I would like my hives (when I get them) to be foundationless, I understand I need foundation strips. But I also would like to have small cell. Is this a wise decision should newbies start a hive with small cell wax starter strips? My bees will be package bees(I don't know what kind of bees yet) And how do you know what wax foundation is "small cell"? Most of the descriptions in catalogs just give the dimension of the foundation and not cell size. Do the frames need grooves on bottom and top or no grooves at all? Thanks
the bees will build what they need. don't waste your money on small cell foundation for strips. the need different size cells for different things.
If you want small cell bees, you will need to buy the small cell foundation and use it as full sheets not starter strips. Its a forced regression. Using just SC starter strips, the first few cells will be small, then the cells will be larger and in various sizes. Bees will usually divert back to a smaller cell or natural cell size but it requires more time and constant comb building (as in the keep cutting out older comb and the bees building it over again) If SC is what you are shooting for, then buy the SC foundation. If natural, clean comb is it, then any kind of starter strip will do. I have some of everything in my hives-shooting for a natural cell size with natural comb.
k9 is saying, natural cell and small cell is two different things. They will follow the foundation pattern to a certain extent, but below the starter strip, they will build all natural comb. You can start with starter strips, or just waxed guides, if you want natural comb. If you want small cell, you must use full sheets of foundation. Even then, you have no guarantee they will follow it.
If you want foundationless, it won't matter what size cells are on the foundation that you use for starter strips. You would just be using strips as a guide. They will build what they need and the size they want. Over time, they will regres. My hives are all natural cell, foundationless. They build small cells for brood and larger for drone and honey storage.
Lori--are you using Langstroths? Do you plan to use an extractor for your honey? I'm considering going to Langs next year (or at least adding them along with my topbars) and wonder about extracting on foundationless hives.... Maybe wiring them? Just wondered what you planned...
Quote from: iddee on August 01, 2011, 07:57:33 PM
k9 is saying, natural cell and small cell is two different things. They will follow the foundation pattern to a certain extent, but below the starter strip, they will build all natural comb. You can start with starter strips, or just waxed guides, if you want natural comb. If you want small cell, you must use full sheets of foundation. Even then, you have no guarantee they will follow it.
Ok, I am starting to inderstand now, so much to learn :) I would prefer "natural comb" I will just let the bees do their thing and stick with my plan of foundationless and scrap the cell size. Thanks so much everyone.
Quote from: luvin honey on August 01, 2011, 08:51:59 PM
Lori--are you using Langstroths? Do you plan to use an extractor for your honey? I'm considering going to Langs next year (or at least adding them along with my topbars) and wonder about extracting on foundationless hives.... Maybe wiring them? Just wondered what you planned...
I will be using Langs. I will not have an extractor I will be using the "crush and strain" method. Reason being I don't want to invest in an extractor, I would like to have some cut comb(thats how we used to eat honey when I was growing up) not all of it cut comb but just some. The crush and strain method looks easy enough thanks to a blog I have just read.
I'm not sure if this earth has anything more delicious to offer than fresh honeycomb, with yummy wax to chew on :)
Quote from: luvin honey on August 01, 2011, 08:51:59 PM
Lori--are you using Langstroths? Do you plan to use an extractor for your honey? I'm considering going to Langs next year (or at least adding them along with my topbars) and wonder about extracting on foundationless hives.... Maybe wiring them? Just wondered what you planned...
I extracted several foundationless frames last month and only had one blow out. It was new, fragile comb -wasnt attached very well on the bottom. The rest extracted fine without any wire. If you are careful and do not rush things, it will be ok.
Excellent! Thanks, K9! As per another thread, do you "feed" perfectly drawn-out combs into supers above to set the standard for future frames?
Yup. I place 1-2 foundationless frames down into the brood chambers and bring that many drawn ones up into the box above to bait it up. You will get far better results with nice comb if your foundationless frames are placed between two capped brood frames. And I would highly recommend 10 frames in the brood chamber while doing this (or 8 frames in a 8 frame box).
If you are worried about blowouts when extracting one way I have found to prevent this is to get a plastic excluder and cut it to fit the outside of your extractor frame and tie it with plastic wire ties. The use a little care when you first start turning your extractor handle and you will prevent most of your blowouts.
Quote from: LoriMNnice on August 01, 2011, 09:02:17 PM
Ok, I am starting to inderstand now, so much to learn :) I would prefer "natural comb" I will just let the bees do their thing and stick with my plan of foundationless and scrap the cell size. Thanks so much everyone.
Well, before you decide, think about this. Package bees will have been raised on large cell foundation (5.4 mm). They are NOT natural to start with. They are un-naturally large. And large bees can't build "natural comb". They are physically too large to build natural cells. They will build something around 5.1 mm. So then you will be stuck with lots of 5.1 mm comb which will continue to make large bees. It will be several generations before the bees can make natural cell and even then it will happen only if you throw away the larger comb. That's pretty wasteful of their time and energy.... and your time and energy too. :-D
There are two alternatives that will get you where you want to be faster. You can buy a nuc from someone who uses small cell or foundationless frames. Fatbeeman in Georgia uses small cell foundation and sells nucs but I think you would have to pick them up in Georgia.
For you, an easier way is to start your package on small cell foundation. I would suggest Mann Lake PF 100 frames. They are 4.95 mm cells on plastic frames. It's about the smallest cells that package bees are able to draw out. Don't mix them with foundationless until all the original package bees have died.... at least 2 months. Then, you can start adding foundationless and the bees will be small bees that are able to make truly natural comb. If you want you can gradually remove the PF 100s or just move them out of the brood nest and let the bees use them for storing honey for winter use. Then you will have natural comb bees.
>I would like my hives (when I get them) to be foundationless, I understand I need foundation strips.
