I am having my morning coffee sitting by the hive just watching my girls (8:15 a.m.) and after a while I look to my left at the yaupon holly tree next to the hive and low and behold there is a small swarm of bees (about the size of a medium spaghetti squash) hanging quietly about head high in the yaupon. This isn't 4 feet from the hive. They are very quiet. I thought I had lost a swarm about 2-3 days ago after I did a powdered sugar treatment and angry them off.
What should I do? Try to capture them and put them back in the hive? I don't have any extra woodenware to start a new hive, (well I have boxes and frames but no top or bottom boards on hand) and it is too late in the season to try and make a split out of them, isn't it I was planning on doing a split first thing next spring. I noticed when I was in last Thursday for the p.s. treatment that I must have a new queen as the laying pattern was beautiful--several frames nearly completely full of capped brood right in the middle of the box where you would expect it -- the laying pattern had been pretty spotty, helter skelter most of the summer. I sure would hate to lose that new(er) queen. But if I put the swarm back in there's a good chance I'll end up with dueling queens. If I could find the queens (which I am terrible at) I wouldn't know which one to squash. I guess I could let them fight it out.
I am guessing that swarm isn't going to hang around all day. Aren't they just waiting for scout bees to find them a more permanent location. What to do? What to do this late in the season.
Linda
you can hive them and just put some plywood over the top and bottom. leave them a little entrance somewhere and feed them. i'd put them away from your other hive, cut a lid size hole in the top piece of plywood (or whatever) and pop a jar of syrup on top.
the entrance is no big deal. any smallish hole will do. you can worry about a proper cover and bottom later.
Kathy, that is essentially what I did. I had one medium box from the honey super I pulled last week so improvised a top and bottom for it and left the top ajar so they could come and go. I couldn't find the queen but must have got her cause nobody is left in the yaupon and they are coming and going out of the box pretty calmly now. I will move them farther away from my other hive later today. Just giving them time to settle down.
I was able to cobble 5 frames together to put in the 8 frame box, including two frames where I cut the honey out of the middle, but they had some empty drawn comb on them and I left a little honey behind as food and a guide to see if they will build out without me adding any foundation back. This will do until I can figure out a more permanent situation for them.
I have read where 5 frame nucs have overwintered OK. I can always pull a frame or two of brood from my other hive if need be. And I also wondered if I could keep them up on my covered back patio over the winter where it would be a little warmer and they would be protected from snow and winter winds. Then put them in a full sized hive next spring.
Or could I just set this box they are in now back on top of the old hive with a queen excluder between them and see if I can run a two queen set up until next spring?
Quote from: ldaxon on September 13, 2010, 01:38:23 PM
Or could I just set this box they are in now back on top of the old hive with a queen excluder between them and see if I can run a two queen set up until next spring?
I think the other possibilities you mention are better. This sounds like a recipe for trouble. You may keep the queens separated with an excluder, but you will have bees from different hives in close contact. That means fighting, robbing, and maybe an attempt to kill the queen on the other side.
the only reason to move them is if you are only feeding that one. if you are feeding all, you do not need to move them. and i agree, don't put them on another hive.
I was talking about putting them on top of the hive they came out of, but I won't even do that. I will keep them separate.
I did take one good solid frame of honey and pollen plus bees (no brood) out of the hive they came out of and gave it to them, along with 4 frames I was extracting today anyway where I cut most of the honey out (I crush and strain) but left a rim 1-2 inches wide around the perimeter so they have some honey and a bit of drawn but empty cells, and 3 basically new plastic frames w/out any foundation drawn out yet (that equals 8 frames). I'll just order a new screened bottom board and inner cover & telescoping top and see if I can winter them over in a one box 8 medium brood chamber on my covered back patio (which is pretty large). Of course I will feed the dickens out of them between now and the end of the season, which around here is probably the end of October with maybe some flight days in November, never can tell about Oklahoma weather.
