Kelley now has foundationless frames:
Deeps: https://products.kelleybees.com/wtkprod/detail.aspx?item=1182
Mediums: https://products.kelleybees.com/wtkprod/detail.aspx?item=1184
edited to fix second link.
Whoohoo ! :-D
Thats great that one of the big companies is finally offering them. Its a good price too for not having to deal with getting them custom made or using glue and guides and all that fun stuff.
Defintely a convenience. I still have quite a bit of the frames that I had made with the angled top bar but I would buy these in the future.
Well, its about time! That's great!
...JP
Nice, that'll make assembly go much quicker.
I ordered a 100 Mediums yesterday from their online catalog, and they are in stock :)
Are they assembled?
Quote from: bassman1977 on January 14, 2010, 07:48:51 PM
Are they assembled?
Good question :? For $ .95 each, I doubt they are assembled.
I was under the impression they WERE assembled.
Do you need to put any wax on them at all or will the bees easily build the comb in a flow? Also, I know you can wire them. Can you extract them without blow outs?
Being that I hear the bees build comb as fast on their own or faster than on foundation, if one wires them, I see no reason to pay extra for foundation. Is there any real reason people should use foundation if they can afford it instead of foundationless?
Ive been wondering about this. It would save a lot of money.
>Do you need to put any wax on them at all or will the bees easily build the comb in a flow?
I never wax them. I would use them "as is".
Here is a page with a lot of general information.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm (http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm)
> Also, I know you can wire them.
I don't.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#dowire (http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#dowire)
You can.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#canwire (http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#canwire)
> Can you extract them without blow outs?
Yes.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#extract (http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#extract)
Quote from: Michael Bush on January 14, 2010, 10:07:52 PM
I was under the impression they WERE assembled.
On the description of each item ( there are 3 to choose from for these frames ) only one indicates they're assembled, the other two have no indication, however they are all priced the same at .95 cents each :?
Now I would not charge the same price for an assembled item vs. an unassembled one, that's just me. :)
Hurray!
Thank you for the heads up.
SH
Thanks Michael Bush!
Fantastic!!!!
keeping bees just got cheaper! All that foundation can get expensive real quick. I see no reason not to let the bees build their combs the way they want as long as I can extract the frames. I will wire my honey frames until I have experience with them. I am guessing foundation-less prevents those frames of brood that are not drawn out deep enough. I had some frames of brood that I could not believe were capped when the cells were so shallow and resulted in tiny bees. I believe this is due to the fact that they start drawing out more cells than they can take care of when the queen goes to town laying in them. I cant wait till spring. Its going to be a long winter.
QuoteCan you extract them without blow outs?
I've been using foundationless for two years and I've actually had less blow outs using foundationless than I did when using foundation. I do wire them though and I'm sure that helps, but then again, I wire everything.
Quote from: Michael Bush on January 14, 2010, 10:07:52 PM
I was under the impression they WERE assembled.
I emailed them to find this out and they said for another .50 they would assemble them.
Quote from: annette on January 16, 2010, 08:14:06 PM
Quote from: Michael Bush on January 14, 2010, 10:07:52 PM
I was under the impression they WERE assembled.
I emailed them to find this out and they said for another .50 they would assemble them.
Thank You :-D
well, we pay less than $.50/frame with a groove top bar, and simply glue in popsicle sticks (about 4 cents worth...we reuse them from honey tastings). we glue them in the top bars before assembly, and it's hard to call this "extra work".
we have way more popsicle sticks than we can use...if you are in the area (mass), or come to the upcoming 2010 northeast treatment free beekeeping conference, you are welcome to a thousand or so (you have to wash them yourself).
...i'd like a nice beveled top bar, but these are not beveled, and too expensive for my cheap taste :)
deknow
>but these are not beveled
According to Kelley they are making them beveled now but haven't updated the picture yet.
Quote from: deknow on January 17, 2010, 02:00:00 PM
well, we pay less than $.50/frame with a groove top bar, and simply glue in popsicle sticks (about 4 cents worth...we reuse them from honey tastings). we glue them in the top bars before assembly, and it's hard to call this "extra work".
we have way more popsicle sticks than we can use...if you are in the area (mass), or come to the upcoming 2010 northeast treatment free beekeeping conference, you are welcome to a thousand or so (you have to wash them yourself).
...i'd like a nice beveled top bar, but these are not beveled, and too expensive for my cheap taste :)
deknow
You're not cheap, You're Frugal ;)
I just looked and they did update the pictures.
