he owns the land but not the bees. the bee owner estimated the damage at 6k which i felt was very conservative since they damaged 67 hive. the kids got caught because one showed up at school monday with stings around his eyes. they thought they were getting back at the "mean man" that lived there.
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b142/jgaito/40a8d47b.jpg)
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b142/jgaito/902f6e1b.jpg)
glad he got stung. now i hope he and his parents have to pay up. maybe a little work in the bee yard would be in order also.
Oh, man... That poor beek! Hope the kids have to bust butt to pay up.
i don't know about the financial end but the beek declined to press charges saying he just wanted for it not to happen again.
i darn sure would be looking for cash and i think it would be a good idea to force those kids to help put things back together.
i might just have a positive effect on one of them to see what damage they did and how fascinating the bees are.
This is one reason I am scared were to put my bees, if someone ain't stealing hives, they are knocking them over or running over them with trucks. Hatred of bees is just ignorance.
Do you think it's actually hatred of bees or just literally sitting targets? I'm thinking the thrilling possibility of 100s of stings would get the adrenaline of a teen boy flowing. Who knows?
How old was these kids?
It's one thing to teach a lesson to a young child, like when I got caught with a bunch of balloons as a 5 year old that I pocketed while my mom was not watching. My mom marched me back down the street to the store to face the consequences.
It's another to allow a 17 year old to get off scott free with the destruction.
Where were the parents?. The school noticed and knew something was wrong, but the parents are clueless of just not what happened, but the physical appearance of their child.
The child needs a lesson.
The parents are idiots.
The beekeeper perpetuated this or other behavior down the road by letting the kids get away with it.
I feel no sympathy.
Maybe next time, the real lesson for the parents will be a dead kid, shot from intruding on someones property. They may learn their lesson. I know the kids certainly will.
I'm surprised the landowner and beekeeper are not being sued from not having the proper signs and fencing, which endangered the lives of these young kids and possibly could of killed them from the stings. That is normally how this all plays out.
Targets of opportunity for bored teenage boys looking for excitement and to prove their toughness. Sadly, it's something I could have done at that age. I expect Karma to visit me someday with this at my hives. Making them deal and work for the person whom they've done to pay off the debt, would be the most effective way to teach them a lesson that a person was adversely affected by their actions. The embarrassment would teach them responsibility and humility at an age in their lives where there is little. It could also start a friendship and an interest in bees.
Quotebut the parents are clueless of just not what happened
for the most part i agree with you. i do remember when my oldest, who had always been honest and reliable, took up with some kids in school and started getting into some trouble. it took me a long time to make the switch from believing what he was telling me, to realizing he'd become untrustworthy.
even so....both the kids and parents need to be held accountable. the kids so that they don't think they can get away with crap, and the parents so that they can realize that junior ain't the angel they may have thought him to be.
Quote from: D Coates on July 16, 2010, 12:48:39 PM
Targets of opportunity for bored teenage boys looking for excitement and to prove their toughness. Sadly, it's something I could have done at that age. I expect Karma to visit me someday with this at my hives. Making them deal and work for the person whom they've done to pay off the debt, would be the most effective way to teach them a lesson that a person was adversely affected by their actions. The embarrassment would teach them responsibility and humility at an age in their lives where there is little. It could also start a friendship and an interest in bees.
Perfect solution, and a sympathetic one. I did stupid things at a young age, too.
Quote from: D Coates on July 16, 2010, 12:48:39 PM
Targets of opportunity for bored teenage boys looking for excitement and to prove their toughness. Sadly, it's something I could have done at that age. I expect Karma to visit me someday with this at my hives. Making them deal and work for the person whom they've done to pay off the debt, would be the most effective way to teach them a lesson that a person was adversely affected by their actions. The embarrassment would teach them responsibility and humility at an age in their lives where there is little. It could also start a friendship and an interest in bees.
As much as I hate to admit it, this is how I became interested in taking care of sheep. Some friends and I thought it would be fun to leave a gate open to see what would happen with sheep running all over the neighborhood.
In addition to my parents paying my/their portion of the damage, I was sentenced to put in 50 hours of service to the injured Shepherd. One of my cohorts and myself became interested and developed a long friendship with a sheep mentor and lifelong love of sheep raising. The best part is passing down to my children and grandchildren the subtle art of shepherding.
Now my grandson and I are learning beekeeping together.
This beek passed on a great opportunity by giving them a pass.
I agree with BjornBee, that is what would happen in NY :roll:
It would be Hell on Earth for the Parents if it were my bees, nobody gets a free ride, nobody. :-x
"They thought they were getting back at the "mean man" that lived there."
Just perhaps the mean man forgave the kids and wanted them to know that he's not such a bad guy after all.
One such possibility.
If it were me, I would have the kids workin' bees with me for the next two seasons. Perhaps good could come out of it.
That would be my approach.
