I would like to know how people emotionally feel about their bees.
For me my bees started out as a scientific experiment. I have always had an interest in manipulating nature and observing wild animals. Things like salt water aquariums have always been attractive to me. An aquarium is different than bees. The fish only take money from you and you control every element of their environment. That experience is more of a God complex. Fish die all the time like bees and soon you become accustomed to it and give them a quick salute and flush them. The bees are different. They are merely contained by myself and subject to more acts of God. They can leave anytime they want and there is much more not in my control. So taking wild bees and manipulating them into containment for my enjoyment and possible returns in honey seemed like fun.
So I got my bees and they were cute and I started to get emotional about them as pets. It did not last long. I soon realized they were insects and brutal to one another. Ousting the weak, old and no longer useful from the hive and basically doing anything and everything to survive the impending winter. The hive as a whole was way more important then any individual including the queen. There are no bees on welfare, no ineffective leaders and no mercy. Compounding this attitude was the fact that they were working very hard for themselves but I was planning to TAX their gold in the end and leave them with sugar water.
So in the end the bees are my slaves. I am the king. I care for them but don't care about them. I would be disappointed if I lost a hive but not upset like losing a pet. I would just get more bees and continue to help them work themselves to death for my personal gain. I love keeping bees but really do not love my bees.
Since I have developed this attitude I think I have become a better beekeeper. I am far more experimental and not scared to try new things for fear of killing a few bees. Being more comfortable to experiment has lead me to learn more about what works and what does not work.
I am interested in what people's attitudes are about their bees relative to experience and volume. Is my attitude because I am a novice or more liking to a commercial beekeeper? Is this a realistic approach or am I just crass?
Your thoughts?
i kind of feel the same way. i do think that when we own a living thing, or take responsibility for a living thing, we are morally bound to do our best for them. that doesn't mean we can't use, eat, and exploit their labor. we just have to provide good care until we do the above.
Definately slaves. Although it took me the first couple of years to figure out how to make effective whips small enough.
They started out the same way. But now...well, I don't get too emotional over a tomato plant either.
But I'd still be devastated (really really bummed at least!!) if my tomato plants all died or all my hives died.
How can you really love something that you will only see for at most 3 weeks, and even then can't distinguish it from the other 50,000 of them flying around a hive?
When taking responsibility for something as useful and transient as a beehive, garden, beef cow, etc, you can't build too strong of attachments.
For me, I think that it would be fair to say that the "love" is for the activity, not for any individual hive/bee, even with the dissapointment of losing a hive or two.
Rick
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They are domesticated animals and so slaves.
well, I wouldn't go so far as to call them slaves. They could abscond and leave you to buy new bees or capture a swarm, in effect, deciding you are not where they want to work.
Though I think many people view it as you do, I prefer to look at it as Creator made us all and we all share life. we are not alone in this life and therefore learn to work together or perhaps in tandem.
They don't 'need' us and they can certainly go free anytime they want, leaving us high and dry.
I see it as a cooperative venture and I will give my best effort to see to their best interests, even if it means simply staying out of their way for the most part.
But, we all have our own way of looking at things, that's life.
Big Bear
Quote from: bigbearomaha on September 30, 2009, 02:06:21 PM
, I prefer to look at it as Creator made us all and we all share life. we are not alone in this life and therefore learn to work together or perhaps in tandem.
I read an article which name was "When the cow selected a man to its nurser".
I'm still trying to come up with the last 29,234 names. . .
:-D
zif
Neither. They get their own food and water, build their own structures (beyond the hive) are not medicated by me, just observed.
They are also not my slaves. One hive swarmed, totally out of my control. Although I manipulate them occasionally, as in making a split, they still really do whatever they want.
I consider them a natural creature in a fairly wild habitat (except for their topbar hives) that allow me to observe them without usually harrassing me. I, for my braveness and a bunch of stings, occasionally get some honey from them. They get lots of diverse habitat, free of chemicals, from me. A pretty good deal :)
I don't think that bees are domestic animals. They are wild. They are not dependent upon us for survival. Backyard beekeeping is a bit like putting up a birdhouse or bat houses. Keeping hives of bees is of mutual benefit for bees and the keeper. You can try to manipulate your bee colonies, but you will never be in control of them. If you want to feel like a slave owner get some sled dogs.
Quote
The hive as a whole was way more important then any individual including the queen. There are no bees on welfare, no ineffective leaders and no mercy.
