and I'm going into my first season with Langs (After two years, I'm done with top bar hives!). Short of purchasing a few deeps, what suggestions do you have for starting with this situation?
An experienced beek told me to stack up two mediums. Makes sense - but wouldn't this just cause the bees to build comb down from the bottom bars of my medium frames? I don't want to run deeps or get started with them.
I'd be very interested in your ideas. Thanks.
They won't build on the bottom of the frames if you keep the bee space right. 2 boxes with frames in each box. No where to build besides a little burr comb which is like ladders and no problem.
Get 1 deep box for your nuc and keep the rest meds. Can you buy med nucs?
Any aversion to packaged bees? I suppose you could make a simple hive body spacer with some spare wood. I have no idea how you would eventually remove that spacer unless you remove those deep frames once they are well established.
I'm starting this year with all medium equipment. Haven't found any medium nucs so I am getting packages.
Allen,
I can get medium nucs but it stands to reason that if I'm paying the same price, I'd get more for my money by getting deeps.
Dexterjc,
I have no problem with packages but I figured with nucs we'd all hit the ground running and have a faster build up.
A hive body spacer is a good idea. I've got what I call "mini-supers" about 4 inches high that one catalogue calls "baggie feeders". These would work fine.
@Stone,
I have a deep I'm trying to convert it over to mediums, so I know your pain. Let me see if I can dig up some photos of how I dealt with this. It can be done fine, but is a bit of a hassle. You definitely get more bees and brood with a deep nuc than a medium so it makes the decision about what to buy more difficult.
Aren't medium nucs 2 boxes tall? If so they would be close to the same amount of bees as a deep. I'm new so maybe I misunderstood what my friend was telling me.
Quote from: Buzzen on January 20, 2011, 10:19:56 PM
Aren't medium nucs 2 boxes tall? If so they would be close to the same amount of bees as a deep. I'm new so maybe I misunderstood what my friend was telling me.
A 5 frame deep nucs is and same as 8 frames of mediums .
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
You may be able to contact Brushy Mountain Bees they may know someone that sells medium nucs. I know they sell the medium nuc boxes cause i tried to buy one for Buzzbee when i was at thier store in NC. But ya know it's the nature of the beast there isn't an easy way to get away from deeps when buying nucs.
Yeah, hankdog. I'm seeing the reality of it. I'm thinking of just buying a few deep hive bodies and be done with it.
I don't know. I'm still open to suggestions. This is what one extremely knowledgeable local beek wrote to me when I asked him what will happen when I add my medium frames in with the deeps:
Once the medium frames on each side, in both boxes, have been drawn out, the deep frames can be moved to the sides. Additional boxes are added on top. As the deep frames are emptied out, they are pulled and medium frames substituted.
I sort of get it, but I can't totally visualize what he means. How do deep frames get "emptied out"? I'm gonna write to him for more details but can anyone help in the meantime?
If you're talking about buying nuc boxes, most everyone has them actually. Brushy Mt, Western Bee Supply, Rossman, Miller Bee Supply... I think you'll find even if they aren't in the catalog. Plus they are easy enough to cut down.
If you're talking about buying bees, you can buy packages, which is the simplest or you can do a cutout, which is pretty disruptive, or you can put some mediums in the rest of the box with some 2" thick styrofoam cut to fill the gap and when they have brood on the mediums move them and the queen above with an excluder and wait three weeks for the brood to hatch...
@Stone,
Regarding the conversion of deep frames/nucs into medium body hives:
Your local bee keep is giving good advice. You can buy a deep and use that, or you can make up a skinny 3" hive body to fit under your medium. I used a skinny 3" body in my case. Either way works, but I didn't want any more deep stuff hanging around here.
Just go to your lumber store, get some 1x4s, rip them down to 3", butt joint them into a box and set them under a medium. You now have a temporary deep body.
When you get your nuc, put all 5 deep frames into it your deep (or pseudo deep) body. Fill the remaining space with 5 medium frames. Something like MMMDDDDDMM pattern is fine. Leave them be for a week or two to get adjusted to the new hive. Then gradually start intermixing the frames. Like shuffling cards. Something like this might work.
Week 1: MMMDDDDDMM
Week 3: MMDMDDDMDM
Week 4: MDMDMDDMMD
Week 5: DMDMDMDMDM
Week 6: Add second medium body
Week 7: DMMMDMDMMD
I pulled one of your original deeps from position 1, and moved 2 inner ones into 1 and 10
Week 9: DMMMMMMMMD
I pulled two of your original deeps from position 1 and 10 and moved inner ones into 1 and 10
Week 11: MMMMMMMMMM
I pulled the last two of your original deeps from 1 and 10 leaving nothing but mediums.
Any time after this:
Remove each medium frame one and by, cut off any extended comb on the bottom and stick your combed up medium frames in a new medium body. Burn all deep bodies!
By "emptied out" your local bee keep means the brood from a deep will have hatched and the queen has not filled it with new brood, hence it is "empty". The queen typically does not lay new eggs in the outer frames (positions 1 and 10) and hence the shuffling strategy above is to move your original deeps from the middle of the hive to the outer edges gradually. Once brood in frames 1 and 10 hatches, the queen doesn't refill them and they are "empty" and ready to be removed.
