With temps being as hot as it has been this summer I have heard two diffrent schools of thought on venting hives in the summer. Some say give them all the ventilation you can while others say that the way bees cool their hive to cause openings in the hive is like leaving the doors open while operating the A/C. What say yal? Thank's, Brad
I am using screened bottom boards and screened inner covers (basically the screened migratory cover under the hive top) and the bees seem just fine. They still beard on the front of the hive so my guess it's still pretty hot inside!
The bees want to keep the brood at 94 degrees. If it's hotter than that outside, I don't see how lots of ventillation helps. I do think that ... at least in the South, it's good to have some afternoon shade on the hives.
i have forgotten what heat is like. :-(
i don't see any harm in cracking the top a little in the heat. BUT, be sure that you have protected the hive from being robbed. i gave an upper entrance to the honey supers for a few days, but had to shut that down with the first yellowjackets. most of my hives are old enough to have more than one entrance anyway....
if you choose not to give an opening, they will be fine as long as they have access to water.
My bees are on their own. Last year was my first with bees and everything that I tried to do to help them only made matters worse. When summer hit and the bearding began, I propped open outer covers, tried screened inner covers etc. Each solution created more problems. The screened inner covers were a waste of money-the bees just propolized them over, the propped open lids started a robbing frenzy, and on and on. I let them beard and fan to their hearts content.
Last night was the first time that I have seen my bees bearding. Noticed a couple little black marks on my hive this morning when I let the dog out. Walked down and there were a couple little clumps of bees out on the front of the hive still. Figure that they were just ones that didn't get back into the hive last night.
QuoteThe screened inner covers were a waste of money-the bees just propolized them over,
Even my super propolis making hive hasn't covered the screened top. I think they do it most when light is getting in. Is your top cover propped up? They may make more propolis in that situation.
I did have a problem for a while with them trying to build brace comb from the screened top to the top bars, but after scraping that off a few times they gave that up.
I still learning (a lot), but I think Beekeepers seem to be way more particular than the bees about hives. We chew and discuss details of all sorts, and the bees do what THEY want and need. I have seen swarms take up residency in bird house and all kinds of places.
Having said that, I run SBB and a ventilated top. I have a remote temp sensor in the top and I have seen the temp reach 98 degrees. My hives are in my backyard and when it gets too hot, I create an "afternoon shower" (typical in FLA) by misting the area and many of the bees come out to enjoy the "rain", and the temp falls back down to 94 degrees.
Near me there is a very large hive in a tree that has mushroomed way out along the underside of a large branch. It appears to be doing very well. It is on the east side, but I imagine they do a lot of fanning. It is fourty feet up or I would try to capture them. I am going to speak with the property owner about setting a lure nearby.
Have fun!
RangerBrad I don't know the answer, but I also see arguments for both schools of thought. My concern with the small ventilation crowd is the amount of energy imparted into the hive from the sun via EM waves (IR and visible photons). The amount of solar energy projected onto the earth on a sunny day is on the order of 100 watts per square foot. A hive probably has an incident surface area of over 4 square feet. So that 400 watts of heat energy directed at the hive ON TOP OF THE ambient air temp.
Some of that heat EM energy will be reflected by the white paint, but a large amount of additional heat also make it thru. So the bees have to contend with the ???watts of heat from the sun on a sunny day, 90F+ air temps, and the energy they generate fanning to keep cool. Seems like too much heat to me for the bees to effectively deal with. Hence I tend to fall into the bigger ventilation is better crowd.
The problem is the bees are not an infinite energy source; there is only so much they can do. I've attacked this problem by trying to remove the sun load from the hive in the first place. Then all the bees have to deal with are the ambient temps of 90F+. So I'm using foam insulation to block the EM heat from the sun and have gone back to small vents.
Does not the brood temperature want to be in the mid 90s for proper incubation?
Have fun!
Yep, brood wants to be about 94F. So why ventilate on a 90F day in Florida since that is below 94F?
The problem is there are other heat sources increasing the temperature inside the hive other than just the ambient air temp. There is heat going in from electromagnetic radiation from the Sun on a sunny day (100s of watts) and the bees themselves are making heat by living (a few watts). All of that heat gets trapped inside a wooden box and turns it into an easy bake oven. The bees have to go into AC cooling mode instead of Heater mode.
