Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

I have been reading  Laurie King's detective novels, starting with "The Beekeeper's Apprentice".  The premise is that Sherlock Holmes in his later years retired to Sussex and became a beekeeper.   The one I'm reading now is "The Language of Bees".   There is a passage supposedly written by Sherlock Holmes claiming that bees like to play...... that they "throw themselves into the air with no purpose but joy"  or something along those lines. 

Play is a sign of intelligence and I might believe that a superorganism like a bee colony might be capable of that level of intelligence.  But individual bees?   What do you think?  Do bees engage in play?

It's time you read my latest post.

http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,31919.0.html (http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,31919.0.html)

Ah, so you believe the bees think too much, huh?   :roll:

So have you ever seen bees engage in non-functional behavior?   I guess washboarding was once considered non-functional, or a least inexplicable. But now it's been explained.   I've seen bees chase each other and I can't find a functional explanation for that.  Ever seen something that looked like play?

Quote from: iddee on March 13, 2011, 07:15:40 PM
It's time you read my latest post.

http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,31919.0.html (http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,31919.0.html)

So which party do you recon the bees might be in?

Washboarding? You mean square dancing, don't you?

Bees work, so they can't be democrats. Maybe independents??

come on iddee you cant mean all democrats i have worked for 30 years  :)

Bees do not play.       .

Quote from: iddee on March 13, 2011, 08:17:14 PM
Bees work, so they can't be democrats. Maybe independents??

65% of a bee's life is spent resting could be a democrat.  Of course on the other hand we take almost everything they make and just leave them enough to get by so i guess that makes beekeepers democrats i think.  oooh nevermind my brain hurts from all this thinking.  heck may as well just go sign up for the democratic party tomorrow.   :evil:

To get back on topic no i don't think so.  While social insects i don't see play as what you observe.  Just don't see a bee's brain doing much more then they are already programed to do.

Dang, now I gotta return that mini swing set to Walmart! You could've warned me sooner!

Scott

Quote from: hankdog1 on March 13, 2011, 10:31:43 PM
To get back on topic no i don't think so.  While social insects i don't see play as what you observe.  Just don't see a bee's brain doing much more then they are already programed to do.

In general I agree with that.  But I know that individual bees have some capacity to learn from experience.   The first time a bee tries to extract nectar from an alfalfa flower, the spring mechanism of the flower snaps shut and traps the bee's proboscis.  After getting stuck a few times, the bee learns to move it's head to one side to avoid the trap.   

Play serves to connect animals in a social bond.  We think of play as frivolous but it actually is socially complex functional behavior.  So maybe washboarding is play after all.  Ok, iddee..... square dancing it is!  :-D

And speaking of politics, bees definitely practice that black art.   Recruiting foragers to a particular patch of flowers has all the characteristics of politics.  And the mechanism for choosing a new hive site for a swarm sure looks like voting behavior.

.

At least bees may play political games

Wikipedia knows:

Have you accustomed  Maya the Bee ?

The original book from 1912 was a fable with a political message, analogously to Jean de La Fontaine's or Ivan Krylov's work. In many ways, the fable lauds German nationalism[citation needed]. Maya represents the ideal citizen, and the beehive represents a well-organized militarist society. It has also elements of nationalism, racism and militarism. Maya gets angry in two instances. First, a grasshopper fails to distinguish between bees and wasps. Maya's vicious verbal attack includes calling the wasps "a useless gang of bandits" [Räubergeschlecht] that have no "home or faith" [Heimat und Glauben]. Second, a fly calls Maya an idiot, which prompts Maya to shout that she's going to teach "respect for bees" and to threaten the fly with her stinger. This is analyzed such that respect is based on the threat of violence. Collectivism is also a theme. Maya's independent opinion and departure from the beehive is seen as reproachable, but it is atoned by her warning of the hornets' attack. This show of loyalty restores her position in the society. In the hornet attack part of the story, the bees' will to defend and the heroic deaths of bee officers is glorified, often in overtly militarist tones.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_the_Bee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_the_Bee)

Quote from: Finski on March 14, 2011, 10:58:48 AM
Maya's vicious verbal attack includes calling the wasps "a useless gang of bandits" [Räubergeschlecht] that have no "home or faith"

She got that one right!

For play, an animal needs free time. Bees do not have this luxury IMO. 

However, if the bees of America were to unionize they might get a five day workweek with weekends free for play! :mrgreen: (that was for you iddee)

The quoted passage reeks of anthropomorphism.

Quote from: Cascadebee on March 14, 2011, 03:55:59 PM
The quoted passage reeks of anthropomorphism.

Anthropomorphism? Well yes, attributing behavior to "joy" is a bit much.  But it's not just humans that play.  Don't squirrels play?  Porpoises and elephants certainly do.  Lemurs and orangutans  spend lots of time in play.  Mice play too.  If it's based on intelligence, then where does a hive rank? 

If it's free time that matters, bees have lots of it.  Foragers don't have much to do at night or when it rains.  About half the hive goes into a "rest" period at night.  And just look at all the indolence when the bees are bearding in late afternoon.   :-D

.
Sometimes hives have played with me.

Especially I remember one big hive. When I handled the hive, they look me silently 15 minutes. When I was halfway it made me run. They ruled the speed and I ruled the direction.

********

I must tell a story about an apple thieve who went into the garden of marathon runner champion.

Guy went to pick apples to the garden and the owner noticed that. The thieve start to run along the main road but the owner followed. The marathon runner kept a proper distance to the thieve and they run a long distance. Finally the thieve collapsed down and cannot move any more. The owner turned towards home and said nothing to the thieve.