You can speed up or slow down this process, it just depends upon how much brood you want to lose in the conversion from deeps to mediums.
I hope this wasn't too confusing. It sounds way more complicated than it is.
Stone, Sorry to hear you're giving up on the TBH. I have those and Langs and like both. Both can be frustrating and each has their pros and cons. Curious, why you are changing?
I'd suggest what may be the path of least resistance for you and the bees. A deep lang hive body with frames will set you back less than $20. Get one, transfer your nuc to it, and use it as your brood box. Then add your mediums on top of it throughout the season, converting to all mediums after overwintering, as the deep would empty as the bees moved up. As a brood box, the deeps are pretty light, if weight is an issue. Would give you more flexibility if you need to transfer another nuc. Could install a center board making it into a double 4-5 frame nuc. I find these double nucs really handy especially if you use a removable centerboard.
Lots of choices, good luck.
Or just cut your deeps down and go with ALL mediums, ala Michael Bush at bushfarms. If you're considering going to mediums his is the best site I know of. Go check it out, you won't be sorry. It works for many beeks just using all mediums. I've currently got bees in a TBH, a few Langs (all mediums) and one Long Hive (designed to fit 36 medium frames). Of all of them I like the Long Hive best, but will keep the others going as they all have something to teach us about managing bees. Don't be to quick to give up your TBH. You'll find there are issues with all types of hives. I didn't become a bee "keeper" until I started using TBH and the Long Hive, but I had Langs first. Good luck.
thomas
Years ago I bought medium nucs from Don at Dixie Bee Supply. I'm not sure if he still sells them or not...
http://www.fatbeeman.com/ (http://www.fatbeeman.com/)
Quote from: BBees on January 21, 2011, 08:09:44 AM
Stone, Sorry to hear you're giving up on the TBH. I have those and Langs and like both. Both can be frustrating and each has their pros and cons. Curious, why you are changing?
I'd suggest what may be the path of least resistance for you and the bees. A deep lang hive body with frames will set you back less than $20. Get one, transfer your nuc to it, and use it as your brood box. Then add your mediums on top of it throughout the season, converting to all mediums after overwintering, as the deep would empty as the bees moved up. As a brood box, the deeps are pretty light, if weight is an issue. Would give you more flexibility if you need to transfer another nuc. Could install a center board making it into a double 4-5 frame nuc. I find these double nucs really handy especially if you use a removable centerboard.
Lots of choices, good luck.
BBees; just "re-read" your post above, now that's some good advise, and it works every time 8-). Thanks.
thomas
BBees,
I'm giving up TBHs because they are difficult to feed, difficult to combine, and don't produce much honey. I've had them for two years and as far as I'm concerned the bees in these are in slow motion. Could be the bees; could be the two crappy years we just went through. But I'm selling all the hives I have save for one or two. (I've got an ad on Trading Post section of the forum with details.) I'm a science teacher and I have visions of getting something started with bees at my school. I'd like to put Langs, TBHs, and Warres side by side so the kids can compare and do research.
I try to use all deep supers. More from the handling point of view. A A full Hive Body gets very heavy if it has to be moved, and now all frames are completely interchangeable. I understand all the other reasoning, but I really want to be able to handle all my equipment as I get older. (s00n)
Quote from: BlueBee on January 21, 2011, 12:40:46 AM
@Stone,
Regarding the conversion of deep frames/nucs into medium body hives:
Your local bee keep is giving good advice. You can buy a deep and use that, or you can make up a skinny 3" hive body to fit under your medium. I used a skinny 3" body in my case. Either way works, but I didn't want any more deep stuff hanging around here.
Just go to your lumber store, get some 1x4s, rip them down to 3", butt joint them into a box and set them under a medium. You now have a temporary deep body.
When you get your nuc, put all 5 deep frames into it your deep (or pseudo deep) body. Fill the remaining space with 5 medium frames. Something like MMMDDDDDMM pattern is fine. Leave them be for a week or two to get adjusted to the new hive. Then gradually start intermixing the frames. Like shuffling cards. Something like this might work.
Week 1: MMMDDDDDMM
Week 3: MMDMDDDMDM
Week 4: MDMDMDDMMD
Week 5: DMDMDMDMDM
Week 6: Add second medium body
Week 7: DMMMDMDMMD
I pulled one of your original deeps from position 1, and moved 2 inner ones into 1 and 10
Week 9: DMMMMMMMMD
I pulled two of your original deeps from position 1 and 10 and moved inner ones into 1 and 10
Week 11: MMMMMMMMMM
I pulled the last two of your original deeps from 1 and 10 leaving nothing but mediums.
Any time after this:
Remove each medium frame one and by, cut off any extended comb on the bottom and stick your combed up medium frames in a new medium body. Burn all deep bodies!
