So I have two hives I started in April and my father has two as well. My dad started one with me and acquired another that had already made it through it's first winter. So the back story to this is that the hive my dad just recently acquired was queenless and may have been for quite some time. So being the good son I am I took one frame of eggs from both of my hives and drove them 65 miles to his house. (his first hive he had started with me was very slow at building up so we didn't want to risk weakening them anymore.) that was three weeks ago. So this last Friday I thoroughly inspected my two hives for the first time in almost 3 weeks. To my surprise my weaker of the two hives which wasn't drawing there second brood box out appears to have swarmed. Now I say that because the population looks significantly less that it had. I noticed the new queen which had not started laying yet on the first frame I checked. She was very active but much smaller that her mother had been ( I am guessing partly because she had not begun laying.). The most peculiar thing is that instead of typical swarm cells at the bottom of the frame these where huge cells right smack dab in the middle of the frame. So reduction in population made me think swarm but where the cells were makes me think more than likely a supersedure. Is it possible that because it was such a nice day, and with no eggs to nurse, that a lot of the population was foraging?
So that happend on Friday. Then my wife, daughter and I went to visit my parents this weekend so they could see there granddaughter. Today, Sunday, we went into my dads first hive ( the one we started at the same time I started my two.). To our surprise there was no queen, no eggs, and the only brood was a bunch of capped almost mature drones. They were laid all over several frames in a shotgun pattern. Not a good sign at all. Unfortunately there did not seem to be any sign of supersedure or swarm in his hive. I did see one small capped queen cell but nothing else. There were also a few drones being aborted on one spot. So thinking about our options we go into his second hive to see if there is a new laying queen and I was very happy to see many frames with eggs in them, so our first egg grafting worked. So we decided to do the same for his other and grafted a frame from that hive into his now queenless hive. What a headache this has all been.
In one way I am kinda proud my two hives have managed to directly save one hive which will hopefully now save another. And my own hive had raised a new queen for itself. It does leave me questioning whether or not my fathers one hive and my two hives which were all started from packages from the same place were stocked with poorly mated queens. It is a bit frustrating to have 2 of three hives supersede (or in the case of my dads hive I am sure it would have if they had had a fertilized egg to supersede with.). When I saw my hive with the problem I thought I must have squished my queen on accident. But now I question whether she was just poorly mated. What does all of this sound like to you?
I have a very similar dilema, one queenless hive after introducing a second, 3 other pkgs just barely surviving, after six weeks..have gone from hopes of some honey production to just trying to get survival..I have been out of the game for some time, but have had pkgs in the past, feed a couple of weeks and start addinfg boxes, never had any problems before,,Thinking poor quality queens????dl
I was hoping for some more feedback... I am a little worried.....
Quote from: Dexterjc on June 06, 2011, 10:44:37 PM
I was hoping for some more feedback... I am a little worried.....
I'm guessing that one reason for your lack of feedback is that you wrote too much. You've got a long narrative. Better to keep it short, and avoid all the commentary. As Joe Friday said, "Just the facts".
In response, it's not unusual for packages to supercede. Yes, it's possible you got some poorly-mated queens, but hard to say for sure what the problem was. Sounds like you handled it well.
Also, there's a possibility because of the drones and the shot gun pattern that your father's second hive had been queenless long enough to develop laying workers. When that happens, the introduction of the frame of brood and eggs from the other hive may not be enough to stop the laying workers, if that's what's happening.
It's a great thing to do, though, because the hormones from the brood may be enough to stop the laying workers and you may get a new queen out of it. It is, however, very difficult to interfere with laying workers once they've been going for a while, which may be the case here.
I just didn't want you to feel like a failure if you went back and the second hive had not made a new queen.
Linda T in Atlanta
Dexter: What it sounds like is a 'series of unfortunate events'. It's rotten luck when multiple things go wrong, but the advantage for you and your dad is that you have multiple resources to draw on.
I agree with the above that nothing that has happened to you so far is all that unusual. Could be a queen issue. With the unpredictable weather all around the country, getting properly mated queens into every package and nuc seems to be a bit problematic. Even the best queen breeders have quality issues from time to time.
It sounds like you and your dad are doing all the correct things, though. Just stick with it and it will smooth out here pretty soon. It will be interesting to see if that small queen cell hatches, or if the bees start building a new queen from the eggs you just put in.
My concern is the health of any queen being developed under the watchful eyes of laying workers. Maybe someone could address a possible strategy for you? I myself have never done a shakeout, for example, so wouldn't want to be your sole source of info on something like that. But I have seen it discussed her under other instances of laying workers, so it may be an option.
Quote from: tillie on June 07, 2011, 08:50:20 AM
the introduction of the frame of brood and eggs from the other hive may not be enough to stop the laying workers, if that's what's happening.
