.
From what I have read about South American beekeepers, they seem to have adapted well to AHB and are happy with the resilience and productivity of their colonies. I would imagine we too will learn to live with and manage them. It may present some challenges, one for hobbyist beekeepers like me who choose to keep bees in highly populated places. Now I can mow right around my hives and bring friends over for back yard gatherings without generating any interest. I wonder what AHBs would do??
One curiosity I have, from an evolutionary biology perspective, is how long the aggressive genes will continue to be selected for, since I would suspect they don't have the level of predation in the new world they experience in Africa. If there are fewer hive destruction events then there won't be as many of the nastiest hives to survive over the gentler ones, assuming the most aggressive hives tend to more likely fend off a fatal blow. So you should end up with more surviving less aggressive colonies that would dilute the aggressive genes over time. Because in nature things just don't happen for the heck of it. Aggressive genes will not stick around if there is no reason for them. But it may well take hundreds and more probably thousands of years for that transition to happen on its own.
Quote from: Brian D. Bray on February 25, 2009, 11:24:01 PM
Quote from: David LaFerney on February 25, 2009, 06:03:20 PM
Quote from: Brian D. Bray on February 25, 2009, 12:25:38 AM...But I do know that the worst stinging I ever had in my life (379 stings) from a single hive was from Italian honey bees.
Wow, I bet that was a bad day. What's the story on that?
I've posted the story a few times on the forum already, look around for bee sting stories. It was a horrible day with bees when I was 14.
Man, that sounds incredible. I took 6 stings thru my shirt one day when one of my hives got hot (I was in there too long) and I thought that was pretty amazing. I can't imagine. Seems I remember a story of somebody on this site who was not in bee gear who intended to simply move a hive across the yard and the box came apart in his hands when he picked it up and he got hammered. I think he said he was in shorts.
Quote from: Brian D. Bray on February 25, 2009, 11:24:01 PM
Quote from: David LaFerney on February 25, 2009, 06:03:20 PM
Quote from: Brian D. Bray on February 25, 2009, 12:25:38 AM...But I do know that the worst stinging I ever had in my life (379 stings) from a single hive was from Italian honey bees.
Wow, I bet that was a bad day. What's the story on that?
I've posted the story a few times on the forum already, look around for bee sting stories. It was a horrible day with bees when I was 14.
I found it. So other than not suiting up (I assume you weren't) did you do anything wrong, or was it more or less unavoidable? I'm trying to figure the odds of ending up on the evening news.
Quote from: tlynn on February 25, 2009, 11:30:05 PM
From what I have read about South American beekeepers, they seem to have adapted well to AHB and are happy with the resilience and productivity of their colonies. I would imagine we too will learn to live with and manage them. It may present some challenges, one for hobbyist beekeepers like me who choose to keep bees in highly populated places. Now I can mow right around my hives and bring friends over for back yard gatherings without generating any interest. I wonder what AHBs would do??
Some bees even EHB will tolerate it just fine. So will some AHB. Others weather they are AHB or EHB will go nuts. MB has talked about this on occasion. Hives have personalities. Some are more tolerant than others.
Quote
One curiosity I have, from an evolutionary biology perspective, is how long the aggressive genes will continue to be selected for, since I would suspect they don't have the level of predation in the new world they experience in Africa. If there are fewer hive destruction events then there won't be as many of the nastiest hives to survive over the gentler ones, assuming the most aggressive hives tend to more likely fend off a fatal blow. So you should end up with more surviving less aggressive colonies that would dilute the aggressive genes over time. Because in nature things just don't happen for the heck of it. Aggressive genes will not stick around if there is no reason for them. But it may well take hundreds and more probably thousands of years for that transition to happen on its own.
AHB genes tend to be dominant. Simply because they have been breeding naturally for a long time and they go after traits that are beneficial for them naturally. EHB have been breed with an interceding by man. It has not always been a bad thing. The buckfast bee is prime example of that. However it has gotten to a point where the genetics on most EHB are so poor that they are basically inbred and have lousy immune systems. They are coming out of the shallow end of the gene pool. Now you have these drone, they are from out of town, they dark mysterious figures, they were leather pants with ripped t-shirts that show off their muscles. The virgin queen doesn't want to keep kissing her brother so who do you think she is inclined to mate with.
This is another reason AHB genes are so dominate. They are diverse. They don't represent the status quo. They represent something better. So when a queen is choosing sperm from the sacs she stores she is more likely to choose from them. Even if she is not AHB herself. Now does this create a dilution? Yes but only for a while. What it creates is hybrid but here is the thing that happens the hybrids mate with other hybrids. Whom have AHB genetics. Eventually you end up with a lot more AHB genes.
