I ask this because I believe I have had problems with honey bound or near honey bound hives in the past. I know it is probably diffrent between summer dearths and winter but using 2 deeps what should the frames look like for optimum brood production while still supplying plenty of honey? I.E. all frames in upper deep and 4 frames in lower full of honey or what? I do not spring feed. Once agin, I am sure it will be diffrent between dearths and winter but what are yals thoughts. Oh and one of the books I've read suggests 100lbs of honey minimum for wintering but that seems like far to much for my area. Your thoughts please. Thank's, Brad
Quote from: RangerBrad on July 15, 2011, 09:46:24 AM
Oh and one of the books I've read suggests 100lbs of honey minimum for wintering but that seems like far to much for my area. Your thoughts please. Thank's, Brad
We have overwintered just fine in central NC with 16 lbs of honey plus maybe another 10 pounds at the tops of the brood combs. So 26 pounds total. And you could use less for a nuc. And most of that honey will be used for building brood in early spring. The actual amount they need to survive the winter cold is very small.
When using Lang hive boxes, we overwinter in one deep. When using long hives, we overwinter with 7 or eight frames of bees plus a couple of frames of honey.
Are you saying that 30-35lbs of feed is plenty? How many deep frames is that? I may have been filling them to full of honey as I fed them till both boxs were extremmely heavy. I feed 2x1 syrup in 1 gal pails. If going into fall completely empty how many gal should I give to allow them to have enough till lets say next mid-march when we start to have a flow. Thank's, Brad
Quote from: RangerBrad on July 15, 2011, 09:46:24 AM
I ask this because I believe I have had problems with honey bound or near honey bound hives in the past. I know it is probably diffrent between summer dearths and winter but using 2 deeps what should the frames look like for optimum brood production while still supplying plenty of honey?
At this time of year a normal, established, 10 frame hive should have 2 brood chambers (3-4 if using all medium boxes). Each brood chamber should consist of 7 frames of brood and 3 frames of stores. Frames 1 and 10 are dedicated to stores, frames 2 and 9 are stores on the outside and brood on the inside ( 2 halves make a whole). The remaining six frames should be mainly brood with an arc of honey and pollen above the brood area. If using medium frames it is possible the entire comb surface is used for brood with the stores for feeding the brood kept on the storage frames.
QuoteI.E. all frames in upper deep and 4 frames in lower full of honey or what?
In September or October the hive should transition to consist of 90-95% stores and 5-10% brood. By November there should only be a Eisenhower silver dollar sized brood area on the 3 frames in the center of the cluster. All other combs should contain pollen and, preferrably, capped honey. If burr comb exists or is created after the fall harvest leave it, it is extra storage that could make the difference in the hives survival if severe weather conditions occur.
QuoteI do not spring feed. Once agin, I am sure it will be diffrent between dearths and winter but what are yals thoughts. Oh and one of the books I've read suggests 100lbs of honey minimum for wintering but that seems like far to much for my area. Your thoughts please. Thank's, Brad
I don't spring feed either, unless the bees are inprisoned by bad weather for several weeks in March into April, then feeding could mean the difference of starving or not. Rearing brood can use up the excess winter stores rapidly so an incident of prolonged bad weather can kill a hive if it has already geared up it's brood production.
In the Northern tier states, and New England, 100 lbs of stores would be adequate, the further south one goes the less the requirement. In the Southern Gulf Coast states the winter, if they have one, is short and foraging continues all year long. There 50 lbs of stores is adequate to survive periods of inclement weather. Most of the USA uses about 80 lbs of stores per hive for the winter.
Brian, If 2 deeps are full of honey with the exception of a dollar sized area and a little pollen aren't we talking close to 180lbs of honey? I must not be understanding you correctly. Sorry, Brad
The top deep full and the 2 outside frames on each side filled will take you through until next April. The bees will move up in the top deep so it often helps to have the center frames with some open cells for clustering. You can overwinter with only a medium for a food chamber but I prefef 2 deeps or a deep and 2 mediums. You want the colony to come out of winter strong, not just to survive.
In terms of survival, it's better to have a constantly cold winter and then a constantly warm spring.
If the winter temps get warm, the bees are active and use more stores for brood and general flying around. But there's no forage to bring in, so it's a waste of energy. They use less stores if they stay in cluster.
If the spring has sudden bouts of cold, the bees can get trapped away from the stores. I think that kills more bees than just running low on stores.
In the mid-South, 30 pounds of honey is adequate for a single deep. If you have more bees, you will need more honey. But the position of the stores is also important because the bees have to get to it. In addition to frames of honey, we put dry sugar on top of the frames so the bees can always go up to find food (this is in a long hive).
Quote from: RangerBrad on July 16, 2011, 11:27:06 AM
Brian, If 2 deeps are full of honey with the exception of a dollar sized area and a little pollen aren't we talking close to 180lbs of honey? I must not be understanding you correctly. Sorry, Brad
A deep filled with honey and bees weighs about 90 lbs, so the entire hive, everything included will weigh 180 lbs, about half of that will actually be stores, the rest is wood, wax, and bees.
Another Question for Brian,
So basically, we try all spring and summer to keep the hive from becoming honey and pollen bound and then in Sept/Oct. we do the exact opposite? I have obviously been depriving my bees, but that will change this year!
So, what were saying is 12-14 frames of honey in the fall/winter, 10 on top deep and 1-2 on each side of outside of bottom deep and remainder (6-8) on bottom being brood and pollen.
Then in spring and summer striving for 8 frames of honey (frames 1,2,9 and 10 of both upper and lower deeps) leaving 12 (6 in upper deep and 6 in lower deep) frames for brood and pollen Correct? Thank's, Brad
Quote from: RangerBrad on July 17, 2011, 02:38:32 PM
So, what were saying is 12-14 frames of honey in the fall/winter, 10 on top deep and 1-2 on each side of outside of bottom deep and remainder (6-8) on bottom being brood and pollen.
Then in spring and summer striving for 8 frames of honey (frames 1,2,9 and 10 of both upper and lower deeps) leaving 12 (6 in upper deep and 6 in lower deep) frames for brood and pollen Correct? Thank's, Brad
Acrually going into winter there should only be 3 partial frames of brood. But your assessmenmt is correct for Sept-Oct. Then in the spring and summer it should be frames 1 & 10 in both chambers for stores and the rest brood frames for a good production hive. A satisfactory production hive would have frames 1,2 & 9 & 10 for stores and the remainder brood frames..
Quote from: joebrown on July 16, 2011, 11:46:25 PM
Another Question for Brian,
So basically, we try all spring and summer to keep the hive from becoming honey and pollen bound and then in Sept/Oct. we do the exact opposite? I have obviously been depriving my bees, but that will change this year!
Yes, sounds counter intuitive doesn't it. But What is necessary during the foraging seasons of the year, keeping the brood chamber open and producing brood for maximum forage ability and production, is depriving the hive of the necessary stores to survive the winter, so a backfilled brood chamber is necessary for hive survival.
I think I may know how to increase overwintering success now! Thanks Brian!