If there's no particular problem forcing a beek to requeen asap, when is the best time of year to requeen by pinching the old queen (in time of year terms of before, during, or after the spring or fall flow or summer dearth or whenever, but not in terms of calendar year since we all live in different climates)?
You can interrupt the mites breeding cycle by doing it after the turn of days in June. See Mel's website for more info.
http://www.mdasplitter.com/
he has some interesting ideas. We are going to try this method this year.
Jim
I like to replace queens after the fall flow. That way they have a strong queen going into winter. It seems the overwinterng odds are better with a young queen. It is also easier to get quuens in late summer/early fall than in the spring. There are a lot of people trying to get them in the spring.
Quote from: Eshu on May 05, 2009, 12:15:25 PM
I like to replace queens after the fall flow. That way they have a strong queen going into winter. It seems the overwinterng odds are better with a young queen. It is also easier to get quuens in late summer/early fall than in the spring. There are a lot of people trying to get them in the spring.
You're buying pre-mated queens though, right? I'm talking about just killing the old queen and letting the hive make a new one out of the remaining eggs. I'm thinking after the fall flow might be too late to guarantee good mating.
You're right, I misunderstood what you meant. I was talking about mated queens.
For letting them raise their own, I do May or June when there are lots of drones. But then our flow doesn't really get going until mid- to late-July.
If the queen is bad (or not up to snuff at least) why would one choose to askt he bees to raise a new queen from her stock? It seems to me that if I have a bad queen I would pinch her and get new genetics into the hive. Thoughts?
Quote from: Pond Creek Farm on May 05, 2009, 10:17:47 PM
If the queen is bad (or not up to snuff at least) why would one choose to askt he bees to raise a new queen from her stock? It seems to me that if I have a bad queen I would pinch her and get new genetics into the hive. Thoughts?
Good logic :-D
http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/can-you-afford-emergency-queens/
Quote from: Pond Creek Farm on May 05, 2009, 10:17:47 PM
If the queen is bad (or not up to snuff at least) why would one choose to askt he bees to raise a new queen from her stock? It seems to me that if I have a bad queen I would pinch her and get new genetics into the hive. Thoughts?
I agree. Also, if it ain't broke it don't need fixing. As M.B. points out, queens do their best work in their second year.
...JP
Quote from: Pond Creek Farm on May 05, 2009, 10:17:47 PM
If the queen is bad (or not up to snuff at least) why would one choose to askt he bees to raise a new queen from her stock? It seems to me that if I have a bad queen I would pinch her and get new genetics into the hive. Thoughts?
Assume the queen is good she's just getting pinched so that it'll be a young queen going into winter so that (hopefully) the hive won't try to do a reproductive swarm the next spring.
Bees wanting to swarm is a sign of a healthy hive. Your job is to look for the signs and head them off at the pass.
...JP
Quote from: SgtMaj on May 05, 2009, 10:42:07 PM
Assume the queen is good
Mother queen quality is only a fraction of the concern with emergency queens.
pinching queens is a old still of beekeeping that has mostly gone out of practice, before mailing bee's was going most old timers use to do this in the dearth months right before fall flows started, they use to get queens that was up to snuff and a bunch of hive that didn't re queen themselves right was combined before winter, most now days just order well breed summer and fall queens and get a lot more and better hives going into winter than the old pinch stile, I am sure that some still pinch heads but if you going to pinch them then feed them good starting a week before and feed strong until cells are capped, just not worth the work and time for me, I still have 4 brood queens with yellow markings on them, those are 07 queens and still going strong, i will let the hive tell me when they need a new one ;) (because I am in these hives every 8-10 days), good luck
Quote from: JP on May 05, 2009, 10:46:10 PM
Bees wanting to swarm is a sign of a healthy hive. Your job is to look for the signs and head them off at the pass.
...JP
By that time heading them off at the pass will mean having to do a split, which I wouldn't mind except it means that I'll have two weak hives for every hive that would have otherwise been a strong hive, and I'd rather just have a strong hive to work the flow. Besides, I'm lazy and that sounds like work.