In a normal hive there are usually many unemployed bees. and drones get a "free lunch" from any hive they want. Honeybees are not as efficient as people once believed. Foraging includes a lot of "hit or miss" activity. :)
Neither, they're Livestock to me. :)
I think in light of past editorials with groups such as PETA, where they paint pictures of beekeepers as slavemasters, rapists, gas chamber executioner, and other not so well intended titles....I find it really amusing that we are having a conversation defining what we are or are not.
Could "Mason" be a PETA member undercover writing a report that now can claim that "Beekeepers call themselves slave master" and actually admit to their uncaring and evil ways!"
Maybe I am naive. Maybe on dairy farm forums, they openly discuss "Milking the stupid creatures till they can give no more, than grind em up for pig food!"
I know if I wanted a really good story with quotes from beekeepers themselves, to used against them in some manner, I would not need to look far.
Asking if you consider your bees as pets, is one thing. Beekeepers openly grouping themselves as "slavemaster" may be a questionable task in today's open discussions where anyone could be reading.
For anyone thinking of getting into beekeeping who may actually be reading this, please take solice in the fact that many other beekeepers than those posting here, do not consider themselves "slavemasters". Many consider themselves "stewards" of the environment, guardians of the bees they keep, etc. They may not weep in their deaths. But they do care for their health and may consider themselves a step or two above the highest compliment PETA has ever given beekeepers...that being of a slavemaster!
Quote from: Mason on September 30, 2009, 01:05:18 PM
I would like to know how people emotionally feel about their bees.
For me my bees started out as a scientific experiment. I have always had an interest in manipulating nature and observing wild animals. Things like salt water aquariums have always been attractive to me. An aquarium is different than bees. The fish only take money from you and you control every element of their environment. That experience is more of a God complex. Fish die all the time like bees and soon you become accustomed to it and give them a quick salute and flush them. The bees are different. They are merely contained by myself and subject to more acts of God. They can leave anytime they want and there is much more not in my control. So taking wild bees and manipulating them into containment for my enjoyment and possible returns in honey seemed like fun.
So I got my bees and they were cute and I started to get emotional about them as pets. It did not last long. I soon realized they were insects and brutal to one another. Ousting the weak, old and no longer useful from the hive and basically doing anything and everything to survive the impending winter. The hive as a whole was way more important then any individual including the queen. There are no bees on welfare, no ineffective leaders and no mercy. Compounding this attitude was the fact that they were working very hard for themselves but I was planning to TAX their gold in the end and leave them with sugar water.
So in the end the bees are my slaves. I am the king. I care for them but don't care about them. I would be disappointed if I lost a hive but not upset like losing a pet. I would just get more bees and continue to help them work themselves to death for my personal gain. I love keeping bees but really do not love my bees.
Since I have developed this attitude I think I have become a better beekeeper. I am far more experimental and not scared to try new things for fear of killing a few bees. Being more comfortable to experiment has lead me to learn more about what works and what does not work.
I am interested in what people's attitudes are about their bees relative to experience and volume. Is my attitude because I am a novice or more liking to a commercial beekeeper? Is this a realistic approach or am I just crass?
Your thoughts?
We care very much for our bees as we would very much for all pets. However,we do intend to make a business out of them. We intend to take the best care of them and help to make their life as good as possable.The bottom line is, no matter how much honey we take,they will live no longer or work any less. If we don't build on their hives,then they will swarm and still work just as hard. Fact is if we take good care of them,they will do better. If we keep them strong,they can over come pests much better. We work for them and they will produce more for us because they are stronger. We help keep pests under control,they stay strong.
For the record I am not a PETA activist.
I am not cruel to animals and do make every effort to keep my bees happy and healthy. I just was wanting to know where others head were and if I was totally off track for developing a more "farmer" attitude towards my bees. The term "slaves" was used to keep it interesting and stimulate thought.
By saying they are not slaves because they are provided housing, food, health care etc is an empty argument because most actual slave owners "contrary to popular belief" did provide these things as slaves were valued assets that needed to be tended to. It would also be true to say that slaves were generally not kept behind bars or in shackles. Hence like bees, they were able to leave but would likely not survive or be recaptured.
Drones do serve a purpose. They are kept in case a new queen needs to be mated to help insure survival of the hive. When winter approaches and they are not needed, they are kicked out of the hive to die.
I feel completely different about my bees than I do my dog or cat. They are companions. But that's just me. If you feel differently I would like to know how and why you feel that way. I'm not stuck in one mind set and here to learn.
Today from this post I learned that PETA doesn't like beekeepers. Absurd in my opinion but they have a right to their beliefs and I am willing to listen to their reasoning provided they are willing to listen to mine.
I just like them. Not so much individuals. Individual bees sting. I care about my hives. Each hive has a personality. Yes I want to get honey. Yes I want to grow my bee yard. I think they are livestock but then I like my goats and chickens too.