...JP
Quote from: BeeHopper on July 16, 2010, 10:37:22 PM
It would be Hell on Earth for the Parents if it were my bees, nobody gets a free ride, nobody. :-x
I agree 100%, ....unless of course I caught them in the act.......that would be bad for them indeed, but then again, I am very strange..... :-D
Off Topic
Quote from: BjornBee on July 16, 2010, 12:28:04 PM
I'm surprised the landowner and beekeeper are not being sued from not having the proper signs and fencing, which endangered the lives of these young kids and possibly could of killed them from the stings. That is normally how this all plays out.
If this is
normal, they why does it make news when it happens?
Your statement is bogus.
Many states have laws that protect the rights of landowners from being sued by trespassers. These laws were mostly introduced by hunting and fishing groups to help keep land from being posted. I don't post my land. People are welcome to hunt, fish and hike here. If your state (http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/billinfo/billinfo.cfm?syear=2007&sind=0&body=H&type=B&BN=0013) doesn't have satisfactory landowner protection legislation, maybe you should contact your state representatives instead of bellyaching.
There are some extreme and oddball lawsuits, but the truth is that most people that suffer damages from another are not compensated anywhere near the value of loss. Most people are busy living their own lives. Most people that slip on the proverbial "icy sidewalk" limp away and lick their own wounds.
I agree with you Jp. Even though I deal with this kind of thing everyday it will surprise you of what some victims do and say. It seems the older the person is the more they are to say no charges and just dont do it again. The younger the victim is, adult age, the more likly they are to say press charges. That is the norm but right when you think you got it figured out it changes.
I just had a run in with my two kids about a month back. Luckly my neighbor allowed my daughter to clean up her mess plus some with me sitting in my chair watching her do the work. Where was I when it happened? Dont know! That is a good point but as the kids get older a parent has to hope they taught their kids the best and then the kids have to make their own decisions and live with it. :soapbox:
Quote from: BoBn on July 17, 2010, 01:00:39 AM
Off Topic
Quote from: BjornBee on July 16, 2010, 12:28:04 PM
I'm surprised the landowner and beekeeper are not being sued from not having the proper signs and fencing, which endangered the lives of these young kids and possibly could of killed them from the stings. That is normally how this all plays out.
If this is normal, they why does it make news when it happens?
Your statement is bogus.
I didn't think it was a comment to point a finger and call another person's opinion "bogus". But, you want to make a deal about it....fine.
I didn't add the little smiley with the "rolling eyes" as I thought perhaps most would get the sarcasm or jest of the comment. Of course we all heard of the stupid crook that broke in the store window to rob the place and then sued due his cutting himself on the broken window crawling out while carrying a television. But thank you for the clarification and setting me straight as to my comments being bogus. From your statement, I think perhaps you understood more than your letting on concerning my post, and I'm not all that sure a little smiley would of helped. But I'll tuck it away for future reference.
Sounds to me like like $6000.00 in community service is owed to this beekeeper. We had a bald eagle statue (ten or twelve feet high and wide) spray painted by kids. The kids were ordered by the court to pay for damages and had to repaint the eagle for community service. I think this type of punishment is the best way to deal with it the first offense and then real hard punishment it that doesn't teach them anything. How else do you teach these youngsters the value of things and why these things deserve respect.
I work with at risk individuals. I can understand no charges, because having a record can really mess a kid up employment wise now. But for the kids to get anything out of this other than either unresolvable guilt (not as likely nowadays) or the reinforced impression that they can act like savages and destroy other peoples property and livelyhood, they need to make retribution.
They should have to sit down with their parents, the beekeeper and the "mean man" who owns the land and work out community service. And then they should actually have to do the community service.
In our area, community service is figured at $10/hr, making $6000 worth 600 hours. One should be able to learn quite a bit about beekeeping, consequences of bad decisions, taking personal responsibility, and the value of work in that amount of time.
I know my parents would have required that we work for the beekeeper, the injured party, AND an equivalent 600 hours for the INTENDED victim.
We discussed this with our kids, and they agreed that if you tried to hurt someone and failed, the punishment should be the same as if you had been successful.
I would not hold my breathe waiting for parents to "enforce" some agreed upon solution for the very kids they have no control over anyways.
"records" are exactly that. a record of one's crimes, and suggestive of character, morals and principles.
Don't want to give the poor kid a record, then get a incident report, and sue the parents for full damages in civil court. Criminal court make the perpetrator pay for a crime by punishment terms. Civil cases, (small claims court if under $5000) makes the person pay for the liability of the crime with restitution to the victim.
As a minimum, full restitution ordered by the court is the way I would be going. Unless I had a check from the parents. And I would not be looking for some "liability" issue by having this kid working on my farm to start with. Next thing you know, the kid may just be moving in the beekeeper's "former" home.... :roll:
It will be interesting to see if the parents write a $6000 check, or force their kid to do that much community service. I got twenty that the beekeeper gets nothing, the kid gets off, and the parents remain a missing link.
Let judge Judy do it.... :-D
Mommy and daddy bailing out thier kids teaches them the wrong thing. Personal liability and responsibility is they way to go. Not only that but this could be a real good character building opportunity for this youngster. It may just be the first opportunity for this kid to learn something that does not involve, TV, PC's, or Vid games.
