I swear may give it up all together. Went yesterday afternoon to help my buddy out and none of the things I have told him needs to be done have been done. I'm fighting an uphill battle with him and his grandpa over using 9 frames in a 10 frame box. For some reason he is following his grandpa's advice on this with all disregard for bee space in the hive (big mess 2 hives and no queen to be found). No wonder after what kind of mess they had. One is a swarm that was collected saturday of course he isn't feeding. His wife is worried about all this honey she is going to get when half the box on the package he installed hasn't even got 5 frames drawn out yet. His grandpa is telling him he needs to super now without all the foundation drawn out. It's like fighting against people who can't even pick their nose right. I swear these bad habits are going to have to go or I'm gonna have to just walk away. It's very frustrating trying to teach someone who doesn't want to listen or is listening to someone with alot less experience. My last ditch effort is put him into working my stuff and show how it's properly done. If that doesn't work I can bet these bees won't make it through the winter.
I dont have time to mentor but have a old timer friend that does. He sets down the rules before he even get started. He doesnt charge for his help. He tells them that the next time they meet they need to have a suit and a hive tool. Then he gives them home work that they better know the next time. Simple stuff like what does a queen cell look like. Whats the difference between a field bee and a nurse bee. They know going into it that if they dont have time to study for the next test they have failed. It weeds out alot of them and doesn't waste alot of his time. I would walk away from the guy you are dealing with, telling him to let grandpa take over
Sounds like Grandpa has everything under control. I would give him my number and tell him to call if / when they run into problems. I am sure you will be hearing from them next spring if they are still interested in bees.
Mentoring can be a lot of fun, but sometimes the well of patience just doesn't run deep enough, does it? What's hard to remember is that it's not our hive, it's theirs, and they can do what they want.
I'll admit, though, that I won't check in as regularly with the folks that don't study, or don't listen/do what is advised. I know it sounds mercenary, but I don't have the time, and I don't need the frustration. I love bees, and it bothers me to deal with that kind of stuff. But like I said, it's their hive and in the end, the decisions all lie with them. They'll learn, one way or another.
Having said that, will I go when they call because they've finally realized their in trouble? You bet, having taken a deep breath first. Because at that point, they're finally listening.
I work with a lot of disfunctional young men, the very best thing I have found is to make them pay something for the help I give them.
If they have an investment in your advice it completely changes their perception of the value of your help.
Don
One of those things I'm probably gonna walk away from. Turn out another beehaver until winter comes and be done with it. I have no problem teaching someone if they want to learn but if they don't i'm not gonna waste my time. If there is one thing this is teaching me is truely no good deed goes unpunished. Just like I told him to get on here in case he has questions in case i'm not around. That was over a month ago and yet he's still not around. I have to say one thing though if his grandpa knows so much about it why isn't he going down there and reinforcing those bad habits. I may never do this again bad when the first time leaves a bad taste in your mouth. May make him come up and help put together equipment one weekend at least I would feel better about it until he puts my hand holds on the inside of the box. :-D
Don't give up, hankdog! The first mentoring gig may not have gone well (my first didn't either), but somewhere not too far from you is someone that's gonna soak up everything you tell them and won't make a move in the hive without you.
Yes, I know, that has it's own set of problems, too. But you get what I mean.
Tell him to call you if he has questions. And then wait for him to fail.
I don't "mentor", but I have a lot of people that ask for help and have questions.
My attitude is mostly: You're a big boy now. I'll give you advice, and explain why. You can follow it or not. I'll tell you how to fix it when you don't follow it. I'll explain as best as I can why your bees died over the winter. Call me as often as you like, I don't mind talking bees. I'm usually generous with my bees when I can be.
But I'm not going to call you in the fall and remind you when to treat and what to treat for. I'm not going to call you in the spring to tell you to check for swarm cells. I'm not going to call you when it is time to put supers on.
I've had a one drop out, he wasn't willing or able to invest the time in learning what they need to. I've got a few friends that call and ask for advice every year, and I don't mind helping.
