could starting out with a spring nuc produce a honey crop the first year?
Yes, but not likely.
If we are talking about a nuc put together in the spring, probably not but maybe. If we are talking about an overwintered nuc, probably.
Quote from: Michael Bush on August 14, 2010, 02:43:47 AM
If we are talking about a nuc put together in the spring, probably not but maybe. If we are talking about an overwintered nuc, probably.
Although an overwintered nuc has some advantages to the buyer, such as knowing the queen has come through winter, if that is what you want, I fail to see the production value difference in whether it is overwintered or made up. If your buying 3-4 frames of brood, a frame of honey, and a queen that is laying, and the same number of bees, then how is one suggested to be better from a production standpoint?
I sell both. And I advertise that I sell both. Some people want overwintered queens, while others prefer a spring raised queen which almost insures a made up nuc. Some people simply do not want last years queen knowing the benefits of first year queens and the better survival aspects of a queen going through winter the first year.
But if I take an overwintered nuc, and one just put together, and sell them together, they are of the same quality in regards to bees and numbers, etc., (and should be of what is demanded from others), then I am missing something as to why one will make honey and one will not.
As a nuc producer, and one that knows and has seen many other nuc producers, not all overwintered nucs come though winter looking like winners with 4 frames of brood and a perfect frame of honey. Sometimes nucs come through with a couple frames of bees and they take forever to get going due to dynamics of a small cluster, etc. Nuc producers routinely swap frames, take out unwanted frames of honey, and manipulate frames, in getting nucs ready for orders. There is nothing wrong with that and is what you do to provide a good product. And don't let anyone kid you.....we all do it! I would bet that almost all nucs could be labeled as "made up" in some degree.
So this whole "nucs made up" comments apply to almost all nucs out there, and just leads to misinformation and ideas.
What does have a play in honey production is the quality and timing of picking up nucs. But whether one is over overwintered and manipulated, or made up, means little. That is not to say that there are not poor producers who make up nucs and put in bought queens, and have crappy nucs from untested queens and poor quality, but that is a different subject.
As to beekeepers wanting a first year crop from nucs or packages, I think many are sold a bill of goods that does not always result in what they were sold. You may get honey from a package or a nuc. But the main goal of any first year hive is to get them built up the first year to make it through winter. I hear of way too many beekeepers being disappointed after NOT getting honey the first year and blaming themselves or asking what went wrong. And that is something we should be brutally honest with beekeepers getting into beekeeping. Yes, perhaps with a great location and the ducks all lining up perfectly (don't we all wish this happened every year) you may see extra honey. But what we get many times are disappointed beekeepers after the first year with no 50 pounds of honey per hive in production.
I sell nucs all summer long to beekeepers who understand that the first year goal is building a hive to get through the first winter. They have no false illusions that they are trying to get a first year honey crop. They want first year queens, and know that buying nucs this year even if it is past the earlier package delivery dates, ensures them of the genetics they want, and will allow them to not buy packages in the spring. Something many beekeepers in the north are attempting to get away from. And they would rather get northern nucs from local sources.
I started a five-frame nuc with queen cells on April 29th this year. Once the queen was mated in May, I put them into a hive and put it at a friend's house. Her land butts up against a wild cherry woods, and neighbors on both sides grow apples, plums, blueberries, and blackberries. July 2nd I pulled 6 fully capped med. frames of honey and left 4 frames that weren't capped. Plus, both deeps were filled with both bees and full comb! This nuc outgrew and out performed both my 2nd year hives at home! I also started a nuc off this hive in July! Location! Location! Location!
I set up a young lady with four drawn frames with a queen this spring. She pulled a full medium worth of honey and extracted this about six weeks ago.
I spoke with her about a week ago.
She has two deeps and two mediums on this very strong hive.
I have a hive in my Dad's backyard that was started as a swarm in a single deep this spring. They are ready for a fifth box now.
So, I would mirror what the Fireman said, location, location, location.
...JP
Most of my May and June nucs made honey for me to rob. I think it depends on your lactation, your weather and good queens. If all three are great, you could have all kinds of honey
I've overwintered nucs and I've made them up in the spring. I have done a lot of both. The overwintered nuc by far outproduce the spring nucs. This observation is also consistent with Kirk Webster's and Mike Palmer's observations as well as Brother Adam. But apparently not consistent with yours.
QuoteI think it depends on your lactation, your weather and good queens
spell check error? :evil:
lol
Possible. Hived a swarm in mid May on comb that made 2 supers. Had overwintered hives that made 1. Go figure.
Quote from: BjornBee on August 14, 2010, 08:55:32 AM
Quote from: Michael Bush on August 14, 2010, 02:43:47 AM
If we are talking about a nuc put together in the spring, probably not but maybe. If we are talking about an overwintered nuc, probably.
