i,ve seen alot of posts lately about folks getting ready for winter. one in particular was about venting and preventing condensation in the hive. my take away from that post was that there is no middle ground, you can either keep the heat in the hive or you can vent. i really don't believe that and was looking for some more opinions. i realize alot depends on your location and what type set-up you use. tia.
there is always moisture in the hive. as long as it's not raining down on the cluster and your hive is in good shape, normal moisture is not a problem. think about the hives you have seen in the wild....or in someones wall. they are not ventilated :-) in fact, they usually have one very small opening, maybe two, and the rest of the hive is sealed up tight.
tilt the hive so that condensation on the top rolls to the front or back. protect from rain blowing in. let them seal it up and leave them alone (except for quick food checks on warmer days) for the winter.
i can't say that i agree with kathy here.
warm moist air will rise and condense on the top cover if it is cold outside. warm moist air is produced by the bees when they are consuming honey to keep the cluster warm (they don't heat the hive, just the cluster and the comb the cluster contains). in a tree or in a wall, you don't have this specific problem, because the boundry above the colony is usually not directly exposed to the outside cold.
it can be below zero inside the hive, only 1 inch away from the cluster!
so, a couple of things. insulating the walls of the hive is (imho) useless. wrapping with tar paper will help heat the hive in the sun, but it isn't insulation.
insulating the top of the hive is necessary....otherwise the moister will condense right above the cluster and either drip down, or freeze and drip down when the sun warms it up....on the cluster.
ventlation in the top of the hive is important...you need to give this moisture some place to escape.
a standard inner cover (with a hole) and telescoping cover provides both some dead air space (insulation), and ventilation. foam, fiberglass insulation in a plastic bag, or probably even a bag of dry leaves can provide insulation on the top if you are not using the standard inner/telescoping setup.
once you decide you need to give the warm moist air a way out, insulating the sides is near useless. if you were going to leave the front downstairs door, and back upstairs window open in your home, how much $$$ would you want to spend on insulation? how much good would it do?
deknow
Quote from: kathyp on September 28, 2009, 10:57:08 AM
think about the hives you have seen in the wild....or in someones wall. they are not ventilated :-) in fact, they usually have one very small opening, maybe two, and the rest of the hive is sealed up tight.
Wow!, I don't feel alone on an island anymore :-D
i have heated with wood enough years to know how a chimney works :-D
Bees handle moisture just fine in a feral colony or a hive and will seal it tighter than a frogs butt if allowed too!
The main moisture concerns happen due to beekeepers feeding syrup in the fall, which had much more moisture than honey.
Simply put, quit feeding syrup as we go into cold weather, and most moisture problems are eliminated.
>>>>it can be below zero inside the hive, only 1 inch away from the cluster!<<<<
Let's see, now. You say a cluster the size of a basketball, at 80 to 90 degrees, will not bring the air 1 inch away up past O degrees......
You believe that, and I'll believe Dad walked 3 miles in the snow, barefoot, to school. Uphill both ways.
Bjorn has hit it well with the sugar water. With honey, they have to add water to eat it. That takes care of most of the condensation, especially since cold air has very little water in it when it enters the hive, and an even lower relative humidity when heated. More insulation on top than on the sides will cause any excess to collect on the sides rather than on top, therefore eliminating the problem.
Here's someone who thinks that ventilation is bad, and that winter condensation is a valuable water source as long as it doesn't drip on the bees. Very interesting.
http://www.bwrangler.com/lwin.htm
Quote from: deknow on September 28, 2009, 12:16:36 PM
. insulating the walls of the hive is (imho) useless. wrapping with tar paper will help heat the hive in the sun, but it isn't insulation.
insulating the top of the hive is necessary....otherwise the moister will condense right above the cluster and either drip down, or freeze and drip down when the sun warms it up....on the cluster.
deknow
It depends where you live and what is the winter.
Here is explanation from Finland 60 latitude.
Only half was right in deknow's explanation
If the hive has 25 kg food stores, it generates 10 litre water from respiration .
First, heat comes from bees, not from sun or from wrapping.
In my country sun does not even shine in winter. Light time is in 4 hours in the middle of winter and it may be one month that clouds cover the sun.
I have used 30 mm wooden hive boxes. They consume 50% more food than polystyrene hives.
You know that if you have warm house and you keep door open, what happens.
However, human room needs some ventilation that odors and moisture go outside.
Polystyrene hive is good for insulation. It need not wrapping. Side wall is 20 mm thick.
What evere it is the inner moisture condensates in cold surfaces. So inner cover must have the best insulation . If inner cover is cold, the vapaur condensates onto surface and rains onto bee cluster.
I use fast bottom and entrance reducer. It needs 10 mm upper entrance via which respiration vapour ventilates out.
If you have mesh bottom, you need not upper entrance.
Insulation is the most important in spring when briiding starts. Hive rises its temperature from 23C to 32C.
I heat nowadays hives in spring with terrarium heater. Results are huge and they are in big hives. When you calculate a ball volume, the radius of brood ball rules, how much is brood in the ball.
If you have hives in shelter, and the air does not move, hives get heavily nosema.
Inside moist snow bees do not so well as in open fress air.
Hive should be over the moist ground 30 cm.
When you prepare the hbive for winter you should take extra space away. So the interior is tight and heat is high, it keeps combs dry.
If there are extra space, combs are closer the out temp , and respiration air condensates inside the hive.
IT IS RELATIVE MOISTURE WHICH KEEP THE HIVE DRY. if the hive air is upper than outer, relative moisture is low.
Very good post, Finski.
I have a medium super with r-40 insulation in it over my inner cover (hole is covered with screen "ball") so condensation/air can rise, but bees can't get at the insulation thru the hole in the inner cover. Then screened inner cover over the "insulation super" to allow for ventilation over the insulation, jsut like an attic. Then peaked 'english' style roof on top of that from Brushy Mtn. Peaked roof keeps rain off of sides of hive all year. Never seen one blow off. Then I put a calf hut over the top of each hive for winter. No need for top entrance, because no snow around outside of hive. Only 3 hives, so this is managable. The calf hut protects from wind & snow. Saves wear & tear on the outside of the hives. It can be 10 degrees warmer or more in that calf hut in the dead of winter, just due to lack of wind inside. If I ever have more hives than spare calf huts, I will move then into the machine shed for winter. Just my method. Good luck to you & your bees over winter. :)
This sounds kind of confusing-here is my set up, maybe a little easier to understand (a calf hut over the top of each hive)...
top- peaked roof
----screened inner cover- ventilation over insulation
----insulation super- med with R40 fiberglass
----wood inner cover, hole covered with screen ball- allows moisture place to go, if there is any
----then 3 medium 10 frame hive bodies
----slatted rack
----screened bottom board- with tray in bottom
----wooden bottom board
.
My inner cover is " a wooden box" where the plate is 10 mm wooden board. Then it has 70 mm edges, so that I can put 70 mm plastic foam mattres for insulation. Raincover and inner coves has ventilation space because all the time inner cover moves water through it. In summer too.
Many use in winter and in summer different inner coves but I use only one construction.
I do not use glass or stone fibres because they are then every where. Mice can dig it. I have tried them.
Quote from: charlotte on September 28, 2009, 05:52:14 PM
top- peaked roof
----screened inner cover- ventilation over insulation
----insulation super- med with R40 fiberglass
----wood inner cover, hole covered with screen ball- allows moisture place to go, if there is any
...
This sounds a good bit like the "quilt" on a Warre hive to me - which seems to make a lot of sense as well.