I have read two accounts of what smoking really does.
1. Masks the attack pheromone so other bees do not get the message to sting when their hive is under threat.
2. Causes the honey bees to think there is an approaching fire which trips a natural instinct to horde honey as they may need to evacuate very soon.
I'm more inclined to believe the second as when I smoke, the bees go down onto the honey comb. However, many bees will just take flight and hover around the hive as well, which makes me think maybe there is a 3... Bees don't like smoke and they simply get out of it's path but #3 does not explain why a puff of smoke in the entrance works.
What is the real effect of smoke? Also, how long does it last for you? If I give them a good puff in the entrance, then give them a puff under the inner cover, the bees stay down on the frames for maybe 1-2 minutes, then they are back on top in just as high of quantities as when I peek under the inner cover to start with.
I have stopped using smoke but recent discussions has made me question if this was a good practice. The reasons I quit using smoke are:
1. I don't see any real difference as to when I use smoke vs. don't use smoke.
2. I don't want the bees hording honey for no reason, making them think they are going to have to evacuate their hive.
3. I have not gotten stung yet while doing inspections, smoke or no smoke.
4. The bees quickly forget that they have been smoked and if I want to see the results of smoking, I have to smoke them every minute or so.
Can someone tell me the real benefit of smoking and why it's done?
Jeremy
Glad you are asking this! I have been experimenting with different methods but would love to see an intensive discussion on the pros and cons of each. Smoking doesn't seem to work magic in my hives. However, I was at a bee meeting last night where a tightly rolled ball of baler twine smoking did wonders in the Langstroth we were looking at. But, it needed to be repuffed every couple minutes. The best luck I have had with smoke is when I smoked my hands and not the hive.
I, too, wonder about the effects of smoke on bees, long term or otherwise.
I tried sugar-water spray. Even though the bees were happy, it was also nearly impossible to get them off the top bars, where they were lapping up the overspray.
I also tried vinegar-water spray. It worked nicely. But, I would like to know more about the effects of vinegar and humidity in the hive.
Thanks for starting this thread!!
I would surmise to say that it is both #1 and #2 of your points. Maybe your 3rd point as well.
Most of the time, I don't think I "have to" use smoke but it definatley helps work the hive and keep th bees from boiling over the top of the frames so much.
Smoking definitely calms the bees and will definitely decrease the aggressive behavior...that is the main thing.. you have mentioned the main reasons that this is thought to be the case...gorging on honey...masking other smells, etc..
Let me give you a quick rundown on my limited experience with smoking...I'm new, started my hive in June 08..as a new package, the bees were so busy building up that I didn't have to smoke..they were relatively calm..I even tried working them without gear of smoke..as the size of the colony grew...things started to change..and when the nectar flow slowed in late summer last year..they started getting downright nasty..
This year, again the bees were relatively calm...until Yesterday!....I just wanted to give the top honey super a good inspection...I put on the veil and gloves, but was wearing loose fitting shorts..and did not light the smoker....BIG MISTAKE......I pulled the first frame and set it aside...when I pulled the 2nd frame....they pretty much attacked me at knee level...I ran like a school girl swatting and yelling...took about 5 stings to the legs.. ended up having to fire up the smoker to get the hive put back together..
The point I am trying to give you is that just because your bees seem mellow now...don't count on it..
Take care! :-D :-D
>1. I don't see any real difference as to when I use smoke vs. don't use smoke.
You ain't hit the right hive or right time yet :evil: Not sure of reason why it suppose to work 1 or 2 maybe the bees are.
Some bees as you know are easy to handle but hope you don't hit a hot hive without a smoker lit. It can be an experience even fully suited. Especially during a dearth.
Some folks don't suit at all check the temperament of the bees. Yea check for the banana odor a good indicator when you see it or the bees hiking their backside in the air with stinger protruding :) them decide based on clothing and need do I want to continue, dress differently or come back another day.
