This is my first year beekeeping and I want to do foundationless frames. My question is, do you absolutely have to coat the starter strip, be it a Popsicle(sp?) stick, cardboard, or chamfer strip, with beeswax? As I said, I am a brand new beekeeper, so I do not have access to clean beeswax. Nor do I want to buy the contaminated stuff to coat over it. I assume that they will build without a coating of it b/c they do it in the wild and the reason for the coating is to guide them to where I want them to start building it at. Is my assumption correct?
Thanks,
James
Nope. I didnt and they turned out fine. Bush says it actually weakens the attachment if you use wax.
Ditto.
I used unwaxed coroplast strips.
(http://www.bushkillfarms.com/gallery2/d/660-2/Picture.jpg)(http://www.bushkillfarms.com/gallery2/d/651-2/Picture+012.jpg)
I agree as well...nobody rubs wax on the inside of a tree before the bees move in.
>My question is, do you absolutely have to coat the starter strip, be it a Popsicle(sp?) stick, cardboard, or chamfer strip, with beeswax?
You absolutely do not and I absolutely recommend you don't. The bees will attach to your wax and your wax won't be as well attached as what the bees would have done, making it weaker. Plus I recommend being lazy...
> As I said, I am a brand new beekeeper, so I do not have access to clean beeswax. Nor do I want to buy the contaminated stuff to coat over it. I assume that they will build without a coating of it b/c they do it in the wild and the reason for the coating is to guide them to where I want them to start building it at. Is my assumption correct?
There is no reason to coat it. They will not follow it any better coated or uncoated.
i have been known to dump swarms on completely empty frames with no guides when i have been short of time and caught unprepared. most of the time the bees do fine. every once in a while they mess things up. i don't know what your mess tolerance is, but if you are at all concerned about having to fix sideways comb, etc. you might want to consider using one sheet of foundation per box until they have built things out. you can rotate that frame out later if it concerns you.
Wow, I didn't expect that many responses so quick. Thank you all very much.
Robo, I noticed that the bees didn't attach the comb to the sides and bottom. Do you have any problems b/c of that? Do you wire up the frames with wire or fishing line as The Fat Bee Man does to give it better stability?
Michael, Great point. I never thought of it that way. (me not attaching it as well as the bees could do)
KathyP, I am not to concerned with having to manipulate the comb somewhat if it is being built sideways. I am sure i'll be checking on them enough to catch it b4 it becomes to much of a mess.
Thanks again to all of you for your time and responses,
James
Quote from: jmblakeney on February 11, 2011, 05:25:13 PM
Robo, I noticed that the bees didn't attach the comb to the sides and bottom. Do you have any problems b/c of that? Do you wire up the frames with wire or fishing line as The Fat Bee Man does to give it better stability?
That is very common with foundationless. Yes I do wire all my frames. I know there are many on here that will advise against it, but I have yet to have a comb failure on a wired frame. As soon as the draw the comb to the first wire, you no longer have to worry about how you hold the frame. I've tried the fishline, but am not a fan. Many times I return to a yard to find the line hanging out the front of the hive. I also notice that the bees don't seem to want to draw comb around it as easy as they do the wire.
QuoteI used unwaxed coroplast strips.
Why coroplast vs. nothing at all?
Quote from: Acebird on February 11, 2011, 07:29:48 PM
QuoteI used unwaxed coroplast strips.
Why coroplast vs. nothing at all?
Without a guide in the middle of the frame, they will use the edge of the frame for the center of the comb, or worse yet, go diagonally across the frames.
Robo,
Should we take your comments about comb failure and wiring to mean that you have experienced broken combs when you haven't wired, or you just see where it is likely/possible?
If you have had them break before completely drawn (without wires), what size frames? under what conditions?
if nothing else a sheet of foundation as a guide for the first few combs then you wont need anymore foundation if you grow center out.
i didnt use foundation last year and built alot of new comb on starter strips! (from 25 to 60 plus hives at peak)
but it has tricks and limits to it for setting up otherwise cross comb is a possibility and it really does suck!
i have a deep in a hive that is cross combed as hell cause of this.
i like starter strips but learn first! and learn fast!
welcome to a great hobby!
Bailey!
QuoteWithout a guide in the middle of the frame
I have heard that the break out piece of the top bar is enough to create a guide. But then I ask myself if you just removed the break out piece you would be left with an edge so why doesn't that work?
Quote from: Acebird on February 11, 2011, 08:53:11 PM
QuoteWithout a guide in the middle of the frame
I have heard that the break out piece of the top bar is enough to create a guide. But then I ask myself if you just removed the break out piece you would be left with an edge so why doesn't that work?
Because you turn the break out piece 90 degrees so the edge protrudes lower than the frame bottom, otherwise they could just as easily center the comb on the outside edge. Even turning the break out piece doesn't create a guide that is perfectly centered.
I prefer the coroplast because it fits into slotted top bars and a single staples hold it in place. Anything else I have heard of or tried takes more time and isn't as strong.
Quote from: windfall on February 11, 2011, 08:39:35 PM
Robo,
Should we take your comments about comb failure and wiring to mean that you have experienced broken combs when you haven't wired, or you just see where it is likely/possible?
If you have had them break before completely drawn (without wires), what size frames? under what conditions?
