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Sad to say so. Basic knowledge is missing. No responsibility what you write. Things have gone worse.
The answers how to help beginners or guys in trouple are invalid. Hokkus poccus tricks are used. No idea about modern control methods.
Sad to say and impossible make any influnce. Blind helps blind.
I do not want chemicals into the hive but varroa is wellcome.
Ah, Finski, it must be frustrating. You've kept bees for decades in an adverse climate, you know what works and what doesn't. Meanwhile Walt is down in Tennessee, he's kept bees for decades and knows what works... and Michael is out in Nebraska, he's kept bees for decades and he know what works... and then there are hundreds of beekeepers with anywhere from two weeks experience to sixty years, all giving conflicting advice.
In the end, we each have to learn how to be a beekeeper, and figure out what works best for us. I believe that anyone who comes to this forum regularly will eventually learn that there are a few experienced voices that are worth listening to. It's simply a matter of learning how to separate the wheat from the chaff.
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Your writing has no value. It is mere sugar dusting.
You may write same words about carrot weeding.
What I have learned about varroa control in this forum is
-do nothing. ( Allah will help you.)
- shake with sugar (tie your camel first)
- use oxalic acid, thymol or formic acid ( bye some 4wr cars, or helicopter)
Finiski,
Once again you have it right. Beekeepers worldwide (Americans particularly) seem determined to destroy the varroa mite. As a result they use all kinds of ill thought out treatments in an effort to eradicate the mites, as well as other paracites.
As a result, here in the USA, we have created the artificial problem of having commercially raised queens superceded at a rate approaching 90% (my estimated based on feedback) when 30 years ago the supercedure of new queen was almost unheard of.
We will continue to have CCD and other problems until the Scientists quit trying to be medical doctors and begin practicing and teaching the practice of beekeeping as allowing the bees to develop a tolerance of the mite and a method of dealing with the mite similar to what the Russian subspecies has done with its brood dearths toward the end of honey flows.
Finiski what do you say we should do about Varroa.
I have listened to Michael bush I have also listened to Don (thefatbeeman) and plain on going to visit with Robert Russell (they produce 80,000 queens a year) this summer if he will have me.
I would love to hear your thoughts too.
But to be honest all I have seen you do is bash others bash America and talk to all new beekeeps like they are retarded I am very well educated as I bet are most new beekeepers. Maybe its the language gap but right now I don't have a clue what it is you believe in as far as how to manage a hive and really don't know if I trust your logic.
I don't want to fight with you, enlighten me tell me what you think and why. I would love to know what you think maybe you are the bee guru I don't know and that is the bottom line.
In Finskis climate there is very little time for spring buildup and even shorter periods of time to gather a honey crop. He does not have the luxury of experimenting with a lot of different treatments.
Most in his area treat with a drizzle of oxalic acid on the bees in the cluster in December.There is no capped brood for the varroa to hide in at that time.All varroa are on the backs of bees and exposed to the oxalic acid,thereby having a very effective kill rate. You lose a few bees, but many more varroa,which may decimate your colony in the winter.
When they start brooding in January and February,they have very few varroa to deal with.Hence a stronger buildup with less brood stress.
It works well for him,and in a lot of Europe,but the US is slow to accept this treatment.(Read that as unapproved). I think oxalic acid use is accepted by most Euro nations and Canada.It is only a few cents per colony,which may explain why it may remain "unapproved" here.
I cannot understand how patriotism emerged in varroa issue.
I know that varroa research is 10 years after Europe. In Europe there are better varroa tolerant beestock than in Usa.
If we look innovative beekeepers, they are Russians. Even brains cannot limit their creative innovations. They must use their arse too in thinking.
Seriously, don't keep me fool. If things are in USA so fine as Brian says, things would be fine in other countries too.
I know that there are international beekeeping person net, who smuggle queens, send eggs and sperm via post and rear new resistant beestocks.
Researchers and breeders keep positive writings on that they get money to their projects.
Results are far from what they write.
To many beekeepers beekeeping is a tool to keep social contacts. They do not mind what they write. Important is that they make social hype and create their stupid tricks. He is a great beekeeper and a great ego, mut I saw from his hive pictures that system was mere carbage.