It's a great thing to do, though, because the hormones from the brood may be enough to stop the laying workers and you may get a new queen out of it. It is, however, very difficult to interfere with laying workers once they've been going for a while, which may be the case here.
That's true. If the first frame does not result in queen cells, add a second frame a week later. Wait another week and if you still don't have queen cells, add a third frame of eggs. Eventually the open brood pheromone will suppress the laying workers and you will get a new queen.
Quote from: AliciaH on June 07, 2011, 12:39:45 PM
I myself have never done a shakeout, for example, so wouldn't want to be your sole source of info on something like that. But I have seen it discussed her under other instances of laying workers, so it may be an option.
As long as you have frames of eggs to add, I would not do a shakeout. That's the end of the hive. If all else fails, a shakeout just allows you to rescue workers that would otherwise go down with a dying colony. In terms of the amount of effort and time spent, a shakeout is not very efficient. Much easier to just move frames of eggs into the hive.
QuoteSo this last Friday I thoroughly inspected my two hives for the first time in almost 3 weeks. To my surprise my weaker of the two hives which wasn't drawing there second brood box out appears to have swarmed. Now I say that because the population looks significantly less that it had. I noticed the new queen which had not started laying yet on the first frame I checked. She was very active but much smaller that her mother had been ( I am guessing partly because she had not begun laying.). The most peculiar thing is that instead of typical swarm cells at the bottom of the frame these where huge cells right smack dab in the middle of the frame. So reduction in population made me think swarm but where the cells were makes me think more than likely a supersedure. Is it possible that because it was such a nice day, and with no eggs to nurse, that a lot of the population was foraging?
When a hive swarms rather than building up and complete the drawing out of combs on the frames of the box it was hived in it means the hive was over fed and had become honey bound. Over feeding is the biggest and most common mistake beekeepers make.
Bees swarm when they become too crowded. They become too crowded from either and excess of population or an excess of stores. Honey Bound is crowding by excess of stores, bearding can be an indicator of swarming from excess population.
A honey bound hive will build queen cells wherever they can, not where they want to, because of the limited egg laying area available to the queen.
Also, an inactive or little active queen will slim down to the point of looking like a virgin queen. She retains her size simply by her ability to lay eggs, the more she's able to lay the bigger she gets up to a give point, after which she has reached her maximum production size.
Hey, I am new on here, I live out in Philomath, so practically next door. I am curious what else you have found out and how things are going for you. I got two swarms this year, one is doing great, the other one is surviving. I wouldn't mind a little bit of information about your packages like where you got them and how much you had to pay for them.
I am not an experienced beekeeper but I have read a lot and one thing I read said that a lot of packages supersede because of the lack of brood when they are first hived which leads the bees to thinking that the queen is inadequate even though she might be a good queen.
Dexter,
For what it's worth, I have not had very good success with package queens. I am in my fourth year of beekeeping. The first two years I bought packages (one each year) and both hives went queenless within a few months. It may well have been due to my in experience and ineptness that the queens were lost. Both package hives were lost the first winter even after requeening, late in the season on the first package. I have had much better success with caught swarms and bee removal cutouts. They cost a lot less (time and gas money) and I have had a better build up and survival rate.
I know others have had much better success with package hives because a lot of the experienced people on this forum readily buy packages each season. They would not be so quick to buy packages if they didn't work well for them.
Just offering my perspective from my experience.
That said, It sounds like you have a good sense for what to do and you are doing things right. Hope you get your dad's hive queen right quickly and built up by the season's end.
John
It does sound like you have laying workers. The plan of adding frames of brood weekly sounds good. However it sounds like you have limited resources. The only caution is that you don't deplete the donor hive. In that case you will have two weak hives going into winter. Now you will have to do a combine and only have one hive. Personally I would rather do a shakeout and add one frame than take a chance of depleting a good hive.
People buy packages because they are more readily available than nucs and can be purchased earlier. Also,with packages there is no comb transferred,so less chance of spreading disease.
It seems to be getting more prevalent for packages to supercede the queens by the talks on the forums.There is a push on for packages to be earlier every year which may be leading to some of the poorly mated queens.Nobody wants to wait for a later package date for fears of not getting delivery.
And it may also be that with more and more new keepers that they are being overfed or being given too much space in early spring to keep the brood warm. Which may be another reason for what appears to be a failing queen,when perhaps the environment in the hive is not conducive for the queen to lay.
Just a few random thoughts on other posts in this thread.
Well said.
Another valid reason to prefer a package is if what is available in nucs is not on the size frame or the size cells you want. If you want small cell mediums, for example or you want them in a top bar hive that won't take standard frames, you will be better off with a package.
So what happened to Dexter?