I guess you could say they are slaves,but I treat my slaves right. Nothing wrong with having slaves.Bondservants are slaves.
Coloss 3:22 Bondservants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in sincerity of heart, fearing God.
Coloss 4:1 Masters, give your bondservants what is just and fair, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven.
1 Timothy 6:1 Let as many bondservants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and [His] doctrine may not be blasphemed.
Titus 2:9 [Exhort] bondservants to be obedient to their own masters, to be well pleasing in all [things,] not answering back,
I enjoy and steward my bees as one of God's amazing creations. Like I do my Dahlias, chickens or asparagus bed. So much to learn, not only about them, but the Cause that created them. I definitely don't view them as slaves--that wouldn't be too enjoyable of a setup. If I take honey, I ensure it's at the proper time and that they either have enough to make it through the winter or feed them to supplement. If I didn't have the four hives out back, they wouldn't exist in the first place.
If they are to be considered as "slaves" then they are "slaves" that still maintain their right to keep and bear their arms. :D
I'd love to see some PETA personnel make the attempt to FORCE my bees to leave their hive and adopt other living quarters. That might be an interesting experiment. the results of which would be totally out of my control...and completely predictable.
QuoteThey are also not my slaves. One hive swarmed, totally out of my control. Although I manipulate them occasionally, as in making a split, they still really do whatever they want.
sounds more like a marriage :evil:
I prefer to think of them as tenants, receiving room and sometimes board. In return they pay rent in the form of honey and pollination. Its a month to month arrangement with no advance notification given on vacating although they may sometimes signal their intent. As a landlord I have the right to inspect the dwelling on occasion. And in trying to be a good landlord I may provide extra services at times in the form of health services and evicting unwanted squatters. Its a business arrangement in which we both benefit, though they do fine on their own as well! :-D
John
I look at it as a Tenant landlord situation. I provide the housing, (food & water in the winter) and if they don't like it they are free to leave anytime they want. I can always find other renters if needed. Their honey is not theirs until they pay the rent. :evil:
I like the tenant/landlord analogy. That's not a bad fit really.
My first instinct though, was to say that our bees are free-range livestock (as opposed to fenced in cattle, etc).
They recognise the benefits of the housing and such that we provide them and so choose to stick around, we do our best to contribute to their health and wellbeing in a way that doesn't impede them fulfilling their 'goals in life' (well, except for swarming maybe)... and the synergy resultant from that means they are able to store a honey crop well in excess of their needs, which we can take a share of.
If we don't do our job as beekeepers our penalty is that they won't achieve that excess or will revolt and abscond, and if they choose to take off despite our care then they face the ravages of the wild (mites, disease, predators, without our protection. It's a win/win.
Incidentally, we got over thinking about the bees as individuals very quickly. The hive is the individual, the bees within are more like the cells/organs in a body. No single bee or even a small few bees is capable of surviving and reproducing without the hive, anymore than a skin cell or strand of hair becomes a living entity after it falls from a person. The queen may be the heart, but she's no more capable of surviving for any period on her own once removed from the hive, than a heart is when removed from a body.
yaw are looking at it wrong, I am my bee's slave, I payed for them, spend money on them all the time, supply them with a home, supply water if needed, spend hours making sugar syrup to feed when needed, check them through out the year to make sure they are doing well, add brood from other hives when needed to keep population up in case of failing queen, keep ant's out of the hives, and at the end I get a little honey and raise some queens. Now who sounds like the slave. I wouldn't do if I didn't love it ;)
I always refer to bees as God's favorite little insects. I don't see them as pets or slaves. I'm in a unique position in that I remove unwanted bees from homes and other structures and in most cases find new homes where they can be bees, slaves or pets to those I give them to.
My bees give me more than I could ever give them, and I'm not speaking of their resources, if I get honey, fine, ok if I don't either.
Bees are therapeutic and help me escape any troubles the world has to offer.
So, I guess my answer would be, yes, I love my bees, but I pretty much let them do their own thing and keep an eye on them in case they need my help.
Of course there's different levels of love/appreciation. People first, always, and my dogs and lizards, my bees, then my frogs.
BTW, ever heard of insect politics?
It doesn't exist!