.but finally I think that 6 years ago varroa control was wiser in this forum as nowadays. Now varroa advices are mere humbug. Patriotism was too much to me. Varroa is not a political question.
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There are a huge gap between hype writing and official statistics.
.yes I know that USA is great. One American military guy promised to send huligans to handle me on the streets of Helsinki, because I was not afraid to be differend opinion with him.
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Raddon, your varroa knowledge backround is really odd. It suits social hype but not in serious honey busines. And don't underestimate me. There is no languaque barrier in this case. All valuable researheshas been bublished with English language.
You need not listen bare foot doctors if you are able to read original researshes.
My thought? I do not have my own. thre are plenty of researchers who is paid to do that job and they have done it tens of years.
Look google "varroa control nanetti" and you find best information on varroa.
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Our climate is not explanation to varroa treatment in finlad. That is true what buzzbee says that in our climate colonies do not stand varroa stress. Colonies weaken and die out during long winter. Many are colonies are weak and they have not enough time to build up to productive hives.
We have a skillfull varroa group member Seppo Korpela. He worked in EU Varroa Group 10 years and he moved the information to our coutry. And they gove theirs results what are best and most practical methods to treat varroa. Other bembers were for exaple from German and Italy, and these countries use same systems in varroa treatment.
Now USA repeats the same researches which have done in Europe Group since 1996.
Italian professor Nanetti is a key person in varroa research. You see his links everywhere.
Beemaster's great gurus are not mentioned in those catalogues. That is a difference.
Finski, here in Quebec (Canada), we use formic acid.
We call it the "flash" treatment:
http://www.apinovar.com/articles/flash.en.html (http://www.apinovar.com/articles/flash.en.html)
That researcher and beekeeper uses oxalic acid in november only to complement the treatment instead of relying on it.
It would be great to have bees that resist to varroa naturally.
I believe bees "would" develop resistance to varroa (not elimination), if beekeepers would stop treating for varroa, which only seems to strengthen the 'mites' resistance. What about the returning ferals?
There are many examples of Beeks raising varroa resistant bees, most that I know of are 'treatment free' beekeepers. There are several on this forum, although engaging a dialogue on the subject certainly has its drawbacks.
There are some Beeks (and non-Beeks) who will always have issues with the methods/means/opinions they've not approved (tried themselves?) of, who could probably use some practice in 'acceptance' rather than a long distance slamming, which has little value to any beekeeper (or anyone).
Not all 'expert' Beeks make good mentors, many seem to have forgotten they were once 'newbeeks' themselves and that the bees are the 'only' experts.
thomas
Quote from: mushmushi on June 29, 2011, 10:54:52 AM
Finski, here in Quebec (Canada), we use formic acid.
We call it the "flash" treatment:
That researcher and beekeeper uses oxalic acid in november only to complement the treatment instead of relying on it.
It would be great to have bees that resist to varroa naturally.
after collecting yield from hives you or us may use thymol or formic acid gasifying . It duty is slow down the mites that winter bees will be healthy. You can use it when day tempereture is over 17C. Fumes do not affect under cappins. That it why treatment is 3 weaks.
Oxalic acid trickling can be used when all brood are away and mites are free to be killed.
It does not help if bees are allready injured in autumn by mite load.
When brooding season is long enough, one treatment is not enough to stay mite number down.
If you are lucky, one treament in a year will be enough but you fortune may turn back to your system. Like it did to me once again.
I have read systems of Canada and they met big losses couple years ago.
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Finski
I hate to see a guy that hasn't ever seen the problem questioned giving out advice drives me nuts when I ask a question and get 5 responses from guy and girls that this is their first year and first hive but darn it they read a book.
I am in my third year and have read tons and listen to every old keeper I could find that will talk. I do think I am a little more versed than most on their third year seeing that I have lost hives to almost every pest know to bees except Varroa you have to keep them living long enough for Varroa to become a issue. I have seen multiple small hive beetle attacks lost swarm after swarm to them then wax moth and last year my queens just couldn't take the heat and would keel over dead for no reason and my idiot bees would never try to requeen. So I was plagued with laying workers and now I have a hive with chalk brood and don't think it will come out unless something changes.