Practically, what it seems like I am really doing is a split, a very late split, kind of forced on me by the hive itself, which I knew was too crowded. I just have to be careful that I don't weaken the original hive (3 brood chambers), and lose them both. If the swarm makes it, I'll be that much farther ahead. If not, I'm sure I'll be able to catch some feral swarms next spring and get a start on my second hive. . . It is all a learning experience.
just make sure you have a queen. after swarms can have virgins or sometimes no queen. give them a good week or so and then check every week for signs of the queen. if you don't see eggs in 3 weeks or so, or find the queen, you'll need to recombine them.
Yah, Kathy, I am beginning to wonder if I got the/a queen. I watched them a while this morning and they seem a little listless -- not really coming and going with a sense of purpose like I think a swarm trying to build a new home would be. I could always pull a frame of eggs from the old hive and give them the opportunity to raise a queen if they need one.
At this point I am beginning to wonder if any of this is worth the effort. I will wait a couple weeks like you suggested and if I get the feeling they are just hanging out, I could recombine, though I don't think the other hive needs any extra mouths to feed at this point. . . . And if I get a laying worker started, would she quit laying if she suddenly found herself in a hive with another queen?
Well, glory be. I got into the swarm box this afternoon and found the queen there after all. I was shocked she was there (based on how they were acting) and shocked I found her, though she was on a frame that didn't have too many bees on it. Didn't really see any evidence of her laying yet. But I pulled a fully drawn out frame from my other hive and put it in so she can start laying right away now if she wants to. I put a top feeder on yesterday. I'll check back in a week and see if there is any evidence that she is laying. I guess if I had to I could pull a couple of frames of bees from the original hive (which is quite strong) to help build the swarm's numbers and give them some more workers to help them build up before winter sets in.
I finally got into the bottom medium brood box. The frames had no foundation. The bees had coiled the comb throughout the box. It was a mess but had tons of brood. Fortunately not much honey in that comb so I carefully manipulated the frames and comb into a new medium box. Actually 2 new mediums. I filled the space between and around the brood frames with fresh built out frames wherever possible.
There were a few combs that were not in frames with brood. I didn't know how to wire them into new frames so I just laid them carefully between pother frames as a temporary fix.
Tell me more about how to wire this frameless comb into frames.
I have yet to spot the queen in this hive. Just way too many bees and it's too disorganized to make any sense of the situation.
The plan is to have the 2 mediums on bottom acting as a brood box and work up from there. I still have that shallow on top that needs to be transferred into a medium but need to know more about hanging that comb in frames before I get into that.
QuoteI didn't know how to wire them into new frames so I just laid them carefully between pother frames as a temporary fix.
don't do this. it will be a mess again. do it like a cutout and use rubber bands. the fat ones from an office supply place are my favorites. if the comb has nothing in it, or the pieces are to small to band in, just take it out. you might sacrifice some brood, but you'll save yourself a mess later.
Hi Kathyp,
how do you use rubber bands to hang the comb?
Watch some of JPs videos in the Removal section of this forum and you can see it in action there.
JC
I did it,
yesterday I put the brood comb into empty frames using rubber bands and replaced the lower rotted out medium box. The guard bees were at red alert. I assume it's from 2 days in a row of my intrusion. The bottom medium still has a little wacky comb but the bees "should" move up and out of that box eventually.
My plan now is to feed them back some honey and leave them alone for a while. My thoughts are that if I feed them honey from the top it will help displace the brood in the upper shallow and give them some extra energy to build and repair comb.
This has really been fun.
I still have not spotted the queen. Hopefully when things get more organized she will be easier to pin point. I have plenty of brood in all stages so she must be in there somewhere as long as I didn't kill her doing the cut out.
Update on the small September swarm I caught last fall.
I ended up wintering them in a 5 frame medium nuc 2 boxes deep on my back porch. Not only did they make it through the winter just fine, they threw off a huge swarm two weeks ago which I caught, but they absconded overnight. Now I have them in 3 8-frame mediums and they are doing very well. I never thought they would make it through the winter. Sure hope i get some honey out of them this year.
ld
SUCCESS!
I harvested 60lbs off this hive yesterday and split it.
Super Bees!
Great to hear Mason!!