By "emptied out" your local bee keep means the brood from a deep will have hatched and the queen has not filled it with new brood, hence it is "empty". The queen typically does not lay new eggs in the outer frames (positions 1 and 10) and hence the shuffling strategy above is to move your original deeps from the middle of the hive to the outer edges gradually. Once brood in frames 1 and 10 hatches, the queen doesn't refill them and they are "empty" and ready to be removed.
You can speed up or slow down this process, it just depends upon how much brood you want to lose in the conversion from deeps to mediums.
I hope this wasn't too confusing. It sounds way more complicated than it is.
This is to confusing for me
(http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/3846/dscf0193g.jpg)
(http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/7576/dscf0194s.jpg)
(http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/8586/dscf0195e.jpg)
Keep add mediums to the bottom when needed when at is (the nuc) full of honey pull it off
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Blue Bee,
I like your method very much! Looks like you put a lot of thought into this. Thank you!
Jim 134,
Wow, it never occurred to me to just add mediums on the bottom! My problem is that I have to return the nuc boxes so I'm going to end up buying or building my own boxes anyway - which I was trying to avoid.
Whatever the case, about how long will it take for the bees eventually empty out the deep combs above so the deep frames could be removed? This sounds like a Warre type method. What would be the sequence of events?
Correction: I just realized Jim134 had one answer to me question already in his post: About 11 weeks
Quote from: Michael Bush on January 21, 2011, 12:33:41 AM
or you can put some mediums in the rest of the box with some 2" thick styrofoam cut to fill the gap and when they have brood on the mediums move them and the queen above with an excluder and wait three weeks for the brood to hatch...
You guys give a lot to think about!
Michael,
I've been thinking about your suggestion above and the more I think about it, the more it appeals to me. Let me see if I understand it right. Are you saying to put that styrofoam layer right up flush to the bottom of the bottom bars of the mediums? And to let the deep frames between them hang down into the space of the extra empty medium below? Got a photo of what you mean?
some of us are making medium nucs for those who want to use only medium gear !
if i had the idea im sure others in your area have as well. some should be doing medium nucs.
bailey
Sounds logical, Bailey. So if 5 frames make up a deep nuc, how many frames should we expect to make up a medium nuc? - eight like someone previously expressed?
It comes back to what you want a nuc for. Is it for a split? Queen mating? Wintering? Queen bank? An eight frame medium is the exact same volume as a five frame deep, so if that's your goal, an eight frame medium is what you want. But if you want something to mate queens in, I'd go smaller. If you want something to do splits in, I would go bigger as I don't think five frames is really as big as I would like.
Stone,
Thanks for the explanation. There are remedies for each of those ailments, but that should be another topic. Good luck, lots of good advice here.
Quote from: Michael Bush on January 22, 2011, 01:26:00 AM
It comes back to what you want a nuc for.
Michael,
I just want to start some hives. And if I have the opportunity to split them, I will. I don't have enough experience to raise queens.
Of course I'll be asking the nuc sellers these questions myself, but it's nice to know what possible answers to expect beforehand.
1. From your experience, and those of others, will nuc sellers actually provide the 8 frames in a medium super for interested parties?
2. Or will they just adjust their prices downward accordingly for a 5 frame medium? (As was said, this doesn't seem like a lot of bees to start off a colony with.)
for all around effectiveness i went with 5 frame med nucs for myself.
they can be used for swarm traps, splits for making new queens, mating nucs, whatever.
here in louisiana 5 frames of bees brood and honey is more than enough to get a spring honey harvest
if i make them up last of feb first- of march.
others might not like the idea of only 5 med frames but it does work for us here.
bailey
Bailey,
Sound right for La. Up here in Delaware County on the western side of the Catskill Mountains, things don't start rolling until mid to late May - at best. I actually plan on starting them out in suburban NYC - about 150 miles south and at sea level - and then bringing them back up at about that time, so things just might work out. This is a first so we'll see how it plays out. Mediums might work for me in this case.
We don't have "local" NUCs available up here till 4th of July "usually." Its all about location.
thomas
Quote from: Stone on January 22, 2011, 10:25:07 AM
Quote from: Michael Bush on January 22, 2011, 01:26:00 AM
It comes back to what you want a nuc for.
Michael,
I just want to start some hives. And if I have the opportunity to split them, I will. I don't have enough experience to raise queens.
Of course I'll be asking the nuc sellers these questions myself, but it's nice to know what possible answers to expect beforehand.
1. From your experience, and those of others, will nuc sellers actually provide the 8 frames in a medium super for interested parties?
2. Or will they just adjust their prices downward accordingly for a 5 frame medium? (As was said, this doesn't seem like a lot of bees to start off a colony with.)
The cost of 5 deep frames and 5 medium frames in small lots are about and same. From my experience 8 frames medium hives cost more then 5 frame deep nucs
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
I just found out where to get my medium nucs locally. I am a member of the Long Island Beekeepers Club and was able to get locally raised mediums with marked and mated queens- MN hygienic - 4-5 frames for $120. Very reputable supplier. Doesn't sound too bad.
If you have deep nuc boxes but everything else you have is mediums, then put medium frames in the nuc and fill up the extra space under them with lumber cut to the inside box measurements. Then drill a 1 inch entrance hole above that. :-D