I realize This question may well have too many variables to produce an answer. Acknowledging that, and just trying to get a rough idea of what is and is not reasonable or possible:
What is the minimum number of hives (and nucs) a person would need to keep in order to be reasonably self-sustaining...as in not needing to buy in new packages and nucs each year.
In general I am wondering where or if a small scale hobbyist could find a comfort zone. Where they have enough hives to enjoy and learn from but not so many as to become burdensome, and still be able to maintain a steady number on average year in and year out.
I will add some parameters that will hopefully make even rough numbers possible.
The keeper is in the northeast (vt maybe ;))
a big part of the strategy would be based off the idea of multiple overwintered nucs as outlined by folks like Michael Palmer and Kirk Webster. Where some are used to maintain the yard and any extra are sold or given away.
Honey production (for harvest) is a relatively low priority.
the hives will be "no treatment"
I envision this number as something I would have to build up to, and would anticipate several setbacks along the way, especially as a beginner. For this question lets assume the keeper will have some experience by then!
I also realize that it might be necessary to routinely buy in new queens to avoid inbreeding, but that isn't quite clear to me yet.
I realize with a larger number of hives one gets (hopefully) more surplus honey and that that can be sold to pay for new bees and equipment. We are looking to merely meet our household needs, with surplus beyond that used in local barter. Mostly we want to keep bees to experience them. To learn new something new and give the garden and orchard a boost. I really like it when routine inputs (those outside of start-up costs) can be accomplished by time and labor as opposed to continual monetary outlay...especially for something that is a hobby.
So is it possible to accomplish something like this with just a handful of hives, or is the "critical mass" to get over inevitable losses pretty high?
Way too many variables.
Minimum number of hives to survive. 1, if your luck plays out.
I can make it though life with 12 to keep me going. And I have had 50% loss one year. Just 1 hive loss this year.
Minimum number of hives to survive with no treatment? A whole bunch.
Just how much honey do you want and how much work do you want to put in? There is the question. I think you can make it with 2 to 3 hives and keep things going from year to year. I did it that way years ago. (but things just grow on you)
But there are a lot of people out there that do it very differently.
You need to try not to fall below 2 and get used to haveing 4 most of the time and 7 now and again... you have to roll with what happens as far as flows, swarms etc. You can combine in the fall when you want less, or do more splits in the spring when you want more, or less combines in the fall. But that's pretty much what it will take to be mostly self sustaining. Of course if you go into winter with 2 hives, you may come out in spring with 2 hives, 1 hive or no hives. Obviously your odds of not needing packages goes up when you go into winter with 7 hives.
The absolute minimum is 2 !
why ? if something goes wrong with one you can use the other one to rectify the problem . No queen or eggs ? lift over a frame with eggs and the bees will draw a queen cell.
But if you have 8 to 12 you will have a lot more fun with your bees , but you can start slow and build .
contact your local bee club for support
mvh edward :-P
I agree with Michael i think at least 6 that way you can pull some brood or bees from one to help another
And the answer is.....a few more than however many you currently have at any given moment!!
Oh wait...that is what is the minimum you NEED, not how many to be self-sustaining. :-D
"""the hives will be "no treatment""""
300 new hives annually for 10 years should leave you with 6 that will be self-sustaining, until you buy new queens and lose the resistance you have built in the genetics.
Now, if you are a new beek, start with 2 to 5 hives the first year, replace the ones lost over winter the second year, then you will have an idea of how many you need to maintain in your area and with the time you have to give them. Check them regularly, and treat as non toxically as feasible, but no treatment at all will result in dead hives.
i agree with iddee. if you are buying packages and trying to go with no treatment, you will probably be disappointed. occasionally a package will live a couple of years without treatment, but in my experience, not more than that. buy bees and learn on them. while you are at it, learn to capture swarms and if you have time, learn to do cutouts.
if you can get your hands on bees that are truly survivor stock and can keep requeening out of those, your odds of successful treatment free beekeeping go up considerably.
i find the fewer than 10 hives makes for a hobby. more is work.
Thanks all,
This is helpful and I appreciate folks willing to work with such an open ended question. For the most part your replies encourage me that the long term goal I have in mind now is not completely unrealistic. Who knows what my goals will be after five years of experience but I like to start with a frame work. I have a number of projects running all the time and need to be careful of overcommiting myself. But bees have been of great interest for several years now so...