Think of it like this. Take two glasses one filled with Whiskey and one with coke. Pour half of the whiskey in another glass. Then give it half coke. Repeat this process until you have 10 glasses with a 1/2 to 1/2 whiskey to coke mix. This will represent you new queen. She may be EHB but she mated with a bunch of make AHB drones. So her offspring are at best 50/50. Now the 50/50 queen goes out and mates with a bunch of AHB drones and some EHB drones. Now her offspring can end up 75/25. Take the glass of half whiskey and half coke and fill it up half way. If you add more whiskey to that you end up with that mix. Now you say but I want to add coke. Fine you can do that to two of the ten glasses but the rest get whiskey because it is dominate. You can keep doing that until you end up with a 99/1 mix. You may not even notice the water. There will always be some water but it may be so small that it doesn't really matter(In genetics it matters in drinks not so much). You end up with a hybrid that is basically an AHB offshot. The problem isn't they are inclined to be aggressive that is the mumbo jumbo that the media likes.
The problem is they ended up in the soffit of someone's house who has bought into all the hype and they are so afraid they are going to die that they don't know what to do with themselves. It also brings a moment of false drama into their otherwise mundane boring lives. Nothing like going to friends and telling them you where this close to death. :-P
Bees EHB or AHB can be aggressive. The Madison avenue types managed to do a PR campaign that pretty much gave the aggressive title strictly to the AHB.
In order for there to be a dilution there would have to be more EHB drones that were suitable mating partners. And if your drones appear to virgin queens like the banjo player from the movie Deliverance chances are they are going to look elsewhere. So if you want to help with a dilution encourage more beekeepers. Buy queens in a diverse manner not always from the same guy. Even then realize bees in the wild are swarming three times more often than your nice bees. And realize that bad boys get the girls. The same applies to bees so look for drones that wear wifebeaters and have a I don't care attitude.
Sincerely,
Brendhan
Quote from: David LaFerney on February 26, 2009, 12:02:41 AM
Quote from: Brian D. Bray on February 25, 2009, 11:24:01 PM
Quote from: David LaFerney on February 25, 2009, 06:03:20 PM
Quote from: Brian D. Bray on February 25, 2009, 12:25:38 AM...But I do know that the worst stinging I ever had in my life (379 stings) from a single hive was from Italian honey bees.
Wow, I bet that was a bad day. What's the story on that?
I've posted the story a few times on the forum already, look around for bee sting stories. It was a horrible day with bees when I was 14.
I found it. So other than not suiting up (I assume you weren't) did you do anything wrong, or was it more or less unavoidable? I'm trying to figure the odds of ending up on the evening news.
I was fully suited up, smoker in hand, when I went into the hive. I know I had 379 stings because I father counted them. Made me woozy.
Imbreeding can cause Italian bees to be as or more agressive than AHB. The hive was very isolated from others and unattended for several years. prior to my being hired to "super it." The were so tenacious they chased my 2 blocks down the street and I was melting bees off my clothes with hot blasts of flame from my smoker.
BTW, if some of what the South and Central American beekeepers are saying is true, it would appear that the AFB aggressiviness is limited to the 1st few generations of the hybrid cross after which they settle down to be pretty much as Italians with the exception of needong about twice as much smoke.
QuoteBTW, if some of what the South and Central American beekeepers are saying is true, it would appear that the AFB aggressiviness is limited to the 1st few generations of the hybrid cross after which they settle down to be pretty much as Italians with the exception of needong about twice as much smoke.
That still sounds much more aggressive than I want in my yard :shock:!!! If any bees come out and come after me or anybody, her majesty's beheading gets scheduled.....I like nice tender, docile bees that apologize for the inconvenience when I have to use a hive tool to crack the top open.
EHB or AHB- if they're even a little bit mean they are not allowed in my yard.
Rick
Quote from: Conchis on February 25, 2009, 08:57:47 AM
What a great idea about a County Beek Group paying for a Yellow Pages Ad and having members willing to go to it.
Thank you.
One of my goals this year, as I'm involved with setting up the state conference, and other speaking engagements, is to focus on ideas and solutions, that beekeepers can actually take back after the meeting, and use on a practical level, to either improve their operation, or set in motion some sort of plan. To many meetings I'm attending, are filled with microanalyses of some much repeated research or filled with so much useless "fluff" by dynamic speakers, but give little for the average beekeeper to actually use the day after.
