My hives face South. They receive the most amount of direct sunlight in the afternoon come Winter (southwest side), Yet, the cluster tends to be on the East side of the hive. I would think it's warmer for them to be on the Western side. Do they not cluster based on available heat?
They make their own heat.
thomas
REALLY!? If your going to be insulting I'd rather you didn't respond.
I've never meet a beek that didn't know that. The question relates to why the bees choose the cooler side of the hive vs. the warmer side of the hive. They expend a great amount of energy keeping the cluster warm. Clustering towards the Sun provided warmth may, i think, help them more that Away from the warmth. But that does not seem to be the case here. I was wondering about the significance of it. Does it mean I'm doing some thing wrong.
:?)jeez...wasn't trying to be insulting, just trying to answer a question. Years of extensive temp testing inside colonies prove it makes little dif to the bees where the cluster is located nor that they have a particular preference, over any one side. All of my lang colonies have clusters "currently" on the North/West sides. We had zero degrees for our low last night. My only colony with its cluster toward s/e (and the entrance) is in a home-made "long" hive, which also remains my happiest.
So much for assumptions, heh?
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Bees cannot move the cluster according sun movement
according my experience the cluster starts there where the last brood were.
That is why I move all broodframes down in 2 box hive.
If the cluster is small, it takes another side. Not the centre.
Cluster starts wintering near the entrance and it moves backwards during winter..
If i put a heather inside the hive, they cluster around the heat source.
In my country sun does not heat hives any more. Clusters use to be in centre near the entrance.
Quote from: T Beek on December 02, 2010, 01:46:48 PM
Years of extensive temp testing inside colonies prove it makes little dif to the bees where the cluster is located nor that they have a particular preference, over any one side. All of my lang colonies have clusters "currently" on the North/West sides. We had zero degrees for our low last night. My only colony with its cluster toward s/e (and the entrance) is in a home-made "long" hive, which also remains my happiest.
Thank you, that's helpful. Do you find that the same colonies cluster in the same location year after year? I say that because i see that in mine.
'Long Hive', is that a TBH or something else?
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Sorry about the knee jerk reaction.
It sounded like you going to tell me next that the funny white boxes filled with bugs in my backyard are Beehives and that they make Honey & that the sky is Blue... :evil:
just sounds like you done got a chip on yo shoulder
As a lifelong "ludite", dragged into the 21st century kicking and screaming, I've found that Jumping to conclusions seems to be one of the primary flaws of these forums. Its one of the reasons I so seldom come around. There was never any intentional slam meant on my part, although there's plenty of examples around here and other forums. Your relaxed (and rare 8-)) response was/is apreciated.
My "long hive" is simply a box designed to fit 36 medium frames, kinda like a tbh but w/ frames. The bees really do seem more content when working them, compared w/ the langs. Honey is harvested like a tbh. I originally built it to be a tbh, but changed my mind after reading Michael Bush's site. And Its so easy to work I'm going to build a few more this winter.
thomas
Quote from: Finski on December 02, 2010, 02:04:20 PM
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Bees cannot move the cluster according sun movement
according my experience the cluster starts there where the last brood were.
That is why I move all brood-frames down in 2 box hive.
If the cluster is small, it takes another side. Not the centre.
Cluster starts wintering near the entrance and it moves backwards during winter..
If i put a heather inside the hive, they cluster around the heat source.
In my country sun does not heat hives any more. Clusters use to be in centre near the entrance.
happens all the time with SMALL colonies -they gravitate toward the sun warmed side of the box
and all of a sudden a cold snap comes through for a few days and bees hunker down and make there own heat- but it is to cold to break cluster- and if the food reserves are on the other side of the hive out of reach- they will starve
-every year there are posts about this -and we stress the importance of having reserves above the bees so they can get to it ;) -RDY-B
Finski,Populations are good. One has always been strong. The other is a combination between 2 strong colonies; one lost its queen in Fall. I'll check the inspection records to see if they are indeed clustering where the last brood where. I think they are though. Our Winters aren't nearly as bad as yours. Sunny days above 50f degrees happen several times a month.
bud1, Quote from: bud1 on December 02, 2010, 02:30:28 PM
just sounds like you done got a chip on yo shoulder
Oh brother and is it a big one. I'm always getting mistaken for Atlas... :-D
T Beek,I've wanted to do more than just Langs. I'll look into the Long hive too, Thanks
rdy-b,They have a full 10 frames of honey & pollen in each box. Back filling went well this year for them. But I've not seen them move much before. They like to stay in the same spot. So it looks like they're well enough off to solely rely on their own ability to create heat. Sounds good so far. Thanks
They move throughout the winter based on food location, but warmth is a factor I'm sure as well.
stupid question!! but how do you know where the cluster is without opening the hive up and I thought that would be a realy bad idea when it is COLD?