Michael,
You seemed to get the heart of my question and the numbers you put out there were what I was hoping to hear....if I could keep it in that range that would be fantastic
AllenF,
I am not that lucky! I know one isn't going to cut it. I don't mind a fair bit of work...it's often the best way to learn something and learning is a huge part of my intent. But I do want to keep this small it's a busy world up here during our short growing season. I am not looking to get all that much honey, meeting our own needs would be great. Wax is almost more valuable to me. We sugar here each spring so we get most of our sweet that way and could barter the surplus for honey if that was all we wanted.
Edward and dave,
I get the need to share resources. two hives would be near ideal for me, but it seems like going into winter with two is just tempting the odds too much toward total loss. I was hoping 4-6 might be possible and several of you imply it might.
Scads,
We always seem to NEED a bit more of everything, thank goodness we can scrape by on less! :-D
KathyP,
Kirk Webster is less than an hour away, and I plan to get bees and queens from him at least initially, so survivor stock genetics should help.
I hope to do swarm captures as well, but I think they are less common up here than other localities. I have never seen one in person and I spend ALOT of time in the woods and field. A coupe of friends have picked them up down in the valley but even that has been uncommon.
Idde,
I know a lot of folks feel no treatment is a doomed approach. Also that there can be a spectrum of intervention. I like hard clear lines in life when I can draw them...I find it helps cut down on the vast gray areas. Right now No treatment (certainly not no care) makes sense to me, it fits with the other choices and beliefs I frame our life around. If it doesn't work out I can walk away or re-evaluate. But I know some folks are doing it successfully in my region. Admittedly most of them are pretty sizable yards.
Lot's (and I mean Lot's) of beeks practice no treatment or minimal teatments (like sugar dusting) and have been successful for years. These pages and its many links are full of success stories form beeks practicing no treatment beekeeping. Packages are harder but it can be done, my oldest colony (five years) began as a package and has never been treated with anything, even powdered sugar, but its a special one 8-).
I'm assuming (hate to do that) your talking about no synthetic chemicals in your hives and not just "no treatment." The phrase "no treatment " itself will bring all kinds of interpretations and opinions from the forum, because it means diferent things to diferent people.
I guess I'd have to agree w/ Michael Bush as his numbers have been my experience. That said, I still buy package bees about every other year though. I've started Fall with as few as one and as many as 7, 7 is better and three is fine. It gives you more to see and experince. Good luck and have fun with your bees.
thomas
I'm agreeing with Michael Bush, with the note that I probably came to the numbers he posted from his site or some advice he gave previously. - I'll be hitting 5-1/2 hives this spring (knock wood). I'm at 4 now and they seem to be doing fine. (Florida 'winter' notwithstanding.)
What is your goal for profit? What products are you planning to sell (Packages, Queens, Nucs, pollen, propolis, wax, honey)? What are you planning to sell them for (what's your Gross Margin & Net Margin)? HUGE questions here if you're serious. Starting out small (at least two hives) to learn the ropes puts less at risk as you figure out what you're going to pursue. Once those main questions are answered you've got your direction set.
I think you need a lot more than just a handful to be able to meet your "Where some are used to maintain the yard and any extra are sold or given away." requirement.
Last time I talked with Michael Palmer I seem to remember something like wintering 500 nucs. I believe in his talks he uses a 50% survival rate (which I admit is high and more of a worst case). And although I would consider Michael a minimal-treatment guy, I wouldn't go as far as "no-treatment".
T beek,
Thanks for the encouragement. I am aware of the various interpretations of "no treatment" and haven't yet decided where/when to draw my personal lines. I don't want this to turn into yet another thread on that. I have read a bunch and will be rereading many of them.
D coates,
I have no interest in this being a profitable venture. What I want is for it not to become a net loss each year. Or for it to become necessary to sell product to generate cash to keep the thing running. If I have surplus nucs or hive product to trade/sell/give away that would be nice but not a goal...more a by product. This is about enabling me to keep bees not make money.
Robo,
you bring up something I was hoping to expand this thread on: The nuc element. I wanted to ask folks who are using them for spring restocking what their ratio of nucs (going into winter) to hives is? Which I guess is shorthand for averaging your winter losses(hives) that need to be replaced and the average winter losses to your nucs.
"Extras" would not be a goal, they would be the leftovers from "good" winters when the margin of loss was less than anticipated.
Obviously a part of this arrangement requires having enough strong hives to create the nucs in the first p[lace.
I read a great article in a back issue Bee Culture(I think) last winter from a friend. I believe it was michael palmer who wrote it but not sure. I need to track that down again, unfortunately I passed the issue along to another interested party. The search function on their site I have had pretty poor luck with.