...JP
Bees - I see man (or woman) as their slaves. We buy (or build) them a hive, buy (or build) the frames. We pay for sugar for feed, medicine to treat them, special garments, equipment and protection to use while working with them. Dedicate time to do the activities which help them. We do (some of us) take the surplus honey for ourselves but we (most of the time) leave enough to get them through the winter (hopefully). If they swarm we try to get them back. To me we humans are the ones who work hard for them. Think about this. If I didn't keep bees then my bees would be in someone elses hive working just the same way. I personally am of no consequence to them. They couldn't care less about me and that is as it should be. I keep them because through them I can touch and experience a unique natural system that is there because of millions of years of adaptation and G-ds miraculous hand. I am the one who works for them and I love it and I wouldn't have it any other way. :bee:
I like the tenant/landlord analogy. You would think for our efforts of providing a home and the benefits of us providing for their health that they would out of respect give us a propper 2 week notice when they are going to vacate said property and schedule the walk through final inspection in their presence. ;)
I do (provide) much more for the bees than I have to for my tenants though. I guess when I look at it like that they sound more of my dependants. HUMMM!!! I wonder if my tax accountant thought about this for deductions?
Pet implies an emotional attachment with a creature. Not easy with several thousand stinging insects that all look alike.
Slave implies a level of control not possible with free roaming creatures.
I would suggest livestock. Not that different from open range cattle or chickens. They stay close to the hive because that is their home, like the chicken house for the chickens at night or the stock tank in the pasture.
I worry about them the way any farmer would his stock but don't have an attachment to individuals.
And just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you. We often act in open discussions as if we are alone, saying things we don't think through, things that may be taken wrong or mis-used.
Some of us have been stung before and seen our own words used against us. Don't take it as personal that we sometimes suggest caution.
Bees are probably most closely defined as livestock - although they don't exactly fit that definition perfectly either. Traditional livestock (pigs, cows, horses, chickens, etc.) generally don't run off AND survive for very long or very well (feral horses and pigs might be the exception). I don't consider bees to be domesticated in the same way that traditional livestock has been either (this would separate them from the horses, pigs and other livestock that becomes feral successfully).
I also don't consider bees individually - with the exception of the queen. I view them as hives+queen. In that view, it is only my relationship with the queen that is important, as she has the greatest impact on the hive. My relationship with the queens of my hives might best be described as facultatively mutualistic.
We both willingly associate (I can knock the hives over/she can leave and take the others with her-so either of us can end the association whenever we want). Neither of us 'needs' the other to survive and, in good years, we both benefit from the association (I get honey/they get a place to live that I help maintain).
<<<<<We are their Keepers, but not their Owners, for they are of Nature and No One owns Nature.(www.mountainvalleybees.com)>>>>>> Alan Bukley His user name is mountainvalleybee on Beemaster
I like it.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
No love lost here for PETA, or Oprah for that matter.
TwT hit the mark, among others. My honey bees made me their slave, no doubt! As for the author of this thread . . . and one of the rare good and thought provoking threads here . . . for me the bees are an emotional touchstone to ancient history. I love contemplating that fact every time I am near them. Beekeeping is just something I want to bee involved with.
First I would would like to say that I am very anti-PETA...They kill more animals then they save. I might imagine that many PETA members are vegans or even vegitarians. They should really thank us because last time I checked bee help pollinate something called food. In paticular fruits, and some vegies I think. So without bees they could no longer have such accsess to fruits and bee pollination crops.
Back to topic. I believe that my bees are not my slave but the arn't my pets. It roally stinks if I loose my one and only hive and I might shed a small tear or two. But starting next year I am going to make styrofoam nucs in july with a frame of brood and bees and give them a queen. So if I have a loss I can replace with nuc.
Quote from: giant pumpkin peep on October 03, 2009, 12:32:42 AM
But starting next year I am going to make styrofoam nucs in july with a frame of brood and bees and give them a queen. So if I have a loss I can replace with nuc.
Good luck with that. I attempted to use styrofoam as an insulator in one of my hives. The bees promptly proceded to chew it up and carry it out of the hive. you may have better luck with it.
When it works out right it's a symbiotic relationship - both bees and keeper give something and in turn benefit from the arrangement. Like any other deal - for it to be a good deal both parties must be able to profit.
Vibe,
You put the insulation on the outside of the hive...not on the inside.
Quote from: gaucho10 on October 07, 2009, 04:32:23 AM
Vibe,
You put the insulation on the outside of the hive...not on the inside.
LOL. I know that....now.
But how would you do that with a styrofoam nuc?
Vibe, You can cut and use insulation as I did last year when I lost the queen from one of my hives. I had to merge the two hives together. I used 1" insulation with aluminum backing. I used "duct" tape to hold the pieces together. In the spring I just split them again. Here is a pic of both merged hives.
(http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/158/img0125xz.th.jpg) (http://img19.imageshack.us/i/img0125xz.jpg/)
Just leave the entrance(es) opened. I have a bottom entrance and a top vent hole that the bees will use as an upper entrance later on during the winter.