In light that is is winter and the forum is slowing down I thought I would start a thread and see how long it goes. Here is the theme. Any sort of beekeeping WHY? question you may have. You know the many things we have come to just accept because that's the way it is but really don't know WHY.
So I'll start.
9 5/8
7 5/8
6 5/8
The nominal heights of the deep, western and illinois supers.
Okay so far but here's the nominal frame depths.
9 1/8
7 1/4
6 1/4
So, I ask the question WHY?
The deep is completely off the pattern of frame being exactly 3/8" less then box height, even the shallow measurements of 5 3/4 and 5 3/8 correspond to the 3/8" rule.
Bee space.
thomas
I'm guessing that the 9-5/8 is probably an old measurement of a standard 10" cut board after drying. 6 inch is never 6 inch, 7 inch is never 7 inch, and so on.
So years ago they took a 10 inch cut pine board, which was slightly smaller after fully drying, and cut it minimizing waste and using the full board that was in hand. Which happened to be a 9-5/8 inch board.
And bee space..... :-D
No, not why the size of the box. The actual size of the box could be anything, and yes I understand beespace. It is the break in the pattern. All the boxes save the deep use a 3/8" difference between the box and the frame. The deep has a full 1/2" difference.
OK, got it, but I'm not sure of an answer, perhaps that deeps were develped with belief they were best for brood, not really sure. Someones got some 150 year old research around here , i"ll bet.
thomas
I'm assuming (and you know what it is said about that) it is because the deep is usually the bottom box sitting on the bottom board and bees in the natural state usually stop the comb somewhere around 3/4" from the floor of the cavity. But then again the standard bottom board has a choice of two depths so I see another why question coming.
But even that assumption is blown out of the water when you consider that way back and for some today the deep was the only sized box used for brood and super.
All of this calcu-pution is making my head hurt! :-D
I think it has something to do with having to put the "P" in
Pneumonia or the "K" in Knife
Just my Thoughts
Tommyt
Shooting from the hip in the dark... :idunno:
I've seen swarm cells hanging off the bottom of a deep frame. Do yo beeks running mediums see the same thing?
If I may be so bold to add to the questions...why is there a 3/4 inch gap between the bottom brood box and the bottom board? If bee space is 3/8, why the extra 3/8 space. I got a SBB from Walter Kelley and had the 3/8 entrance which is pretty cool, but I had to make a much smaller entrance reducer.
VolunteerK9,
Isn't the flip side of a solid BB 3/8", or is it 1/2? I thought the 3/4 side was for summer use.
Quote from: David McLeod on December 16, 2010, 10:28:00 AM
But then again the standard bottom board has a choice of two depths so I see another why question coming.
So if there's 1/2" in the bottom of the deep & another 3/4" in the BB the bees have 1.25" to play with. Yet when the bees make bur comb it's between the upper boxes
not in the BB.
In natural cavities, bees work down from the top. There is always more room at the bottom, under the combs. Maybe to accommodate all the traffic going in and out? Maybe to accommodate trash buildup? Maybe to tempt beekeepers to ask "Why"? :-D
Quote from: Hemlock on December 16, 2010, 10:46:57 AM
Shooting from the hip in the dark... :idunno:
I've seen swarm cells hanging off the bottom of a deep frame. Do yo beeks running mediums see the same thing?
Yes swarm/queen cells are seen on medium frames (particularly if only using mediums< where else?) and really I've seen them throughout.
thomas
Quote from: T Beek on December 16, 2010, 12:15:54 PM
Quote from: Hemlock on December 16, 2010, 10:46:57 AM
Shooting from the hip in the dark... :idunno:
I've seen swarm cells hanging off the bottom of a deep frame. Do yo beeks running mediums see the same thing?
Yes swarm/queen cells are seen on medium frames (particularly if only using mediums< where else?) and really I've seen them throughout.
thomas
So you've seen them hanging off the
bottom of the frame?
In which box?
Have you seen them on the
bottom of a frame in any upper boxes?
Quote from: gardeningfireman on December 16, 2010, 12:15:18 PM
In natural cavities, bees work down from the top. There is always more room at the bottom, under the combs. Maybe to accommodate all the traffic going in and out? Maybe to accommodate trash buildup? Maybe to tempt beekeepers to ask "Why"? :-D
Of course I have removed plenty where combs were touching the sheetrock as in between sheetrock and plywood flooring. Of course most will have a space but this obviously isn't carved in stone.
What's more important to the bees is bee space.
...JP
No, I guess they don't "hang" from bottom but have usually been at the bottom of the frame, with "some" extending below, although I've seen Queencells smack in the middle of a frame as well in the super(s) "they decide" to raise brood.
I try to winter in "at least" 3 mediums and no more than five depending on strength. I'm convinced smaller is better for us Northern Beeks. So I try and sqeeze em/downsize before it gets too cold. JUST MY opinion. Have had one small colony survive in just 2 mediums though. I'm very interested in keeping NUCs just for winter survival.
Anyway, I'll add a shallow or a left over from a cut-down deep using newspaper method, filling with sugar on the weak ones. I think it helps with "dead air" too. Its kinda funny which ones consume compared to those that don't. I gotta keep better records in that regard. Sometimes the colony you think is weak and then feed doesn't consume much and thrives and the oposite has been observed too. There's alot of "don't knows" to beekeeping.
thomas
Hmm...good question....
How about this: for brood , we use 2 deeps or 3 mediums, so to keep that the same,
2 deeps then has 1/2 + 1/2 = 1 inch total space below, above, and between
3 mediums had 3//8 + 3/8 + 3/8 = 1.1, almost the same as 2 deeps
Other than that...probably lost to the depths of time.
the boxes are in acuality-9-9/16-although they use a standard sizing of 1/8s and 1/4s
they also say 2x4 when the true dimension is 3 5/8 x 1 1/2 these are industry standards-
Im sure there is a interesting story about dimensional lumber and milling practices as well as units of measure -
but the boxes are 9-9/16 and the bee space only changes at the bottom board -and as far as i know
walter t kelley is the only supplier that denotes exact dimension-RDY-B
Quote from: gardeningfireman on December 16, 2010, 12:15:18 PM
Maybe to tempt beekeepers to ask "Why"? :-D
Maybe the best answer yet. You know a beek always has that question in the back of his mind when it comes to the ladies. Why do they do what they do.
Quote from: David McLeod on December 17, 2010, 09:39:19 AM
Quote from: gardeningfireman on December 16, 2010, 12:15:18 PM
Maybe to tempt beekeepers to ask "Why"? :-D
Maybe the best answer yet. You know a beek always has that question in the back of his mind when it comes to the ladies. Why do they do what they do.
Yup, and probably the why and wherefore we as beekeepers are constantly striving to reinvent the wheel
The original standard sizes were:
9 5/8
6 5/8
5 3/4
4 3/4
Frames
9 1/4
6 1/4
5 1/2
4 1/2
This leaves 3/8" on the bigger boxes (max beespace) and 1/4" on the smaller boxes (min beespace). But people keep cheating. Most deep boxes are now 9 1/2 or even 9 1/4". Most deep frames are now 9 1/8" or even 9". I think it was a compromise to get close to beespace on the frames while cheating on the boxes to get them to come out of a one by ten.
Mr Bush, that makes perfect sense. Since the deep has shrunk with the shrinking standard dimensions I can see why manufacturers have shrunk the frames. I kind of wondered whether the suppliers were using rough cut full dimension and planing the boards down or if they got their stock in standard widths. I would guess that all but the largest are stuck buying standard width.