The Kelley Foundationless Frames arrive and they are well made. The photo does not do it justice, the edge along the length of the top bar is more pronounced than the picture shows, the bottom bar is solid, well worth the 68 cents each I paid plus the small shipping charge. :-D
what was your shipping by the way? I was doing an order and the checkout said shipping was 133$ dollars for a hundred frames??? I know it has to be an error, but I'm certainly not going to place an order without calling them :)
Quote from: fermentedhiker on January 20, 2010, 09:40:33 PM
what was your shipping by the way? I was doing an order and the checkout said shipping was 133$ dollars for a hundred frames??? I know it has to be an error, but I'm certainly not going to place an order without calling them :)
That $133. is a system error. I called them about it and they verified it was. I paid $16.00 for a 35 pound box of 100 unassembled frames shipped to a commercial address from Kentucky to New Jersey. ( Sure beats driving there & Back ;) ) That's $.84 a frame, that is much better than buying from Humble Abodes which was $1.25 per frame for the same 100. Humble, btw makes a very good frame, but WTK wins.
shipping is always a big issue with woodenware (and glassware)....but it goes down to almost nothing if:
1. order in larger quantities (find other beekeepers to pitch in on an order).
2. have the order delivered to shipping address with a loading dock (if the truck must have a lift gate, you will pay extra for delivery)....find a local business that will let you use their dock if necessary.
when these things come _on_ a pallet rather than _in_ a box you will do much better with the shipping. i think a pallet from humble abodes (100 deep boxes, 1000 frames, 100 custom cut shims) shipped for about $150. with one of the jars we use, shipping was costing us about $0.50/jar....on a pallet it went down to about $0.05/jar!
deknow
Quote from: deknow on January 21, 2010, 10:17:48 AM
shipping is always a big issue with woodenware (and glassware)....but it goes down to almost nothing if:
1. order in larger quantities (find other beekeepers to pitch in on an order).
2. have the order delivered to shipping address with a loading dock (if the truck must have a lift gate, you will pay extra for delivery)....find a local business that will let you use their dock if necessary.
when these things come _on_ a pallet rather than _in_ a box you will do much better with the shipping. i think a pallet from humble abodes (100 deep boxes, 1000 frames, 100 custom cut shims) shipped for about $150. with one of the jars we use, shipping was costing us about $0.50/jar....on a pallet it went down to about $0.05/jar!
deknow
Good Pointers you got there, deknow :-D
...it's also worth mentioning that like everyone else, truck drivers are people. some are nice, some are not...but they are all human. we get deliveries from the same company (usually the same driver). we always tip (hey, $10 will buy a sandwich and a drink...sometimes a jar of honey), and occasionally take the driver out to breakfast. these drivers know us, have our cell phone numbers, and call us before delivery (this kind of instruction doesn't always make it onto the paperwork). a driver you can rely on is part of what makes your business run smoothly.
everything is personal.
deknow
Are these standard dimension for a langstroth hive? What is the width of the top bar? and, do you still use the standard 10 frame per hive body. Is spacing the same?
Thanks,
Greg Watkevich
>Are these standard dimension for a langstroth hive?
Yes.
> What is the width of the top bar?
They are standard width.
> and, do you still use the standard 10 frame per hive body.
Yes.
> Is spacing the same?
Yes. I'd plane them down to 1 1/4" and put 11 in, but that's me...
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesframewidth.htm (http://www.bushfarms.com/beesframewidth.htm)
Quote from: Michael Bush on January 28, 2010, 12:33:12 PM
>Are these standard dimension for a langstroth hive?
Yes.
> What is the width of the top bar?
They are standard width.
> and, do you still use the standard 10 frame per hive body.
Yes.
> Is spacing the same?
Yes. I'd plane them down to 1 1/4" and put 11 in, but that's me...
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesframewidth.htm (http://www.bushfarms.com/beesframewidth.htm)
You like to start out with 11 frames I guessing untill they have drwan out comb? If that is the case to you go to 10 or 9 after they have been drawn out?
Thanks
Bee-nuts
No. In any area with brood I prefer the tighter spacing. For the why, try reading the page the link takes you to.
Quote from: Michael Bush on January 28, 2010, 07:06:20 PM
No. In any area with brood I prefer the tighter spacing. For the why, try reading the page the link takes you to.
Very interesting. It makes sense as well. The frames I got last year almost fit eleven per box. I think all I would have to do is run them across the belt sander quick. Dont know, but if I remember this come spring I will try it.
QuoteThe frames I got last year almost fit eleven per box. I think all I would have to do is run them across the belt sander quick. Dont know, but if I remember this come spring I will try it.
If I remember right, remove 1/8" off each side. of the frame. I used to use 11 per box but it is really really hard to get frames out once they start propolizing them. I went back to 10 per box in the brood boxes and wish I never trimmed down those frames.
>If I remember right, remove 1/8" off each side. of the frame.
1/16" off each side makes each frame 1/8" smaller e.g. 1 1/4" instead of 1 3/8". That is my target size, 1 1/4". 1/8" off each side will make it only 1 1/8".
Thanks for the correction. I know I was using what you recommended some time ago.