Just one mre comment in this part. My mentor dose not were a suit and occasionally will wear a veil. He does wear pants ;) and a short sleeve shirt. I am one of those unfortunate ones who the bees do not like for some reason. My expose arms and face are like a magnet :shock: :-D He always laughs about it.
We got in a hot hive that was not normally so in a yard and they backed him in the bushes. He broke a pine top and he was beating them of with the top. Now this is a 30 year plus beekeeper who was running 350 hives. Sorry but I had to laugh :-D as I stood there fully suited.
>I tried sugar-water spray. Even though the bees were happy, it was also nearly impossible to get them off the top bars, where they were lapping up the overspray.
Luvin honey-- be careful this can lead to a disaster during a dearth! Robbing!!!
In regards to #3, remember smokers give off heat, this alone will direct bees away from smoke.
...JP
they think you're throwing a BBQ and wait patiently for you to return with honey smoked pollen beads.
[quote author=sc-bee link=topic=23177.msg178706#msg178706
>I tried sugar-water spray. Even though the bees were happy, it was also nearly impossible to get them off the top bars, where they were lapping up the overspray.
Luvin honey-- be careful this can lead to a disaster during a dearth! Robbing!!!
[/quote]
Yeah, I know. Dumb, dumb. It was something I read about elsewhere and just thought I would try. Then, it dawned on me that after 6 weeks of being SO careful when feeding syrup, here I was spraying sugar all over the place, basically saying, "COME ROB MY HIVES!!!" I haven't done it again. :-\
ETA: I cannot believe nobody got smart alecky, as in "It may cause oral or lung cancer, create secondhand smoke and possibly even heart attacks..." :D
I have tried to explain smoking in other posts, so I guess I will regress and say..."time will teach you well." Smoke doesn't start to work well until 1 to 2 minutes after applying, then keeps them calm for 10 to 15 minutes after applying. Any other results is caused by other forces and you need to find out what they are before it becomes chaos.
Quote from: iddee on June 19, 2009, 03:48:17 PM
I have tried to explain smoking in other posts, so I guess I will regress and say..."time will teach you well." Smoke doesn't start to work well until 1 to 2 minutes after applying, then keeps them calm for 10 to 15 minutes after applying. Any other results is caused by other forces and you need to find out what they are before it becomes chaos.
Totally agree...
Some related thoughts:
* I've learned that "new" isn't always (or even often) "better"
* Folks have been managing/keeping bees a relatively long time. It pays to go back and absorb wisdom over time from older books even and make incremental changes only once you've mastered or at least understand why/how things have been done
* Beekeeping can't be learned overnight or even in one year -- I'd say 3-5 years is a good solid base of experience upon which you can start formulating some real opinions and philosophy
* There are lots of new beeks writing books, blogs, articles and even producing video/movies. I personally listen to
only the old-timers -- folks with at least 10 years under their belts who understand both the old-time paradigm (golden age of beekeeping) and the new issues we face in modern beekeeping
I truly respect wisdom and experience. That said, "Just because that's the way it has always been done" isn't really satisfying to me.
I think Jeremy is asking WHY do people smoke--or what is its real effect? Has the effect of smoking bees ever been really studied? I guess that would take a huge number of colonies (all factors possible controlled for) being smoked compared with a huge number of colonies being calmed by other methods.
So, while I really appreciate the incredible amount of wisdom and experience out there, maybe one thing new beeks bring is a tremendous curiosity that can help us all step back and ask WHY we do what we do and WHAT effects it has...
Quote from: luvin honey on June 19, 2009, 04:18:02 PM
I truly respect wisdom and experience. That said, "Just because that's the way it has always been done" isn't really satisfying to me.
I think Jeremy is asking WHY do people smoke--or what is its real effect? Has the effect of smoking bees ever been really studied? I guess that would take a huge number of colonies (all factors possible controlled for) being smoked compared with a huge number of colonies being calmed by other methods.
