Well, I got my veil and smoker two days ago and immediately went out to check my hive. I was pretty sure all I saw were drone cells, but I was just not completely sure what I was looking at since I'd only seen pictures. Yesterday I went to a beekeeping seminar at Purdue University and got to see some healthy brood cells up close. I went back out to look at my hive again this morning (it's a top bar, just to be clear) and they were definitely all drone cells, and not all that well placed on the comb either. :( So I'm supposing I have workers laying. Is my hive doomed? Can I requeen? If so, anyone know where I can get one fast? My bees are from a swarm I collected myself and I'm pretty sure I had a queen then. I've never purchased bees.
Any advice would be very appreciated. I'm feeling very sad right now. :'(
There are some queen cage type introduction gadgets on the market, but I'm thinking you may be wasting your time if you go that route. It takes weeks for a caged queen to shut down laying workers. And during this time, the bee numbers will continue to decrease through natural attrition. And even after she is out and laying, it would take another 21 days for her eggs to become workers. So for any type of queen introduction process, you may be looking at another 4-6 weeks. And I'll put my money that SHB take over or just a complete breakdown of the hive and loss.
Since queens can not be introduced into laying worker colonies, and I find shaking bees out a waste also, it may be throwing money down the drain. Your in a tough position with no other hive to take brood from, combine, etc. Your option are limited, and your chances moving forward are small. I know this all sounds bad, but this is the situation I see.
It takes weeks for a laying worker colony to develop. (check more often) And having one hive limits your options (always good advice to have two hives)
Good luck.
Thanks. I just wish I had someone more experienced to come and double check me. Off to father's day dinner now. So stressed to not be able to stay home and figure this out RIGHT NOW. :(
Do you have anyway to take and download a picture for us? What part of Indiana are you in? I have friends moving there at the end of the summer who just got into bees the same time I did, no help now, but it would be nice to have beekeepers who could help each other out with bees or comb and stuff.
JC
I'll take some pictures as soon as I get home. Should be posted in about an hour. Would love some experienced eyes to take a look at what I've got.
(http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/6206/img2134t.th.jpg) (http://img580.imageshack.us/i/img2134t.jpg/)
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Not sure this is working. Preview is still just showing code. :( I'll post and see what shows up.
Ah, it's working. :) Here are a few more:
(http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/2209/img2141h.th.jpg) (http://img822.imageshack.us/i/img2141h.jpg/)
(http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/5711/img2154u.th.jpg) (http://img208.imageshack.us/i/img2154u.jpg/)
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The best I can tell from your pictures, (they are very good!) everything looks good to me. I can't see if they are domed, but I do see lots of larvae.
Others will give their opinion,
Steve
They all look fairly domed, to me, but maybe not as domed as I think? Maybe it's all worker and I've never seen drone? I just don't know. It doesn't look exactly like what I saw yesterday that were capped worker cells but that was a very well established hive and the caps looked darker and flatter.
I met the state bee inspector yesterday and asked if she could come out and see my hive. She said she'd be available later this week. There is also a beekeeper who lives nearby who invited me over to see his hives. I'll ask him to come have a look at mine as soon as he can. He said that he probably wouldn't know what he was looking at on my hive since it's a top bar, but I imagine the cells still look pretty much the same. He's been keeping bees for 40+ years so he knows his way around a bee. His sight isn't what it once was, though, or so he says. We'll see.
If it were to turn out to be the worst case scenario of laying workers could I give the bees to someone else to add to their hive? How do you combine hives?
here is a very good pic of both worker and drone brood.
http://www.tc.umn.edu/~reute001/images/poster%20156/Slide3.jpg (http://www.tc.umn.edu/~reute001/images/poster%20156/Slide3.jpg)
I see drone cells but I believe I see regular worker cells too. I would expect to see a lot more drones running around if it was truly a worker laying colony. You have good pictures but it is hard to really make out weather some of those are drone cells or not. You have to remember that you have natural comb and that you may just have lots of drone cells. I would take a magnifying glass and look for eggs. If you see two or three eggs in cells id be worried. If you see single eggs you might be ok. I have noticed in fresh drawn comb that is not deep as it should be that the cell capping will look like drone caps because they are trying to make enough room for the bees in the short cell. This may be your problem to an extent. Im not sure but what ever is laying is laying in comb as soon as its made. It should not take to long to determine if all those cells have drones in them cause you eill have a ton of them. I dont see many now at all.
I'd still describe it as more domed than the worker brood in the pic you shared KathyP. Maybe it is more like what you described Bee-nuts and the fresh cells are just a little shallow so they look more domed. Another thing is that it's not perfectly flat comb like in the picture you posted, Kathy and the comb I saw in the Langstroth hive yesterday, so maybe that is part of the problem, too. I do feel better after looking at my own pictures. I can see more of the brood than I could when I was out there (I have it in a rather shady spot--perhaps too shady--and the flash illuminated the comb really well). I thought a lot more of those cells were empty and the capping was more random when I looked at it in person.
At this point I'm going to assume I have a queen and just try to get someone out here to look at things with me as soon as possible.
I just looked at your pics again. I am pretty certain you are fine. I cant imagine this amount of brood as tight as it is from laying workers. I think you are find. Your brood looks very healthy too! I cant believe the one skinny comb did not break off when handling it. You must have a very steady, and patient hand. Good job.
Good luck
bee-nuts
Thanks so much for all your help and advice, Bee-nuts! I sure hope you're right. :) I'll keep you all posted.
