my buddy and I bought a couple of hives last year and did some trap outs and cut outs and upped our hive count to seven. We are now down to one. I was adding pollen patties to my very strong hive last week and was also going to put in a feeding frame (syrup trough). My bees had a ton of honey left, so I didn't give them any. I gave the frames to my friend and he put them in his hives. Now his hives are dead.
There were a few bees alive and they were very lethargic. Many of the bees had their heads stuffed down in cells. Is this a moisture issue? Was that a huge no no? Is it the patties or the syrup? I thought I read that giving them pollen patties and syrup in Jan/Feb would cause them to start producing brood? I feel terrible.
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"Many of the bees had their heads stuffed down in cells" means selfdestruction. Older bees suicides themselves for giving a chance to the younger ones. Why? They have not enough honey or they could not reach honey. Unfortunately, this is starvation death.
Sory for bad English,
The bees were starving and froze. Either they ran out of food or the cluster was too small for them to get to the food on the very cold days.
Yeah....but why?
1) Too few bees raised in the fall. (and too few bees in late winter)
2) Disease/mites impacting the bees.
I ask beekeepers all the time with dead out hives with small clusters and lots of honey, "how much brood was raised last fall?" And they simply can not answer that question. they can tell me how much they fed, but not how much brood was being produced.
If the picture presents the best frame of dead bees that could be found, there simply was not enough bees in this hive.
And I agree that there is not enough honey and it looks like starvation. Starvation brought on by too few bees to go get it or move to another area of the hive once the cold set in.
QuoteAnd I agree that there is not enough honey and it looks like starvation. Starvation brought on by too few bees to go get it or move to another area of the hive once the cold set in.
OK so what were his options? Could the hive succeed if something was done? If not what should he have done in the fall.
QuoteI ask beekeepers all the time with dead out hives with small clusters and lots of honey, "how much brood was raised last fall?" And they simply can not answer that question. they can tell me how much they fed, but not how much brood was being produced.
At what point do you tear the hive all apart to inspect for brood in the fall?
We took our supers (2) off in late October. I think most of you would say this was a bad thing. However, the hive was crammed full of bees. We did not inspect the deeps (2) for brood. It is our understanding that the hive will downsize itself by kicking out the drones and the queen will stop laying.
Some people have stated that they don't take honey after August or September. Fine, what does that mean? What ever your magic date is you are going to take off the supers and winterize the hive then? Or are you going to downsize to two deeps and then at some later date you are going to ripe the hive apart to check for brood. What exactly do you do from the time you stop taking honey until the hive is buttoned up?
Obviously I am more interested in responses from northern beeks but any answer might help others in more southern states.
So...nobody thinks that it is from adding a frame with sugar water? Moisture was most likely not the issue? Did we add it too late to keep them from starving? They were fine a week ago, we add the frame with 1:1 sugar water and they are dead? Too late on the pollen patty?
When do most of you start feeding sugar water/pollen?
Quote from: dp on January 31, 2011, 11:16:06 AM
So...nobody thinks that it is from adding a frame with sugar water? Moisture was most likely not the issue? Did we add it too late to keep them from starving? They were fine a week ago, we add the frame with 1:1 sugar water and they are dead? Too late on the pollen patty?
When do most of you start feeding sugar water/pollen?
I didn't read it that you ever did feed your bees the syrup. You said you were going too. So I think nobody commented on the syrup because it was a non-issue for your bees as read in the opening post..
If I feed syrup, I feed up to about mid-October. Then if they need more weight, I add fondant or sugar. Of course this is for moisture concerns.
A candy board would have saved all those bees.
QuoteMy bees had a ton of honey left, so I didn't give them any.
This is what I don't get, where is it? I don't see a speck of honey in that frame.
dp, doubt it was moisture. even with a ton of honey on, they can starve. it can be to cold for them to get to it if your hive space was to big for the number of bees you have, or they can very quickly go through it i the weather is warm.
we have alternated between very cold and unseasonably warm up here. don't know if your weather has been the same, but if it has been, they probably went through the honey they had. up here, we already have filbert with pollen. lack of pollen shouldn't be an issue with starvation anyway.
sometimes it's more than one thing that does a hive in over winter. the queen is lost. not enough brood going into fall. to much space. not enough food, or changing weather conditions that cause them to use more than they would normally.
yes ace, you have to check your hive before winter. i usually do my last check about a week after i pull the honey and then leave them alone. you need to know that you have a laying queen. good brood. the right amount of space. enough food. this is the point where you can cram them down because the brood you have is about all you are going to get before winter. the hive will not expand in size after this. it will only get smaller.
i started feeding my bees 1:1 last week, Im in northern california and it's been pretty much mid 60's to mid 70's for the past two weeks with the exception of fog and rain the last two days but today its back to being mid 60's today.
From the picture of the frame you posted, I would say starvation.
Quoteyou need to know that you have a laying queen.
If it is October with one hive and you don't have a queen my guess is you are SOL.
BTW Kathy, what date is that for you that you check the hive one week after pulling the supers?
another good reason for having more than one hive. you can combine the two.
the date i last check is one week after whenever i have pulled the last honey. i pull the last honey whenever i get to it. this year was later than most because the flow lasted longer. the early fall weather was also better. it's not a calender thing. it's a "depends" thing. the reason i wait a week (or so) is that they tend to be a little twitchy right after the supers are pulled. ballpark for last check is no later than mid October.
Quoteanother good reason for having more than one hive. you can combine the two.
Regardless of what happens this year I have geared up for two hives next year.
Quotethe reason i wait a week (or so) is that they tend to be a little twitchy right after the supers are pulled.
We didn't witness this because we pulled the frames in the evening and didn't dig into the deeps. I'll try your week waiting period and do that next fall.
Several times people have spoken of flow. How often do you check your supers for flow to measure it?
you don't have to wait. it's something i choose to do. i am putting out we supers to be robbed, etc. it's just easier for me to stay away from them until they are more settled.
i pretty much know what they are getting nectar from. i can keep an eye on it. the weather makes a difference from year to year. i can see how much and how quickly they are bringing stuff in.
I read that your hive had a lot of honey left-but it dose no good if the cluster is small and cant move to the honey because they are stuck in one spot trying to generate heat to stay warm then they run out of honey and starve-so why was the cluster so small that it could not take advantage of the stores avalible-my first response would be MITES and your hive crashed-did you treat for varoa-did your friend treat for varoa-?? RDY-B
dp - I hope to see about 5 frames of capped brood in late September or early October. If they have that much brood, you probably have a queen and enough bees to survive our winters here in the PNW. After the 1st of the year, I add dry sugar on the inner covers to make sure they don't starve, then monitor it about every 2 weeks. By mid to late January I give them 1/4 of a pollen patty (3' x 5" +/-), but as Kathy says they are bringing in lots of pollen now...
Hope that helps.
Mike
Thanks all for the info. Unfortunately, the it costs the bees when new beekeepers are learning. I guess I'll be buying some package bees in the near future to get up and rolling. Has anyone heard that it's going to be slim on getting package bees this year?
Quote from: dp on February 14, 2011, 11:17:43 AM
Has anyone heard that it's going to be slim on getting package bees this year?
I would venture to say that is said every year to keep driving the price of package bees up to the price of nucs.
Order your packages early though-like last month :-D
dp don't wait to order. most places i know around here don't take orders past this month. sometimes they have extras when the bees come in April, but sometimes they don't.