So, while I really appreciate the incredible amount of wisdom and experience out there, maybe one thing new beeks bring is a tremendous curiosity that can help us all step back and ask WHY we do what we do and WHAT effects it has...
Don't disagree with anything you mention, Luvin. :) The questions/curiosity are great and I'm (as others are) happy to answer. The more questions the better. I'm just encouraging careful, slow approach to change -- reading books from experienced beeks, etc. To not throw out how things have been done just because you don't know the answers yet or haven't tried them over a good length of time. Jeremy's original post indicates he stopped using smoke. I'm trying to help him in his overall philosophy of beekeeping and change. :)
Thanks for the kind response, lotsobees--I had hoped I hadn't come across as snippy.
I guess I am still wondering, though, if anybody knows what smoking does to the bees. I mean beyond appreciating how it affects their behavior and makes it easier to work the hives.
I guess maybe it would be a bit like parenting. Some would use spanking, others use positive reinforcement. Maybe they both get the desired effect, but some would really care more about HOW that effect is achieved and any positive/negative future outcomes.
Quote from: luvin honey on June 19, 2009, 04:50:55 PM
Thanks for the kind response, lotsobees--I had hoped I hadn't come across as snippy.
I guess I am still wondering, though, if anybody knows what smoking does to the bees. I mean beyond appreciating how it affects their behavior and makes it easier to work the hives.
I guess maybe it would be a bit like parenting. Some would use spanking, others use positive reinforcement. Maybe they both get the desired effect, but some would really care more about HOW that effect is achieved and any positive/negative future outcomes.
You're welcome -- we're all on the same team, hehe. :)
What I've read (I'm reticent to drop url's to a few good articles/blog posts out there) about WHY:
* Smoke takes advantage of bees natural/created response to fire. It causes them to gorge on honey (you can verify that quite easily) as they think they'll be leavin soon.
* Once engorged with honey (or, at least partially so), the bees are much more docile. Why? It's similar to the process of swarming--they engorge with honey for the trip. When catching a newly landed swarm, you can stick your hand in them without harm often because they're happy/full/distracted.
And, just practically, I always smoke 'em (only as much needed which is a learned practice). Why?
* It protects the bees first and foremost -- moves em where needed so they aren't squished when moving boxes/frames
* It definitely suppresses the few guard bees that might be upset and prevents them from communicating their feelings to rest of hive. How? Either pheromones are masked or the others are more concerned about engorging, not sure.
* To protect my kids/visitors who might be with me (which is often). It's a proven method despite the unknowns, etc.
* Towards end of season here (July/August), its a must when robbing honey/forcing bees down to lower boxes.
Blessings,
John Schwartz
Like John said, there's nothing wrong with looking for and trying new ways. It's just that it is much safer and successful if you wait until you understand the tried and true ways first. Then make your changes with knowledge, not the redneck "Hold my beer and watch this" method.
Smoke works. Learn it and explore the whys of it, then look for better ways.
Don't just jump in trying all kinds of stuff that may work, or may get you killed.
PS...Cops don't use positive reinforcement, so don't cry when the little darling receives 5 to 10.
Quote from: lotsobees on June 19, 2009, 04:24:11 PM
I'm just encouraging careful, slow approach to change -- reading books from experienced beeks, etc. To not throw out how things have been done just because you don't know the answers yet or haven't tried them over a good length of time. Jeremy's original post indicates he stopped using smoke. I'm trying to help him in his overall philosophy of beekeeping and change. :)
I guess my problem is that I may read too much. I have read some books on organic bee keeping and that's where the information came from about the bees hording honey. The typical, well respected books says that it masks their attack pheromone which doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me as that would mean it would only be of value if you had the signal of mass attack. Some beeks, one of my local friends who has been bee keeping for many, many years (he's a retired county inspector) has stopped smoking totally as well.