It wouldn't hurt you to learn how to do a split. Yoy may want to consider it, this way you'll have more than one hive to work with.
...JP
I already have more than one hive to work with. But I'd rather have fewer strong hives with less risk of a swarm than more weak hives and greater risk of a swarm.
Heading them off at the pass does not necessarily mean doing a split. There are other management styles that are easy will not over work you. I will also add that if there is not a problem I will not requeen just for the sake of doing it. I have brood rearing going on year round and I'm not out requeening hives because they are failing.
Quote from: SgtMaj on May 05, 2009, 11:46:26 PM
and I'd rather just have a strong hive to work the flow.
And when you end up with a poor emergency queen you have one weak hive that
you made out of one strong hive. But you don't seem too worried about emergency queens and are basing your method on assumption that you'll get good emergency queens. We all know what assuming does, except in this case there is no ME involved in your hives. ;)
I suggest just doing what you want. It doesn't seem like you want advice, you obviously have your mind made up and are just hoping for someone to validate it. You don't want to recognize the issues involved with your proposed method, but easily find fault with any other method recommended.
If your worried that much about swarming, use the snellgrove method.
Quote from: Robo on May 06, 2009, 08:43:37 AMIt doesn't seem like you want advice
I'd be happy for some advise about the question I asked. If I want to know if I should buy a bag peanuts in China on the 4th of July I'll ask, until then you may assume I'm primarily interrested in advise about the questions I ask and not about everything else.
So far all the advise has been about why would you want to do that, why doesn't matter because I'm asking a "when" question, not a "should" question.
So to recap, the question I asked was not about how to prevent a hive from swarming, but about when the best time of year to lose a queen and replace via an emergency queen? If you want to take a crack at answering the question, I'm all ears.
you were getting the best advise from some of the most experienced guys on this forum! as well as their thinking as to why they gave their advise!
perhaps you would do well to listen to the guys that have alot of hives and that have had them for a long time!
bailey
Quote from: bailey on May 06, 2009, 11:03:08 AM
you were getting the best advise from some of the most experienced guys on this forum! as well as their thinking as to why they gave their advise!
perhaps you would do well to listen to the guys that have alot of hives and that have had them for a long time!
bailey
Right, and it was advise that had nothing to do with the question I asked. Next time I'm considering if I should pinch a queen I'll take their advise into consideration, but I'm not asking if I should, I'm asking when the best time of year to do it is. If they don't know, all they have to do is say so, or don't even say anything.
If they really just want to answer the question of if I should that badly, they should do so in the other thread where I asked if I should pinch a good queen. But in this thread I'm looking for the answer to this question... make up whatever hypothetical situation you can think of if it will help you answer this question.
Quote from: TwT on May 05, 2009, 11:34:28 PM
most old timers use to do this in the dearth months right before fall flows started, they use to get queens that was up to snuff and a bunch of hive that didn't re queen themselves right was combined before winter,
so this didn't help either? those are the times I know this was done
ok what does logic say about timing? you want a large supply of eggs, food, and workers.
if you are going to pinch a queen the best time to get a good mated queen would be just before your main flow.
lots of workers food and drones.
i wont bother you with all the things that could go wrong with your hive and honey production with this advise i will just answer your question.
good luck
bailey
Quote from: TwT on May 06, 2009, 11:19:13 AM
Quote from: TwT on May 05, 2009, 11:34:28 PM
most old timers use to do this in the dearth months right before fall flows started, they use to get queens that was up to snuff and a bunch of hive that didn't re queen themselves right was combined before winter,
so this didn't help either? those are the times I know this was done
No no, you answered the question... and that makes perfect sense to me as well. I was thinking just before the fall flow starts, but I wasn't sure if there was another time, such as just after the spring flow ends when they would naturally take a break from brood rearing anyway, that if caught at just the right time would be less of a disruption to the normal hive cycles.