Quote from: rgy on December 03, 2010, 09:29:20 AM
stupid question!! but how do you know where the cluster is without opening the hive up and I thought that would be a realy bad idea when it is COLD?
X-Ray :-D
I use a stethoscope, works great for locating cluster w/ no interference and you can get a general sense on how they're doing by what they sound like. Its a widely available tool no northerner beek should be w/out.
thomas
Quote from: T Beek on December 03, 2010, 11:39:12 AM
I use a stethoscope, works great for locating cluster w/ no interference and you can get a general sense on how they're doing by what they sound like. Its a widely available tool no northerner beek should be w/out.
thomas
An infrared thermometer would work as well, though it would not be able to listen.
Quote from: rgy on December 03, 2010, 09:29:20 AM
stupid question!!
What's a 'Stupid Question'?
Quote from: rgy on December 03, 2010, 09:29:20 AMbut how do you know where the cluster is without opening the hive up and I thought that would be a really bad idea when it is COLD?
The whole world doesn't live in a Michigan freezer. We typically have the occasional 50 & 60 degree day here throughout Winter when the bees fly. We can go into the hives and check supplies and population levels. We even get to see when the queen starts laying again if the weathers right.
Posted by: Hemlock
Insert Quote
REALLY!? If your going to be insulting I'd rather you didn't respond.
rgy,
T Beek & I handled that way up top. What's your Point?
a point about these forums proven again. later........
thomas
Quote from: rgy on December 03, 2010, 09:29:20 AM
stupid question!! but how do you know where the cluster is without opening the hive up and I thought that would be a realy bad idea when it is COLD?
When I trickle them with oxalic acid I look where they are. Yes, I take the inner cover off.
But during winter, I do not touch hives at all except when trickling. Reason is that I know that they are OK.
Alright, alright. I don't know what it is about this post but it isn't working out so well. Thanks to all who replied. I got some good info that will help.
T Beek, sorry if I discouraged you. This forum is a great place for your info. Please don't be a stranger here.
rgy, I don't know! If you want to keep going just PM me.
If you have a plastic or a plexiglas board/ under the top cover you can take a quick peek to see where the winter cluster is .
mvh edward :-P
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I look only how winter food has been handled.
After winter I weigh with hand if the hive is heavy or light. If it is light, I remove tha cover and look, is there capped food in upper parts of frames. If there are, I wait for better weather to give more food.
This thread should be joined with "what outside temp is OK....."thread
thomas
HMM, seems to me I read that the bees will typically end up toward the south east corner by end of winter as they slowly move toward the suns heat.
Last winter was my first winter with bees. By using an observation window on cold winter days I could see the bees clustering directly under the bottom of the top bars. When the days got colder I put a 2 watt bulb inside a Styrofoam box (with no top) and fastened the Styrofoam box under the solid bottom board of my topbar hives. When the light bulb was on, the bees would be clustered near the bottom of the wax comb. If the light was off, they would be clustered at the top.
I know this isn't news to experienced beeks, but it sure convinced me that the bees will seek a warm part of the hive regardless of wither food is available or not. Since there wasn't any honey for food at the bottom of the combs, I only used the light bulb heat source on the coldest nights.
In retrospect, I was probably lucky they didn't get stranded away from a food source. This year, I've decided to let the bees do what they do best and survive on there own (or not ) as the case may be.
I think we must keep in perspective the timing of the bee use of the sun's warmth.
When I start most bees in a new TBH, where they can draw comb wherever they choose, it is usually springtime. Bees naturally go to the warmer side of the box. And I have also seen them stay away from the other side later in the summer as the sun beats on the western side and no doubt gets very hot.
Once established, I think the cluster position is dictated more on reserves that anything else. Bees are smart however when it comes to taking advantage of the hives warmth, whether from outside sources or from within. The bees natural movement upwards benefits early brood production as they used trapped heat in the upper chamber of the hive.
>how do you know where the cluster is without opening the hive up and I thought that would be a realy bad idea when it is COLD?
In the winter you should leave them alone. It doesn't matter where the cluster is... but I am the curious type and have opened them to see what's going with no serious detrimental effects.
Quote from: Michael Bush on December 08, 2010, 04:00:07 AM
In the winter you should leave them alone. It doesn't matter where the cluster is... but I am the curious type and have opened them to see what's going with no serious detrimental effects.
that is the best adwise. If the cluster is here or there. What then? Listening bees only disturbs them. If they are silent, they are dead already.
When you disturb the hive they may be alarmed and they rise the temperature up to 40C.
During winter I'll "listen" to my bees nearly everyday with a stethoscope. I don't think they mind.
thomas
Why not put a web cam in the hive instead ?
Then you wont disturb them :-D
mvh edward :-P