I guess when I started bee keeping I thought it was more of a science than it really is. The more I read the more I think that just about anything will work but everyone has their favorite way of doing things, many time which equates to them thinking it's the right way of doing things.
I'm not saying this solely for smoking but in general practice. For instance, one local beek (not the retired inspector) who has been keeping bees for more than 40 years now only uses boardman feeders and says anything else is a waste of time/money/time. Other beeks (local and on the forum) steer you so far away from boardman feeders that you would think they are cancerous, and you know what? His bees survive, he gets enough honey income to live off of as well as many other beeks who swear against them.
There just seems to be 50 sides to every story and it seems that 49 of them are right :-) It's pretty confusing to go through your first year trying to make informed decisions about your actions.
Jeremy
Would be fun to hear a report from your county inspector friend about why he doesn't smoke.
Also, nothing wrong with trying to go smokeless over a years time and let us all know your experience at the end. Have fun!
Quote from: lotsobees on June 19, 2009, 06:02:16 PM
Also, nothing wrong with trying to go smokeless over a years time and let us all know your experience at the end. Have fun!
From what I am understanding, I'm not sure I'd want to go that route! I was out with yet another friend (who does smoke) catching a swarm from his apiary. It was about 15' up in a pine tree wrapped around the main trunk. Unsure of what to do, he took up a bucket, his bee brush, and would brush as many as he could into the bucket, then walk down the ladder, dump them in the hive and repeat.
They got a little upset at that tactic :-) I got stung three times. I was just a by stander (maybe 10 feet away or so). Two in the back of the neck, one in my forearm. The ones in the back of the neck did hardly nothing but sting a little for 5-10 minutes. The one on my forearm got a little welt almost right away. Then for the next 12-15 hours swelled up quite a bit. It was mid forearm and the swelling went just to the wrist on one end and almost to the elbow on the other. It stayed that way for the next 24 hours then the swelling went away.
I am unsure of what would happen if that would have been in my neck or worse yet, multiple stings in my neck. I'm not sure I want to find out. I guess my decision to go smokeless was simply because I was led to believe that bees are my best friend.
Jeremy
Oh, also major on the thinking of me going smokeless was the thought that bees go into a mode thinking they are going to have to evacuate then horde a bunch of honey, thus causing a disruption in the normal workings of a hive for upwards of 5-6 hours even after I leave (them putting the honey back, getting things back in order and starting their normal routine again).
Jeremy
Quote from: jeremy_c on June 19, 2009, 06:17:12 PM
Oh, also major on the thinking of me going smokeless was the thought that bees go into a mode thinking they are going to have to evacuate then horde a bunch of honey, thus causing a disruption in the normal workings of a hive for upwards of 5-6 hours even after I leave (them putting the honey back, getting things back in order and starting their normal routine again).
Sure, that's reasonable (and good) to be thinking that direction. I think it's a matter of weighing the potential good of a well-timed/routine hive check (finding your not queen-right for example) compared to the minor disruption to the hive. :)
I guess I am one of those guys that believes in my experience ......smoke works, I have experienced this, that is all I need. I have told people for years that when I use smoke the bees gorge on honey and like us after a big meal they just want to chill. Is that a factual statement?? Don't know but it works. :-D
Quote from: NasalSponge on June 19, 2009, 08:30:16 PM
I guess I am one of those guys that believes in my experience ......smoke works, I have experienced this, that is all I need. I have told people for years that when I use smoke the bees gorge on honey and like us after a big meal they just want to chill. Is that a factual statement?? Don't know but it works. :-D
Yes true to a point they do engorge on honey for the same reason you might run in to your home and get your money out of your mattress if your home was on fire. second reason smoke works is it masks the phermone hope i spelled that right. that alarms the bees to your being there if you get stung smoke the area were you got stung.
IMO it covers the alarm pheromone. I open a lot of hives with and without smoke. Without because I'm going to be finding a queen and smoke is not helpful in that regard, and with when I'm not looking for a queen to keep them calm. In both cases the workers are filling up with honey/nectar.