Too many times.
With newly drawn comb (soft) that is loaded with brood or honey, if you don't keep the frames perfectly vertical the comb will seek vertical and bend to one side. When you straighten the frame, the comb bends back, and depending upon the amount you have moved the frame and the weight in the comb, that twist back and forth is enough for the comb to break loose. Sort of like bending a wire back and forth to break it.
So without wire, you can't lean them against the hive while you inspect and also hope you don't slip and drop one.
If you are like me and have a habit of rotating the frame around the top bar to view the other side (which seems to be the easiest way to do it) you are guaranteed to have the comb on the ground.
Quoteyou are guaranteed to have the comb on the ground.
but probably only once! :evil:
i don't wire, but robo is right. until the comb is attached on the sides you do have to be careful.
Quote from: kathyp on February 11, 2011, 09:42:58 PM
but probably only once! :evil:
I wish.... After years of flipping along the top bar to see the other side, old habits are tough to break....
Old habits and muscle memory are tough to fight, especially if your mind is drifting to the next task at hand, or something your kids said as you went out the door....
I can certainly see how a bit deflection from plumb could torque the comb off with just one edge attached....and I can imagine what a drag it must be to feel it peel out. A couple strands of wire seem like pretty cheap insurance.
No old habits yet for me in beekeeping so maybe I can learn to be careful from the get go. But I have been on the fence about wiring the frames, and opinion in past threads seems pretty evenly split.
Kathy what size are you running with your foundationless?
Quote from: windfall on February 11, 2011, 10:55:26 PM
But I have been on the fence about wiring the frames, and opinion in past threads seems pretty evenly split.
Those that don't do it choose not to because of the extra work. If you have the time to invest, I would suggest doing it. I have never regretted wiring a frame, I have regretted not wiring.
>f you just removed the break out piece you would be left with an edge so why doesn't that work?
After you turn it 90 degrees and put it back, it creates a protuberance in the CENTER of the frame. If you just break it out you have a protuberance on one side of the frame, NOT in the center.
QuoteIf you just break it out you have a protuberance on one side of the frame, NOT in the center.
Then when you roll the break out piece 90 deg. you must also offset it a little from the other side or it too will be off center right?
Many of the foundationless frames That I have seen pictures of get drawn out to the sides and the bottom but not touching. If you glued a Popsicle stick in the center of the sides and the bottom will the bees attach the comb sooner so you could eliminate the need for the wires?
How long would it take for this to happen?
I have been reading up on that Ace. According to the CIG to Beekeeping they don't fill it out to the edges, no matter what the size. This is for a vibration effect. Like when they do the waggle dance. If the comb isn't attached on three sides, then the waggle can be felt easier than if it is attached. Apparently that is very important due to it being completely dark in the hive. I think they also said that even if you are doing foundation that they will sometimes chew out the edges of it so this vibration can be felt better.
All that is according to what I have read. I don't have any experience or bees yet. Gosh I can't wait.
In my experience they will eventually build the comb out to the side and bottom bars, it just takes them a while. They tend to leave a "bee space" especially at the bottom but will fill the gap soon enough.
Scott
QuoteThey tend to leave a "bee space" especially at the bottom but will fill the gap soon enough.
Could you hazard a guess as to how long this process would take? Any comment as to whether the Popsicle sticks would help shorten the time?
Couldn't say about the extra Popsicle sticks as I've never tried them. The time that it takes to fill in the extra spaces seems to depend on the flow and condition of the hive. I tend to keep my hives strong and crowded as a defense against SHB so I think they fill in the gaps pretty quickly...maybe a month or two.
Scott
>Then when you roll the break out piece 90 deg. you must also offset it a little from the other side or it too will be off center right?
No. It will be dead center. The groove is 1/8". The wedge is 1/8" when you put it back where the groove used to be it will be dead center.
W.T. Kelly sells foundationless frames. Has anybody used them? if so do their guides do the job they are supposed to?
Quote from: Acebird on February 12, 2011, 09:34:36 AM
Many of the foundationless frames That I have seen pictures of get drawn out to the sides and the bottom but not touching. If you glued a Popsicle stick in the center of the sides and the bottom will the bees attach the comb sooner so you could eliminate the need for the wires?
Perhaps, but why waste the effort, wiring is a lot easier.
(http://www.bushkillfarms.com/gallery2/d/221-1/IMG_0280.JPG)
Quote
How long would it take for this to happen?
months, years, never....... All depends on the hive and location. The weather in the south permit bees to build more comb than in the north.
I have some, that never get drawn to the sides or bottom. The one shown in my initial post is about 3 years old. As the comb gets older, there is less and less chance that the bees will add to it.
QuoteThe weather in the south permit bees to build more comb than in the north.
I thought it was dependant on nectar flow. From what I am hearing in the south flow is strong in the spring but dies off early. Or are you speaking of the warmer weather allowing you to feed longer?
That monster frame in the photo appears to have side and bottom guides.
One would have to ask, and I'd be the one, if the bees are not going to attach to the bottom and sides then why have a frame at all? Ha, so you can string the wire supports!
sterling, i use walter kelly foundationless frames and they are ok.some hives draw them out with no problem and some kind of mess it up alittle.you have to keep an eye on them when they are drawing them out. ...schawee