When you watch fishing on tv with the pros, it looks so easy. Just go out and start casting lures...right?? There are some people that think beekeeping is the same way...just stick a box of bees in the backyard and wait for those honeyjars to overflow. But my bees do well not because they are so awesome...but because I am!! :-D
Rick
walk away. you can't help people who won't listen or at least try.
Beekeeping is a whole lot different than what we did 30 years ago. Back then we would harvest lots of honey, put the supers back on and leave them on all winter and not check the bees until the next spring. He may remember 9 frames thick with honey, but that is only after the frames are drawn out. He may have just forgotten what is takes for the bees to draw out foundation. Tell them how things are done and let them work it out for themselves.
AllenF your not kidding I remember those days you may have only messed with the bees six times all year. Alas the good old days are gone and it truly is a labor of love now more then anything. I guess it just gets to me to not see the same amount of intrest.
Humans are stubborn, plain and simple. On top of that, most of us think we know everything already. Sometimes the best way to teach people is to let them fail; then they're more receptive to your advice. People typically learn more from their mistakes than their successes.
If this guy is your buddy, then I wouldn't just walk away. Take some beers with you to his bee yard and enjoy the chaos. Try to relax and smile as he goes about learning the hard way.
I know how to solve the problem just get enough bees of my own till I cant afford to take on a charity case of mentoring. :-D Ya wanna learn come and help me with mine lol.
Some people need to learn things for themselves...
hankdog,you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. ...schawee
Schawee no but I can beat him with a hive tool. :evil: Which I won't have to worry about him fighting back since he doesn't have one yet and it's been a month.
and you let him use yours....
what i would have done is show up to help him and when he didn't have a hive tool just shrugged and asked "what are you going to do now?". :evil:
i guess i am lucky i have few folks who are listening and it's a pleasure to work with them. I also answer any and all questions they have but wont go and remind them it is time for this and that. What Alicia said is right: First experience may be bad and you gotta walk away from it before you get discouraged from mentoring, but the awsome one will come next and it is so rewarding to pass along your knowledge and educate someone on this wonderful world/hobby.
Good luck
""What Alicia said is right: First experience may be bad and you gotta walk away from it before you get discouraged from mentoring, but the awsome one will come next and it is so rewarding to pass along your knowledge and educate someone on this wonderful world/hobby.""
Ain't that th' truff....??
I took a 13 y/o and his father to get his first hive and set it up a few years back. He listened well, studied hard, and worked hard. He became the youngest master beekeeper in the NC program's history. His father also became interested in bees when the boy got his, and is now also a master beekeeper. You will find some that do much more than JUST make it all worthwhile.
At least you'll know where you'll be able to buy or get some used equipment in a couple years... I've got a couple buddies that got into it right after I did and they flounder around like fish out of water. I'm not perfect but I can hold my own and I am always trying to learn more. They're both "bee-havers" and both used to call with very basic questions, indicating they've read nothing. I'd answer them and when they'd ask for recommendations I'd help. They'd ignore them, and then complain about losing hives later on. I now answer with, "yep, that can happen" and move on to another subject. For those who'll listen, I'll help as best I can, for those who don't I move on.
Hankdog, what kind of hive tool? I don't think you'll want to kill him.
It's okay I promise to put some electrical tape on it to give it some bounce lol. :-D
Ya know another funny thing I did notice and I was kinda fuming about everything else is the package I helped him install looked really weak. To me it looked like they had gotten into some kind of pestiside. Finally when I have gotten down to a smolder on the subject I remembered he moved the hive without asking me how to do it. Have a feeling that may have been the cause.
Quote from: hankdog1 on June 11, 2011, 02:47:57 PM
I remembered he moved the hive without asking me how to do it. Have a feeling that may have been the cause.
Hankdog
:fishhit:
Hope your have a good time :-D
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Jim it's more like this :deadhorse:
Of course it makes me feel like this :soapbox:
In the end all i see is another beehaver at best. Get the idea the biggest problem is he is scared to death of them.
Quote from: hankdog1 on June 11, 2011, 05:06:53 PM
In the end all i see is another beehaver at best. Get the idea the biggest problem is he is scared to death of them.
:lau: :lau: :lau:
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Mentoring should not be about demanding, expecting full compliance, or any other defined idea.