I guess it equates to the scenario of 10 beekeepers all griping about the average homeowner killing bees, yet none of them are actually doing anything on an individual basis to change it. I'm not pointing out any particular person or discussion. I'm just suggesting there are many things we can do as an industry to improve beekeeping. I would love to see all states, all county clubs, and all beekeepers, and on a national scale...all come together once a year. Can you imagine the P.R., the good will, and the opportunity it could create, if thousands of beekeepers across the country, with all county clubs, would join together with open houses, picnics, or some other education programs all on the same day....open to the public.
I've mentioned this before. Oh well.....maybe one day.
2 years ago I would have wanted to kill them myself. I, like most people were afraid of bees. It wasn't until my brother had a swarm on his front porch that I found out anything about bees. The guy we talked to about them educated us about bees and since then I have tried to learn everything I can about bees. I will be up to 6 hives this year, and I educate everyone who is willing to listen about bees.
Education is our best weapon. People are afraid of what they do not understand and most people think that bees are the same as wasp or that bees are just out to attack anyone who gets near.
Quote from: BjornBee on February 26, 2009, 09:28:53 AM
Quote from: Conchis on February 25, 2009, 08:57:47 AM
What a great idea about a County Beek Group paying for a Yellow Pages Ad and having members willing to go to it.
I would love to see all states, all county clubs, and all beekeepers, and on a national scale...all come together once a year. Can you imagine the P.R., the good will, and the opportunity it could create, if thousands of beekeepers across the country, with all county clubs, would join together with open houses, picnics, or some other education programs all on the same day....open to the public.
I've mentioned this before. Oh well.....maybe one day.
If it happened on that large a scale and especially on the same day the media attention would be big, probably national news. Even though such coverage is only sound bites, that's how the public at large is going to become aware of the world of beekeeping.
Quote from: Conchis on February 25, 2009, 08:57:47 AM
What a great idea about a County Beek Group paying for a Yellow Pages Ad and having members willing to go to it.
This is may sound good the problem is many though.
1. If you place an ad in the yellow pages it is expensive. Most associations can't afford even a small yellow pages ad.
2. If an association placed an ad in the pest control section they would have to have a license as a PCO. Most do not.
3. In our case that would be a direct violation of our charter. We are a club for beekeepers not a business. That separation is important. We are pursing a 501c3 it is kind of hard to be a non profit and a regular business. We have items in our bylaws that prevent this. And I understand and agree with them.
What would be a good alternative would be to allow beekeepers to place ads. If our members could place ads in the yellow pages in separate section from the exterminators. Like a bee or honeybee section and it could be done in a cost effective manner it would be an excellent idea.
Sincerely,
Brendhan
Brendhan, you guys need to have an exterminator who likes bees join your club, that will open some new doors for you and the club.
...JP
Quote from: Understudy on February 26, 2009, 10:38:09 PM
Quote from: Conchis on February 25, 2009, 08:57:47 AM
What a great idea about a County Beek Group paying for a Yellow Pages Ad and having members willing to go to it.
This is may sound good the problem is many though.
1. If you place an ad in the yellow pages it is expensive. Most associations can't afford even a small yellow pages ad.
2. If an association placed an ad in the pest control section they would have to have a license as a PCO. Most do not.
3. In our case that would be a direct violation of our charter. We are a club for beekeepers not a business. That separation is important. We are pursing a 501c3 it is kind of hard to be a non profit and a regular business. We have items in our bylaws that prevent this. And I understand and agree with them.
What would be a good alternative would be to allow beekeepers to place ads. If our members could place ads in the yellow pages in separate section from the exterminators. Like a bee or honeybee section and it could be done in a cost effective manner it would be an excellent idea.
Sincerely,
Brendhan
I hear steady complaints from people about how they don't get much business from their yellow page ads anymore. Go to a chamber meeting and that topic usually comes up. Phone books are going the way of newspapers. Everything's moving online. Ask someone under 30 how much of their information they get from the internet. At our association meetings, they usually have a few names of people who have swarms or cutouts, and those leads are received from our website. If I need a product or service the internet is the first and usually only place I go.
Of course you have to have a way to drive traffic to your site. If it's ranked well in the search engines then your advertising is free. If not, then a properly constructed Google Adwords campaign targeted to your local area will drive traffic at a lot less cost than a yellow pages ad, charter violations notwithstanding. I know Google restricts advertising for keywords like drug and medicine unless you have a DEA license or are a manufacturer. I don't know if they place any restrictions on pest control, though. I doubt it. Just something else to consider if you are looking to advertise.
Tracy
Web sites aren't always up to date, many people tell me they looked in the phone book.
...JP
Quote from: JP on February 27, 2009, 11:03:41 AM
Web sites aren't always up to date, many people tell me they looked in the phone book.