With that said I still don't think I have enough knowledge to answer questions other than to tell people where to find info they want on a subject so they can make their own mind up. Now if you notice I normally only answer removal post or little tid bits of info that anyone could find if they just searched.
Finski also remember that when a new beekeeper ask a question or questions your answer they are most likely just relaying information that was given to them by a older beekeeper or they are quoting one of the beekeepers that I mentioned originally.
Now the acid treatments I think they most likely work I haven't done one so I can't say for sure but from what I have read at the universities here in the US that you say has laugh able research they also say they work. I would most likely use them if I needed to treat. You also need to realize you are not keeping bees in Greenwood, MS one of the hottest hells on earth during the summer. You keep bees in frozen hell so things might work different, in labs temp is a factor in most experiments.
Reason I said you bash America is you seem to bash all the research that comes from here. It seems if the research is not from Europe you don't trust it or you just out right mock the abilities of the scientist or beekeeper. As a new beekeeper I don't have a clue who to trust lets look at you how many hives do you run how many splits do you do a year? I know that Don sells bees and queens and only uses small cell, food grade mineral oi,l and essential oils. I would have to think if he can keep selling bees then he must be doing something right. Michael Bush no treatment at all other than small cell now he doesn't have the growth that the others do but his numbers are growing.
I don't have a problem with treating or chemicals. I think the end game needs to bee no treatment and in your area that may never happen you are just in to much frozen hell for the bees to survive without treatments. If I wanted to give you the hard arse answer from my area it would be maybe if you don't need to keep bees there move to a better climate or get a new bee.
Bottom line I don't care what you do with your hives you use acid it works great I don't have a problem with that its a very good option. Its not the only option and seeing that my brood cycle most likely never stops here I don't know how well it would work here would love to know if anyone has tried it in my climate. I will even ask Russell if I get the chance to talk to him he has enough hive to test it on a few of them, and I will research your guy and read what I can of him.
I still want to know are you a commercial honey producer or pollinator if you even have those in Finland and how many hives do you run.
Oh and the language gap is the fact that you sound like jerk in most of your post I know that the fact you sound like a jerk might just be the language barrier, but you could just be a jerk.
I am telling you this because it turns me off from listening to you and that army guy that wanted to kick your arse as you say might have not been ticked about what you were saying as much as how you were saying it. I know in Europe people act jerks to each other and in the US they do the same but not in all areas of the US. Here where I am from being rude can get the hell beat out of you with the laws stacked against you, we still have fighting word laws on the books here. Meaning if someone is using Deming words or words that would cause a fight they can be considers just like throwing the first punch. In other words you deserved the arse kicking so the guy that did us all the favor and did it gets off free of punishment.
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So. Great country, great tolerances...
Russia is great too
It was said about Russian Lada. ( origin Itallian Fiat) Lada had Bir Cars properties.
- Four driving = draw from all 4 doors.
- big gasolin consumption
- a big turning radius
I love to be jerk .
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Finski, what you say about varroa control makes logical sense to me. Kill the mites when they are not protected in the brood cells. Simple, quick, effective.
However you know we don't always do the most effective thing here. We can be stubborn. So could I ask your opinion of drone cell culling to knock the numbers of mites down to a livable level? I agree with you that killing almost all the mites with acid in November would be more effective, but does drone culling kill enough to be useful?
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It is said that with drone culling you may get off 50% of mites. But in late summer colony does not rear drones. During that time wintering bees are as brood.
Mite douples itself inone month.
If you have 10 mites in Marsh, in September colony will have 700 mites. Then over critical level 1000 mites........1400 ......3000...
It is crital to start from very slow level.
5 in Marsh and then 300 in September. That does not violate wintering bees. But if in next month if brooding continues ....it is 600 and near critical level.
Last summer in August I had a broodless colony. I put there a frame of brood larvae from another hive. Later the brood area was like a mite porriage. However, mites were so much that I lost the colony. A wise act was to give "some chemical" but I trusted on drone method.