It is about giving your experience and knowledge unconditionally, and assisting in a far less manner than suggesting "Do it my way, or I'm not going to help". Of course some guy is going to value what his grandfather says. I bet you would expect that same respect when you have grandchildren.
When things go wrong, point out what the mistake was. Yes, it's frustrating knowing others are making a mistake and watching them do it. But it is no different than seeing 10 different folks on a forum all give differing advice to a simple question.
I'd go easy on the guy and realize that he may be far worse off without you. Your there to guide him, not steer the boat. Your there to help him pick up the pieces, not laugh and denigrate.
Of course, it should also be assumed that for every person made out to be an idiot by not following sound advice,....there are probably at least two other beekeepers that probably should never be a mentor to start with. ;)
I agree with you Bjorn, but it's hard not to take it personally sometimes. I'm sure that's something that changes over time. You want them to be successful, especially their first year. Bigger problems will come up as the hive grows and they should at least be having fun at the beginning, not be frustrated.
I'm finding that mentoring is more about reading people than instructing them about their bees. Some do really well with two or three different options and they pick which one they think will work best for them. Then, you have those that you only give one option to because you know they haven't been studying, there's no common terminolgy, and you'll just confuse them anyway.
All you can do is your best and like Bjorn says, think about where they'd be if you weren't there.
I try really hard not to "tell" folks what to do with their hives, but I'm sure I slip on occassion. The only time I know for sure I get uppity is when I hear the words, "....but you TOLD me...."
Uh, uh, don't go there.
Just two your kidding me I've learned I will probably never do this again. Just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Bjorn there is a difference between respecting ones grandparents and jumping off the cliff if they tell you to.
Over the years I've found that the best mentoring comes from what I call hip pocket mentoring. That is, keeping the beginner in your hip pocket while you tend to your and his bees. That way the beginner sees what you're doing, asks questions about it, and not only gets answers but sees it in practice. I'm currently mentoring 5 people, only one is willing to do the hip pocket routine (my younger brother), while the others check in by phone.
You can guess who is the most successful of the 5.
Hankdog, you're not the mentor, Grandpa is, and he's teaching all his bad habits to his grandson. I'd walk away or do the phone mentor, answer the questions and let him figure it out.
Still bums me out, though. I'm the coordinator for the mentoring program in our club. Rubs me the wrong way that mentoring left a bad enough taste in your mouth that you wouldn't want to do it again. Not because you don't want to, because I get that part, but because your mentoree wasn't appreciative of your advice.
But you'll still be here, though, right? I keep trying like the dickens to get the apprentices on here. I know some have checked it out, but they haven't registered. Or maybe they have, they just haven't given a shout out, yet.
used to go through the same thing with the 4H group. if you just walk away from the people who are not going to listen and spend your time with those who will, it's worth it. if you try to help people who either want you to do it for them, or don't want to listen to what you tell them, you are wasting your time and asking for an ulcer :-D
Or you start fostering the desire to start another batch of mead..... :-D
One of the beekeepers I'm mentoring called me in a panic today. Seems bees were into the extra equipment he had stored on a lowboy trailer in his equipment shed. The euipment still had some crystalized honey in the combs from last years deadout.
On arrival I could tell he had a swarm take up residence in his extra euipment, they were coming and going at a leisurely pace verses the hectic free-for-all that robbing entails.
I showed him how to clean the frames of propolis and burr combs as well as reducing the hive from 6 boxes to 2 plus bottom and top. Explained about not jarring hive/frames/bees when working them, the correct way to use a hive tool for various jobs while inspecting a hive, etc. He was the 1st to notice the queen. She was running around like a greyhound at a race track, so I explained he had a secondary swarm with a virgin queen, and a virgin queens actions verses a laying queens actions.
When I left we had consolidated the bees onto the frames they were either occupying or were working (that's why 2 boxes) and had laid out a plan for him to move his hive from the shed to the yard.
Having a student who will listen, ask questions, and do as instructed is the best kind of student. I have 3 such out of the 5 people I'm currently mentoring. The other 2 have a tendency to accept other people's bad advice and then keep the "but so-and-so said....' diatribe going. It does making mentoring a tad bit harder than it needs to be under those circumstances.