Quote from: SgtMaj on May 06, 2009, 10:51:28 AM
So to recap, the question I asked was not about how to prevent a hive from swarming, but about when the best time of year to lose a queen and replace via an emergency queen?
Perhaps I was misled by this statement
Quote from: SgtMajAssume the queen is good she's just getting pinched so that it'll be a young queen going into winter so that (hopefully) the hive won't try to do a reproductive swarm the next spring.
My last word of advice. If you want to talk hypothetical, then say so up front and you will get a lot less contention from folks. With statements like these, it sure makes it look like you are planning to do it.
Quote from: SgtMajI already have more than one hive to work with. But I'd rather have fewer strong hives with less risk of a swarm than more weak hives and greater risk of a swarm.
Quote from: SgtMaj
By that time heading them off at the pass will mean having to do a split, which I wouldn't mind except it means that I'll have two weak hives for every hive that would have otherwise been a strong hive, and I'd rather just have a strong hive to work the flow. Besides, I'm lazy and that sounds like work.
As far as answering your "hypothetical" question, with the details you have given, the answer is "It depends". It depends on what your goal is, maximum honey production, best quality replacement queen, reduce swarming, strongest hive for winter, etc. But I will say, there are better methods for each of these goals than emergency queens.
the question you asked was answered in all ways possible. pick the one that works for you. if you want someone to come over and do it for you, look on the map and see who is closer.
QuoteBut I'd rather have fewer strong hives with less risk of a swarm than more weak hives and greater risk of a swarm.
strong hive are the ones that swarm most often. if you want strong hives, learn the signs of swarming and take action. even then, you may not be able to prevent swarming. so goes beekeeping.
i see no point in killing a good queen. if you insist on doing it, first be very clear about why and then then figure out when. if you can not define your own parameters for action, no one here can do it for you.
Quote from: bailey on May 06, 2009, 11:22:01 AM
ok what does logic say about timing? you want a large supply of eggs, food, and workers.
if you are going to pinch a queen the best time to get a good mated queen would be just before your main flow.
lots of workers food and drones.
i wont bother you with all the things that could go wrong with your hive and honey production with this advise i will just answer your question.
good luck
bailey
If done just before the main flow, would there be enough brood to make the most of the flow? As for drone numbers, I am thinking that some drone comb might be able to artificially raise drone numbers at different times of the year until the workers get to the point of kicking them out of the hive. As far as eggs go, how many would you say is necessary to guarantee emergency queens be made? As for food, I would imagine anytime near either flow should be good, right?
Quote from: kathyp on May 06, 2009, 02:34:27 PM
the question you asked was answered in all ways possible. pick the one that works for you. if you want someone to come over and do it for you, look on the map and see who is closer.
I didn't even say I was going to do it, it was just a question.
Quote from: Robo on May 06, 2009, 02:01:27 PM
As far as answering your "hypothetical" question, with the details you have given, the answer is "It depends". It depends on what your goal is, maximum honey production, best quality replacement queen, reduce swarming, strongest hive for winter, etc. But I will say, there are better methods for each of these goals than emergency queens.
I would say the question is trying to get at the best balance of all those. But let's change the scenario so that there's less confusion... When is the best time of year to accidentally kill a queen without realizing it?
Two weeks before the flow would be the best time to do it and maximize your yields. Personally I don't pinch queens. I let the bees take care of such things.
If done just before the main flow, would there be enough brood to make the most of the flow? As for drone numbers, I am thinking that some drone comb might be able to artificially raise drone numbers at different times of the year until the workers get to the point of kicking them out of the hive. As far as eggs go, how many would you say is necessary to guarantee emergency queens be made? As for food, I would imagine anytime near either flow should be good, right?
[/quote]
24 to 25 days for a emergency to be raised to start laying. When eggs are laid,42 days till bees are foraging. Guess you better know when the flow is,the overlap could kill any chanced for a good honey crop unless there is an awful bunch of brood before the pinching. Another example of why a mated queen is better.