As far as the kids record goes, its clean after the age of 18, and if older they can wipe it clean if kid complies with court orders and stays out of trouble.
I asked my oldest child again, who is 10 what he thinks about it now, after a few days. He feels that ALL of the kids should ALL have to do the same amount of community service, because they all were responsible for choosing to participate. They all had free choice, chose wrong, and have consequences to pay.
Or, if the beekeeper did not want them to work, they should all have to pay, because they were all in on it. If you rob a bank, all of you get charged with robbing a bank and pay the penalty, not 1/6th of the penalty, just because you were in a gang of 6. Brings it close to the biblical if you steal (destroy), you must repay 7fold.
If someone did that to him, he would want to be paid for everything, every single bee, future proceeds, the honey ruined on the ground. The time it took to build it, and will take to rebuild it. And he would expect to be expected to do that, if he had been involved.
It saddens me that it does not sound like any parents have stepped forward to use this as an opportunity to teach their child what is right, and how to try to right a wrong they have done.
You know how it was the honey bees fault for minding their own business, working, and being in the middle of a posted field! :roll: Never the kids fault, they were enticed to tresspass, destroy, and kill livestock(bees) because they were their! :roll: I have a WIDE LEATHER BELT and I would WHIP their parents butts and then since I couldn't do it to their kids I would send them to JUVI! :evil: See how they like cleaning toilets and taking shower with men for a couple of years with no game systems or girlfriends. Sometimes you gotta learn the hard way, if mom and pop won't teach...... :evil: :-D
Full restitution to the beek, and records for the kids, and a warning to the parents that the next time their little darlings are in trouble, they will be serving time too.
i'd go for full restitution and working it off. don't know about the record if the kids haven't been in trouble before. sometimes kids are just stupid. they don't think before they act and they don't think about what they are doing to animals/insects at all. now....if they already have been in trouble, that's another thing.
many a kid has been saved by hard labor and learning about the things that they have damaged.
had a kid that ran his ATV through one of the newly planted fields here. the farmer told the parents that he'd not take them to court if the kid came and replanted. took quite a while and lots of hard work, but the job was done (with some help) and i bet the kid will never run his ATV through another field.
Quote from: Livefreeordie on July 16, 2010, 11:52:31 PM
I agree 100%, ....unless of course I caught them in the act.......that would be bad for them indeed, but then again, I am very strange..... :-D
What...would you keep them corralled in the area where the bees are till the cops arrive? :evil:
I guess the response to the kids is alway predicated on how the parents act. If parents go all defensive, then the only option is the judicial system. Otherwise some hard work is in order. I'd rather have had spent a lot of time working than to have a record.
My kids are too young to do anything really bad, but they've been escorted to a few houses for some apologies already (non-destructive stupidity, and trying to keep it that way). I hate it almost as much as they do, but they know that if they try anything worse then they will be paying with apologies, time, and money.
Rick
What a devastatingly stupid act. I agree with BoBn that in most states the landowner (but not necessarily the beek) is protected from prosecution by a trespasser, and as most of you have said the young punk should have to ante up here. If it were me, I would have negotiated for community service AND an essay on the importance of beekeeping and bees. As for a record affecting a kid's future employment, I thought juvenile records were sealed after the age of 18. Is that no longer the case?
Playing With Bees (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfH2-9Tlxi0&feature=related#)
Their parents should buy them guns or gas and matches to play with.
The only way I'd handle a situation like that would be to get a police report and inform the teenagers' parents of the damages. Then clearly explain that the only thing that would prevent me from pressing charges would be full repayment, or a notarized contract stating their debt with a specific repayment schedule with clearly defined penalties for failure to pay.
beehive (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJmlkv2mCUw&feature=related#)
Watching this kind of stuff kinda makes me want to wake up my 3 year old and give him a spanking for things to come.
Bee hive kicking spree (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQrqywZtnNY&feature=related#)
And this ain't kids, hold my beer, watch this.
Quote from: Scadsobees on July 20, 2010, 11:04:24 AM
Quote from: Livefreeordie on July 16, 2010, 11:52:31 PM
I agree 100%, ....unless of course I caught them in the act.......that would be bad for them indeed, but then again, I am very strange..... :-D
What...would you keep them corralled in the area where the bees are till the cops arrive? :evil:
The way I figure it, any kid capable of destroying someones property like that, doesn't deserve another chance. I have seen it too many times, unless the action is swift and severe, the kid will go on to bigger and more destructive episodes. I am not a three strike kind of guy. You destroy my property and I catch you, you are old enough for a severe a** whoopin. If a parent hasn't taught their little juvenile delinquents better than that by that age, they are no better. Sorry, I think sparing them the record is enabling future acts.
I do like the idea of letting the bees sting the crap out of them though.
Makes me want to vomit.
I have a "Guard Bees on Duty" sign on my property that I put there to keep out a couple of kids next door who had stolen my kid's bike. They're moving out this week, but if they or anyone like them ever did this to *my* hives, I'd whup their butts, if my girls didn't get to them first.
Storm
This is where you wish you had some AHB for the kids to play with!