Although an overwintered nuc has some advantages to the buyer, such as knowing the queen has come through winter, if that is what you want, I fail to see the production value difference in whether it is overwintered or made up. If your buying 3-4 frames of brood, a frame of honey, and a queen that is laying, and the same number of bees, then how is one suggested to be better from a production standpoint?
I sell both. And I advertise that I sell both. Some people want overwintered queens, while others prefer a spring raised queen which almost insures a made up nuc. Some people simply do not want last years queen knowing the benefits of first year queens and the better survival aspects of a queen going through winter the first year.
But if I take an overwintered nuc, and one just put together, and sell them together, they are of the same quality in regards to bees and numbers, etc., (and should be of what is demanded from others), then I am missing something as to why one will make honey and one will not.
As a nuc producer, and one that knows and has seen many other nuc producers, not all overwintered nucs come though winter looking like winners with 4 frames of brood and a perfect frame of honey. Sometimes nucs come through with a couple frames of bees and they take forever to get going due to dynamics of a small cluster, etc. Nuc producers routinely swap frames, take out unwanted frames of honey, and manipulate frames, in getting nucs ready for orders. There is nothing wrong with that and is what you do to provide a good product. And don't let anyone kid you.....we all do it! I would bet that almost all nucs could be labeled as "made up" in some degree.
So this whole "nucs made up" comments apply to almost all nucs out there, and just leads to misinformation and ideas.
What does have a play in honey production is the quality and timing of picking up nucs. But whether one is over overwintered and manipulated, or made up, means little. That is not to say that there are not poor producers who make up nucs and put in bought queens, and have crappy nucs from untested queens and poor quality, but that is a different subject.
As to beekeepers wanting a first year crop from nucs or packages, I think many are sold a bill of goods that does not always result in what they were sold. You may get honey from a package or a nuc. But the main goal of any first year hive is to get them built up the first year to make it through winter. I hear of way too many beekeepers being disappointed after NOT getting honey the first year and blaming themselves or asking what went wrong. And that is something we should be brutally honest with beekeepers getting into beekeeping. Yes, perhaps with a great location and the ducks all lining up perfectly (don't we all wish this happened every year) you may see extra honey. But what we get many times are disappointed beekeepers after the first year with no 50 pounds of honey per hive in production.
I sell nucs all summer long to beekeepers who understand that the first year goal is building a hive to get through the first winter. They have no false illusions that they are trying to get a first year honey crop. They want first year queens, and know that buying nucs this year even if it is past the earlier package delivery dates, ensures them of the genetics they want, and will allow them to not buy packages in the spring. Something many beekeepers in the north are attempting to get away from. And they would rather get northern nucs from local sources.
I understand your math perfectly, how could two of the same thing be different? I think it depends on location as well....and Mike, you have that Nuc with my name on it for this spring right??......
Question (and likely a bit of a hijack but hopefully not too much): When does one make a nuc that would be overwintered? Is now too late?
Quote from: Pond Creek Farm on August 15, 2010, 10:33:47 PM
Question (and likely a bit of a hijack but hopefully not too much): When does one make a nuc that would be overwintered? Is now too late?
I hope not!
Quote from: JP on August 14, 2010, 10:28:41 PM
I set up a young lady with four drawn frames with a queen this spring. She pulled a full medium worth of honey and extracted this about six weeks ago.
I spoke with her about a week ago.
She has two deeps and two mediums on this very strong hive.
I have a hive in my Dad's backyard that was started as a swarm in a single deep this spring. They are ready for a fifth box now.
So, I would mirror what the Fireman said, location, location, location.
...JP
Whether or not any hive of bees; Swarm, package, nuc, over-sintered nuc, 1st, 2nd, or 3rd year hive will produce any quantity of havestable honey depends on several factors.
1. Productivity of the queen, how full is each brood frame, how many frames, how many boxes of brood. A good queen will fill 80%+ both sides of each brood frame, fill 8 frames of brood per box and have 2 or more brood boxes. A queen that can do all that will produce enough worker bees for a harvestable crop of some size if...
2. Adequate Forage is a requirement, in an area where you have multiple hives but low yeilds for harvest you will probably find you are over whelming your available forage for the number of bees in the bee yard. Low yield reduce the hive numbers. In the case of inadequate forage the hive will adapt the brood production to meet the forage, that is, reducing brood production.
3. Good hive management. Attention paid to ventilation, varroa screens, timely supering, etc. Bad or indifferent hive management can result in swarm factories instead of honey production.
I have taken packages in April, with good queens, placed them on undrawn foundation, and produced 2 ( & sometimes more) supers of honey beside the 2 brood boxes developed along the way on a number of occassions.
But to do it I had a queen that laid in at least 8 of 10 frames, laid at least 80% of each frame in brood, and did that with 2 or more boxes in the brood chamber. Those hives were placed on sites that provided more forage than the available bee population could harvest so they could maximize their labors.