I should be clear I don't expect total self-sustainabilty...but that would be the goal on average, with the expectation for occasional external input being necessary. I feel pretty sure that to ensure complete self sustainability would require more hives than I want.
Quote from: Robo on January 05, 2011, 01:26:38 PM
I think you need a lot more than just a handful to be able to meet your "Where some are used to maintain the yard and any extra are sold or given away." requirement.
Last time I talked with Michael Palmer I seem to remember something like wintering 500 nucs. I believe in his talks he uses a 50% survival rate (which I admit is high and more of a worst case). And although I would consider Michael a minimal-treatment guy, I wouldn't go as far as "no-treatment".
My "yard" fluctuates between 6 and 10 hives (currently 8), and I have enough to maintain the yard and sell a couple or few extra (nucs). Minimal treatments. I do overwinter a few in single deeps (not really nucs)
Selling the extras is always optional but nice. So as long as I have 1 hive left...well that would be disappointing but sufficient.
I'd consider two hives to be a minimum if you plan to intervene occasionally to keep the mites down, probably 8-10 or more if you don't. As long as you end up with 1 hive in the spring, you can split the rest through. Or have a close friend who is a beekeeper who has more than 1 hive too :-D
As to treating hives...I don't know what you are like, but personally, I'd probably not be a beekeeper if I had all my hives die off more than twice. So I choose to do what is necessary to keep them alive, even if it isn't optimal. And I know several people who've had that happen and don't keep bees anymore.
That being said...I do minimal treatments (thymol based treatment in the fall on some of the hives) and have had great success with 6-10 hives (and few swarms) and haven't had to buy bees (other than queens) in quite a few years.
thanks scads,
this is the exact kind of info I need.
Winfall,
Heck, if your just wanting them to cover costs mine started doing that at 6 hives. I'm up 11 now with 4 double nucs and 2 single nucs. Definitely keep a few nucs as well to supplement winter losses, allow you to breed fresh queens and supplement a hive that swarmed to you don't loose that hives honey production. Once people find out you're a beekeeper and you've honey (make it look professional and gift worthy and you'll get that higher price) you'll be covering costs in no time. I've run out of honey for the past 4 years and have kept increasing hives to keep up with demand. I'm adding a two more hives this year and with last years harvest I may just make it until June. It's getting the word out that's tricky.
I started with four two years ago, and worked up to 15 this past year, and am going for more. The more the merrier. I would like to get most, if not all, of my bees from feral sources, including splitting my existing ferals. Unfortunately, there are not many wild bees around my area these days. The greater number you have, the greater your chances of success, in my opinion. Yes, it requires more work, as Kathy stated, but I find it's cheaper than therapy for me....LOL
I must side with MB on this. In my experience 5-10 hives allows for over 50% loss due to various circumstances, yet leaves the ability to rebuild in 1 season with little problem. A consideration is your forage density, how much competition, or flora does your hives have. Then, it is not uncommon to lose 3 or more hives within a single backyard beeyard during any given winter.
In my area the flora will support about 10 hives, my neighbor down the road has 4 and I have 4 (gave away 6 hives to my brothers) which leaves us a little room for more hives but we are assured more of a harvest keeping the hive total under the limit.
To be realistic, a beekeeper can harvest the necessary amount of honey for him and his family with just one hive, but if he loses that hive he then as nothing but woodware.
If only a single hives remains out of six it is still possible to rebuild to 6 in one season using splits.
Harvest over and above what is needed for the beekeepers family can be saved for the future, sold, or bartered for other things the family might need.
Hope this helps.
Ditto what Brian said.
One thing I like to do...when I get swarms or need to do splits, put them in a single deep. They build up quite fast, by June/July (Michigan) they either need another box or they need to split. So I'll split them into two singles. Making sure those have enough honey over the winter, and that gives me either 2 hive insurance against winter loss, or if losses are minimal, two hives to sell in the spring. Do that with 2 swarms and you have 4 extra hives in the winter, plus you can stack them to save space.
That way I can keep the number of main hives down (space considerations in my backyard!.)
There are different aspect:
1) How many hives to learn the beekeeping that you do not get surprices any more. Hives are indivuals and what suits to one hive suits not to another.
2) You bye extractor and many other expencive stuff: how much production it needs to pay back
3) How many hives and spare nucs it is nice to have that you sleep well if something happens to queen or hives or swarms escapes.
4) Beekeeping is an expencive hobby if you do not get good honey yields. If you have 5 hive yard, best hive may get 120 kg honey and the worst 40 kg and the average is 60 kg with 5 hives. One hive may loose its swarms and you get nothing. It is a fortune, what kind of hives you have when summer begins.