.

QuoteBees work, so they can't be democrats. Maybe independents??

Democrats and independents are more intellegent so they don't have to work as hard.  :-P

Play is a form of learning for most animal species.  I would guess that bees play for the same reason.

Quote from: iddee on March 13, 2011, 08:17:14 PM
Washboarding? You mean square dancing, don't you?

Bees work, so they can't be democrats. Maybe independents??

or they would be giving some other bees honey away. LOL

Bees do have spare time, it is most evident when bearding is noticed.

Orientation flights are a form of play and bees do this for days or weeks before they actually begin foraging.  Another form of play is the head to head dance, where bees will face each other and make a series of repetative movements of touching feelers, proboscis's, and head bumps. 

.
Yes, and belly dancing.  It is their favorit

Honey Bee Dance Language (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lhVBNQ-Ik8#)

QuoteAnother form of play is the head to head dance

I thought you where going to say when they bump heads with ME. :-D

There is a passage supposedly written by Sherlock Holmes claiming that bees like to play...... that they "throw themselves into the air with no purpose but joy"

Was he smoking opium and doing lines of coke when he wrote that passage?  I bet he did see the bees playing as they would fly circles around the hive for no reason and land again.  He probably put some opiates in his smoker so the bees could really enjoy their play flights.

Quote from: bee-nuts on March 16, 2011, 03:45:31 AM
I bet he did see the bees playing as they would fly circles around the hive for no reason and land again. 

I find your sig to be quite pertinent.    :-D    The moment a person forms a theory, his imagination sees in every object only the traits which favor that theory

It's easy to see what we are looking for.  But I think the complexity of hive organization raises the possibility that bee behavior at the colony level could be more than meets the eye.

Of course bees play, anyone observing for even short periods would/should notice playful (like) behavior.  

Not to sure about all the political 'assumptions' being thrown around though.  I've known dems, reps, indies and even a few Marxists and fascists who all worked themselves to death while in pursuit of their various causes.  

Working hard has no political monopoly and for someone to state so with such conviction is just inciting an unworthy and meanspirited debate, shows clear signs of immaturity and doesn't belong here on a "beekeeping" forum.

(do you wanna know the "real" reason some beeks (new and old) are turned off by this forum and go elsewhere?)        

"Beekeeping threads that deteriorate into rude political jabs and personal "OPINIONS."

Please save it for your elected officials and/or the COFFEE HOUSE.

thomas

PS; you all know, Holmes was fictional, right?

Quote"Beekeeping threads that deteriorate into rude political jabs and personal "OPINIONS."

Not for nothing Tom, that is a personal opinion.  If you eliminate all personal opinions from a forum you stop it dead.  It will cease to exist.  I will try to keep my political jabs to myself in the future but when someone takes a stab and leave themself wide open it is hard to resist.  I personally don't believe there is any difference between the political parties but I thought my comment was a good comeback.

Look real hard, the bees are telling us they like to play.  Look at that ... ring around the rosy, a pocket full of posies ...

Whether bees play or not, it looks like people can't. At least and keep everybody happy. I guess I'll just have to keep my "serious professor" hat on while I am posting.

Sorry if I upset you.

Quote from: T Beek on March 16, 2011, 10:29:55 AM
PS; you all know, Holmes was fictional, right?

T Beek, In the Laurie King series, the premise is that the Holmes was a real person and that his original  stories were written by Dr. Watson.  Arthur Conan Doyle is portrayed as a shyster book publisher who constantly embarrassed Holmes.  :-D  The new King series was supposedly written by Holmes's wife, Mary Russel about their mutual beekeeping and detective adventures.   Laurie King claims to be only the editor who received all the manuscripts for the 11 book series in a old trunk.   :-D   If you want some interesting reading (you probably won't have time till next winter)  I can suggest these books.  The beekeeping lore covers many observable bee behaviors but the explanations are from the 1920s.

FRAMEshift; I am intrigued by your discription and will seek out these books.  But you are right, with more sunlight I do much less reading (and writing ;).  Thanks :)

thomas

My sig is absolute truth and applies to all who read it.  You may see it demonstrated on this forum daily.  I catch myself stuck on the bias train track often enough.  I often dont see things for what they are because I believe what I already believe to be true which is only a theory I convinced myself as fact.  If anyone here thinks this does not apply to you then you are permanently stuck on a one way train to stupid.

.

Brigham Young with a Bee Beard!!  I want to frame it.

Quote from: iddee on March 13, 2011, 08:17:14 PM
Bees work, so they can't be democrats. Maybe independents??

This hard-working Democrat says, Hey!!

no offense taken iddee because i know that all republicians are not bad people just misguided :-D

I guess since bees have the smarts of squirrels, elephants, and dolphins i'm sure they are capable of play.   :-D
Bees spend most of thier life at rest.  So busy as a bee isn't really something you want to say to someone who is working hard.  lol

Great post!  I love the Sherlock reference....I need to read that one!  And....thanks to Finski for his posts!  LOVE the video & the picture & so did my son! 

BTW ~ his science project worked out great & was a big hit!  He even won a ribbon so was very happy! 
FG :)

ps~ I'm an independent & a hard worker...just one of the "girls!"

Quote from: Finski
Sometimes hives have played with me.

Me too. I've seen pictures of beeks working their colonies wearing shorts, so I've tried it a couple times on hot days. Same result: the bees play a game called "Make the beekeeper dance". They head straight for the back of my legs, behind my knees. I swear I can hear them laughing as I run away.