You don't need strips, but you need EITHER strips or some other guide. I have tried most everything and prefer a wood guide as it's permanent where the strips fall out and have to be replaced if the wax moths tear it up.
> But I also would like to have small cell. Is this a wise decision should newbies start a hive with small cell wax starter strips?
As others have said the size of the cells on the starter will be pretty much ignored anyway. If you want natural cell then use some kind of guide. If you want actual 4.9mm cells you'll need to regress them and you'll need to use full sheets.
> My bees will be package bees(I don't know what kind of bees yet) And how do you know what wax foundation is "small cell"?
If it is not labeled as 4.9mm then it is not small cell.
> Most of the descriptions in catalogs just give the dimension of the foundation and not cell size.
In which case it is NOT small cell.
> Do the frames need grooves on bottom and top or no grooves at all?
I prefer no grooves on the bottom but only Walter T. Kelley offers those. They also offer foundationless frames that have a beveled top bar.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm (http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm)
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm (http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm)
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm (http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm)
Check out the links Michael Bush provided, there is some good information about going foundationless there. I followed his guides there and my bees have been building beautiful comb all summer. Like Michael mentioned you don't need to spend money on starter strips. If you have wedge top frames, you can simply turn the wedge sideways, or if you have a groove nail in some popsickle sticks. I have done both and they both work well.
Quote from: FRAMEshift on August 01, 2011, 11:58:21 PM
Well, before you decide, think about this. Package bees will have been raised on large cell foundation (5.4 mm). They are NOT natural to start with. They are un-naturally large. And large bees can't build "natural comb". They are physically too large to build natural cells. They will build something around 5.1 mm. So then you will be stuck with lots of 5.1 mm comb which will continue to make large bees.
FRAMEshift: even though the size of the bee would be larger than a natural wild/feral honey bee, wouldn't the comb they build be natural for them?
Even the larger bees will be making "natural comb" even at unnatural sizes(right?)
As a new beek (and I am still one) there seem to be about a million different options and choices that will affect our precious bees Happy choosing :-D
Lee
Quote from: uglyfrozenfish on August 02, 2011, 08:37:34 AM
FRAMEshift: even though the size of the bee would be larger than a natural wild/feral honey bee, wouldn't the comb they build be natural for them?
Even the larger bees will be making "natural comb" even at unnatural sizes(right?)
It's interesting to read the history of Baudoux and the beginnings of large cell foundation. He seems to have been a neo-Lamarckian who believed that bees and their progeny could be altered by changing their environmental conditions. (Giraffes grow long necks because they stretch them to reach leaves high in a tree.) This was before Darwin and people had no idea of selection.... and certainly no idea about DNA.
Strangely, his ideas actually worked (partially) in the case of bees. Large bees can't build the size cells they are genetically programmed to make, so they compromise and build the smallest cells they can. These still un-natural cells allow more brood food and space for developing larvae and this does result in larger than natural bees in the second generation. It takes several generations to get back to the genetic programming. But if you leave the large celled comb in the hive, the new bees will continue to be created in larger than natural sizes.
So if you want comb equivalent to what bees in the wild would build, you need to move away from large cell comb as quickly as possible. If you want 1-stage regression, the best route is pf-100 frames only. After the larger package bees have died (or at least moved on to become foragers and not comb builders) you can add foundationless frames and get natural comb.
Natural comb does not mean small cell. Bees naturally build a variety of cell sizes, but large cell foundation restricts them from building at the smaller end of the natural range for several generations.... unless you force them into small cell for a period of time.
I also read (and re-read) Michael Bush's site and highly recommend it. I had decided to go with wax foundation, but after reading his site I went with foundationless. This is my first season "among the bees". I used one sheet of foundation in each super as a guide and I am using 8 frame mediums for everything.
The comb the bees have drawn has been mostly straight. I've had to adjust a frame once. It is amazing to go into the hive every week and see added comb and how the build it. That alone is worth going foundationless. I am sure there are people who swear by using foundation, or plastic. Either way, I like foundationless and the idea of letting the bees do their thing. Plus it's great fun to watch.
Thanks for all your input everyone it really is helpful. I will be ordering the hive bodies and such very soon, so the sooner I figure out what I want the better, but I also don't want to waste my $ on items I don't need. I do know I am going all mediums, still don't know if they will be 10 frame or 8 frame because either way I don't think I will be able to lift an 8 frame without effort even though it will be lighter just for the fact I am very petite and maybe 100lbs soaking wet so that means I will have to piece it out anyway so maybe I will just go with 10 frame since I will have the extra work anyways. I really want top entrance because of the snow here and I don't want to have to shovel out the entrance(still doing research on top entrance) I am sure I will make mistakes but who doesn't :) Thanks again.
Since your interested in Small Cell when you go to buy your bees I'd recommend just ordering small cell bees and skip all the hassle trying to regress them. Save you a step.
Ladies make great beekeepers, you will do well.
Don
Quote from: LoriMNnice on August 02, 2011, 03:58:25 PM
I do know I am going all mediums, still don't know if they will be 10 frame or 8 frame
If you want mediums, the Mann Lake catalog number is PF-120. http://www.mannlakeltd.com/ProductDetail.asp?idproduct=2123&idCategory=48 (http://www.mannlakeltd.com/ProductDetail.asp?idproduct=2123&idCategory=48)
Yes, if I were going to do Langstroth hives, I would do 8-frame mediums. I use long hives which involve even less heavy lifting.
If you can order packages or nucs composed of natural cell or small cell bees, that would be the way to go. But they are hard to find.
>As a new beek (and I am still one) there seem to be about a million different options and choices that will affect our precious bees
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesoptions.htm (http://www.bushfarms.com/beesoptions.htm)