So, pretty much everyone is agreeing that using smoke causes the bees to horde honey because it tricks them into thinking they may have to evacuate very soon. What does this actually do to the bees? How long does this effect stay? What do they do with the honey they gorged on? How much time did we actually disrupt the normal flow of the hive?
Jeremy
>So, pretty much everyone is agreeing that using smoke causes the bees to horde honey because it tricks them into thinking they may have to evacuate very soon.
I didn't. I think they fill up on honey every time you open the hive, with or without smoke. And I open several a night every day of the week and a hundred or so on weekends virtually all of them without smoke because I'm looking for queens...
Opening the hive disrupts the hive, not the smoke. They gorge, even without the smoke, and then when you close up they put it all back and get back to work. But I'm sure things aren't really "normal" for at least a day, but they are back to working in a few minutes.
Ok a comment from probably one of the newest people with bees,, Won't call myself a beekeeper by any mean yet.
Found a swarm two and a half weeks ago helped pick it out of a small tree with just a pair of leather gloves. pickedem up right in my hand. Very docile bee's. Two days later they had started building comb in a cardboard box, i opened the cardboard box up and dumped them into a brood box a friend gave me. Those happy bees just melted in between the frames! I pulled the new comb they had built and after reading that they liked sugar water put the comb at the front entrance and poured sugar water in or on the comb with no gloves veil or smoke. A week went buy and I had ordered more hive boxes, another deep and two supers. I went out and pulled a couple of the frames to look at the bees, no problem they were so gentle and docile. I got ready to put the second box on and placed two frames that were covered with bees and honey and some brood (I think) in the top box. Then I put two new frames in the bottom box. I wanted to look at another covered frame cause I have never seen a queen bee. I picked the frame up about six inches and slipped dropping it. Those very docile gentle friendly bee's changed before my eyes! I had an ole piece of vale on my head, had a couple of holes in it. The bee's literally bounced off of the veil. I didn't get stung but am planning on learning how to smoke before I try that again.
Ok, here's my take on bees ingesting honey in access after smoking, simply put, they don't.
I remove a couple hundred hives each season, as well as work my own bees every season.
Removals average 4-6 hours and I always have my smoker at hand and use it mostly in the beginning of the removal process and in the end, when closing them up for transfer.
There is a small percentage consuming honey for a short period of time and then they're back to work. Of course if you smoke the bejesus out of them, they're going to consume a whole lot more.
On removals bees actually consume quite a bit of honey that seeps out once combs are cut and transferred. Any available honey is consumed in earnest.
Its just not the same when working hives, unless they are over smoked or honey is spilled.
My take on smoke's affect is it directs bees because of the heat and the actual smoke by product and its ability to mask alarm pheremone.
...JP
Smoking the hive is used for 3 primary reasons:
1. It's use will direct the bees, make them move within the hive or on the frame much like a border collie and a herd of sheep. It's used to herd the bees.
2. It causes confusion. Confused bees don't know which way to turn (a lot like people in that regard) and the confusion represses the attact response.
3. It masks Phenomores like that of the banana smell that is usually recognized as the attact odor. Since bees use phenomores for much of their communication the use of smoke inhibits the hives ability to organize against an invasion.
For example: A beekeeper gets stung on the back of the hand. Removing the stinger does not remove the odors left behind from the detached stinger so that odor draws more bees to the same area and more stings result. Smoking the sting sight will mask the odor enough so that amid the other disruptions going on so that more stings to that sight are much fewer, if any more.
Smoking the bees as you move from frame to frame directs the bees away from the top bars of the frame so the beekeeper can grasp the frames without squishing bees, squishing will definitely draw a sting response. It also drives the bees away for the edges when replacing or adding supers so the beekeeper doesn't squish bees which can get him stung.
Besides smoking the area where stung I also rub honey on the spot, this works well to discourage them from stinging that same spot again.
...JP