Alina
I had laying workers a few years ago, the will lay in totaly random patterns and almost always more than one egg in a cell. A proper queen willl somtimes lay a few eggs in the same cell, but only occasionally. So to really determine wait a week, go back and look at the eggs. There will be alot more capped brood to compare, and eggs to look at. Also if you have a brand new queen, she might not be fully grown, making her harder to spot.
My first post on this forum - as much to find out how many stars I rate as to respond to the question.
I don't like to go against the grain and start a big flap, but I vote QX. Don't see anything in the pictures that looks normal. First off, a QX colony building comb do not build nice neat comb with regular spacing and adjoining hex spaces all in a neat row. They generally build oversized, irregular cells. Just what you see in the Pics.
Secondly, a colony in the early establishment mode expands the comb outward and downward from the starting point, populating cells with eggs/brood as the cells are built. This progression results in capped brood, older larvae, decreasing age larvae, down to eggs in shallow cells at the fringe. They literally build the cells around growing larvae.
Queen layed drone brood is generally batched in a given area and of the same age - solid. In contrast, laying workers produce a scattershot pattern of capped and larvae of different ages. Much like the pics show.
One last item: The natural swarm in the E mode has very little inclination to rear drones. They are more of a burden on the establishment process than an asset. But those capped cells look more like drone than worker to me. A little ratty, perhaps, but the whole thing looks grossly irregular.
I rest my case.
Walt W.
QuoteThey generally build oversized, irregular cells. Just what you see in the Pics.
when building natural comb, they build all sizes.
QuoteSecondly, a colony in the early establishment mode expands the comb outward and downward from the starting point, populating cells with eggs/brood as the cells are built. This progression results in capped brood, older larvae, decreasing age larvae, down to eggs in shallow cells at the fringe. They literally build the cells around growing larvae.
my bees didn't read your book. ;) i looked a one of my swarms today. they are building comb on several frames. some of the frames look much like a couple of these pics.
QuoteQueen layed drone brood is generally batched in a given area and of the same age - solid. In contrast, laying workers produce a scattershot pattern of capped and larvae of different ages. Much like the pics show.
while i agree that drone comb is usually separate from worker, i have frames with both and mixed. in fact this year there are more than the usual number of drone in all the hives. laying worker hives usually have drone scattered on many frames with many unfilled cells in between. this brood pattern looks pretty solid in spite of the drone cells.
QuoteThe natural swarm in the E mode has very little inclination to rear drones
again, depends. two of the swarms i picked up this year have more drone than i would have expected even in an established hive.
look at pic 4. that's the best indication that there is a queen. while she needs to watch that she does not have a bad queen, i don't believe that she is queenless. knowing the % of drone to worker brood (aprox) would help.
Drone comb looks like a kix cereal piece sticking up. Workers are slightly (very slightly) domed. Drones look like a box of round nose bullets.
Made a nice long post to Kathy to discuss this issue. When I tried to send it, was alerted that MB had posted in my keyboard time. Saw no way to review the new posting from there. And my text disappeared while trying to find a way. Hate this medium of communication.
Am not going to do it again, but the gist of it was: if this ragged comb is typical of TBH/natural comb, I will continue to avoid that approach. A colony in the establishment mode can only be adversly affected by the increase in drone burden. Concluded with the question: Can this be unique to the TBH??
Walt
QuoteCan this be unique to the TBH??
no. i'll have to assume that you have not had the opportunity to observe many hives outside the care of man. bees do not draw, especially when starting out, even and uniform comb/cells. they draw what they need at the time and eventually it becomes even. the cells are never uniform. different size cells are needed for different uses.
as for the drones, i would agree that they can be a drain on the hive, but i have come to the point that i trust the bees to make what they need. i do not know why i have so many drones this year. the weather was bad. maybe the mite load is higher this year. i just don't know. i do know that the drones will be kicked out in the fall and so i will observe and not interfere.
i don't do TBH,, but i do natural comb. saves money. gives me good wax. gives the bees the chance to make what they need.
if you look below where you are writing, you'll find the other posts for the thread. if someone else post before you, just hit the post button again. it is only giving you a chance to review what they wrote so that you can add or delete in your own.
Kathy:
Thanks for the tip on maneuvering.
Did quite a few cutouts in the early years. Don't remember them all, but do remember two cases of two colonies in the same structure. Would guess something upscale of a dozen.
It's difficult for me to imagine comb of this irregularity would not come to my attention in the tie-in process. We are saving brood comb, and that's what we're handling most. Possible, but IMO not likely. Considered myself a novice for 10 years, and the cutout period was in the 3 to 6 years range.
That leaves open the question of regionality. My bees operate in an area that supports repro swarming in accordance with their heritage.
They get it done right and on time.
Lost last night was the only times I've seen that irregular cell shape comb. Lost and QX bees that clustered for the mutual benifits, such as nest scouts doing their thing when the swarm was removed or escapees from a semi load with inadequate netting. Those would be senior bees or foragers above wax making/comb building age. How does that play out in your area?
Note that second generation comb in the lower right corner (new and white) is drawn in nice neat hexes in rows. It's difficult to tell in the photo, but it does look to be drone size. Tell me what that means to you.
Walt
it would be nice to see a shot across the frames to be sure. in pic 2 i see very small larvae. in pic 4 i am reasonably certain that most of those capped cells are worker. both these things indicate the presence, or at least recent presence of a queen. without knowing the ratio of worker to drone i would not hazard a guess about the quality of the queens work, but the brook pattern looks tight in spite of the drone cells.
in my opinion she's ok, should watch things, should consider replacing the queen if it looks like things are going south in another month or so.
we all know about opinions ;)
Lunawriter
Please let us know how this turns out!! Some more pics in a couple weeks would be nice. Look for that queen too and get a pic when you find her!!