...JP
? Phone books get updated once a year.
Quote from: JP on February 27, 2009, 11:03:41 AM
Web sites aren't always up to date, many people tell me they looked in the phone book.
...JP
I agree.
I'll bet more home owners pick up the phone book when they need an exterminator, than sit looking through sites.
As for being updated, I bet the phone book also has more phone numbers and info that are still working, as it seems that if your paying for a phone book advertisement, your probably more than a fly by night operation.
It's ok to admit you still use the phone book. Your not a doofus. It is ok not to buy into thinking the whole world goes online for everything. You may not get to play the "kewl" and consider yourself a hipster, but it reality.
People are moving away from print media. It's just a fact. The Rocky Mountain News is the latest casualty of this reality. One of our local newspapers is heading down this same path. Also with broadband saturation in a few short years it won't be long before wired analog telephone service to your home, along with the paper brick that gets dropped on your front step every year will be a memory. They just won't be able to compete with Voice over IP on a countrywide scale.
I am not sure one can generalize that just because somebody has a phone book ad, they are more reputable than someone with a website. And I by no means am saying that people who use the phone book are idiots and should get with the program. What I am saying is when the option to quickly and easily search a phone database and to print out directions, hours of operation, etc. becomes more convenient than finding a phone book and then trying to figure out what category the business they are seeking is in, they will throw away the phone book.
Times are a changin...while many brick and mortar businesses are stagnant, internet sales continue to increase. More businesses than ever the next few years will transition to online only to cut overhead and increase sales. One of those fancy trinket stores in the malls, I think it's Sharper Image, closed all its stores and sells online only and its bottom line has increased. I know that's off topic, but my point is the internet is growing fast and is creating huge advantage for those who leverage it.
For as long as we had cable television...want to guess how many people have cable? Less than 50% of the population. Hard to believe, but true. I know whole segments of society that will never be "connected" or pay for cable.
As for newsprint....much of that also has nothing to do with the internet. I for one, cancelled my subscription to the local leftist trash rag, due to reasons other than because I can read the same garbage on line. When it stopped being news, and became nothing but agendas, I stopped paying. As many others did also. Just something to think about.... ;)
That's funny...I canceled mine because it was this whacko right wing fascist rag! :shock:
Quote from: tlynn on February 27, 2009, 04:21:04 PM
That's funny...I canceled mine because it was this whacko right wing fascist rag! :shock:
You mean there is still right wing media out there?
Here in Seattle the Post Intelligencer will either be sold or convert to webpage only as of March 1. That leaves us with the Seattle Times as the major regional newspaper.
Quote from: tlynn on February 27, 2009, 01:23:51 PM
Quote from: JP on February 27, 2009, 11:03:41 AM
Web sites aren't always up to date, many people tell me they looked in the phone book.
...JP
? Phone books get updated once a year.
True, but there are websites that haven't been updated in yrs or the link is dead and what Bjornbee said.
...JP
Quote from: Brian D. Bray on February 27, 2009, 07:20:55 PM
Quote from: tlynn on February 27, 2009, 04:21:04 PM
That's funny...I canceled mine because it was this whacko right wing fascist rag! :shock:
You mean there is still right wing media out there?
Here in Seattle the Post Intelligencer will either be sold or convert to webpage only as of March 1. That leaves us with the Seattle Times as the major regional newspaper.
No, just being a little contrary I guess... :-D
I use the online phone book.
Quote from: Irwin on February 28, 2009, 10:33:58 AM
I use the online phone book.
You should go into politics.... :-D
I use my phone book to light my bee smoker. Works great!
Sean Kelly
Quote from: Sean Kelly on March 06, 2009, 07:14:13 PM
I use my phone book to light my bee smoker. Works great!
Sean Kelly
I use a lighter or matches to light my bee smoker. So what do you actually burn.... :?
You >>>> :buttkick: <<<<< me :lau:
Bwaa, ha, ha, funnneeee Bjornbee. Cindi
We are lucky in this area to have a well known and respected honey packager and retail store that people call about many bee (and wasp) :? problems. They in turn refer them to those of us who like to impress mere mortals with our ability to get thousands of often angry stinging bugs into small enclosures and take them away.
Often it is in plain ignorance that they are destroyed or possibly in some cases it is for convenience or monetary reasons. If most people knew there was a way to save a beneficial creature I am certain they would use it. There are just not a lot of easy avenues to locate beeks since most of us do not advertise.
Of course there are some just plain mean jerks who like to kill things and it would not matter if a better remedy was close at hand. Some things never change.