It's almost always easier to make heat than it is to make cool. Chemical energy can be converted into heat at high efficiency ratios. However cooling is much less efficient and more difficult to do. It's going to be harder work for a bee to cool a hive by 10F than heat it by 10F. Hence it should be easier on the bees if their hives are on the cooler side of 94F, rather than on the hotter side of 94F.
One of those things that always left me confused is the metal on the top cover. I was always told they were put on the top cover to reflect heat. Have you ever burned yourself on one of those things? I notice today hives advertised on the Interwebs are covered with Aluminum sheet.
I have one cover Galvanized. The steel absorbs the heat, transferring that to the wood of the cover, then heats the air space above the inner cover, and that heats and then radiates from the inner cover down into the hive. Trees don't have metal covers.
Bees have to compensate for these extremes in temperature fluctuations, and puts them to work on other projects. The Aluminum is a good start, but for those of us who have the old style covers, I save up my Potato chip bags with the Aluminized plastic, tape them together on the printed side and use that to cover the cover shiny side out.
Aluminum will reflect 90% of light, I think. Mylar can reflect as much as 98%. Aluminum foil works, but is made from an alloy and is fragile. During the day touch your top cover, cover it with the mylar and come back in half an hour. You will be amazed.
Since hot air rises, it's easier for the bees to blow the cool air from underneath. I do have some top vents, mostly from feeder holes in the inner covers. Right now with the temps here hovering in the middle 90's (35 C) I have no problem with top ventilation, SBB's, and the heat reflecting up from the white concrete they have their stand on.
No handy photos of the Mylar Cover-Covers, but here's one of the Camo painted Nuc I covered for most of July. SHB really liked being under that film.
(http://www.captainchicken.com/pictures/mylarnuc.jpg) (http://www.captainchicken.com/pictures/mylarnuc.jpg)
Quote from: CapnChkn on August 03, 2011, 03:23:53 AM
<snip>
No handy photos of the Mylar Cover-Covers, but here's one of the Camo painted Nuc I covered for most of July. SHB really liked being under that film.
(http://www.captainchicken.com/pictures/mylarnuc.jpg) (http://www.captainchicken.com/pictures/mylarnuc.jpg)
Thanks for sharing your experiences, CapnChkn.
By the "film" I'm taking it that you're talking about the potato chip bags?
The SHB liked the area between the mylar and the metal roofing?
Was there an evident increase in SHB after shading the nucs with the wood as seen in your picture or no detectable difference?
Thanks,
Ed
Quote from: BlueBee on August 02, 2011, 01:57:15 PM
RangerBrad I don't know the answer, but I also see arguments for both schools of thought. My concern with the small ventilation crowd is the amount of energy imparted into the hive from the sun via EM waves (IR and visible photons). The amount of solar energy projected onto the earth on a sunny day is on the order of 100 watts per square foot. A hive probably has an incident surface area of over 4 square feet. So that 400 watts of heat energy directed at the hive ON TOP OF THE ambient air temp.
Some of that heat EM energy will be reflected by the white paint, but a large amount of additional heat also make it thru. So the bees have to contend with the ???watts of heat from the sun on a sunny day, 90F+ air temps, and the energy they generate fanning to keep cool. Seems like too much heat to me for the bees to effectively deal with. Hence I tend to fall into the bigger ventilation is better crowd.
The problem is the bees are not an infinite energy source; there is only so much they can do. I've attacked this problem by trying to remove the sun load from the hive in the first place. Then all the bees have to deal with are the ambient temps of 90F+. So I'm using foam insulation to block the EM heat from the sun and have gone back to small vents.
Huh??? You writing a Theseus or what? Would maybe come back down to earth and say this again? lmao
Quote from: BlueBee on August 03, 2011, 02:59:17 AM
Yep, brood wants to be about 94F. So why ventilate on a 90F day in Florida since that is below 94F?
Most afternoons in this part of FLA get hotter than 90° in the summer. I have a remote temp sensor under the top and have seen 98° recently. Also, the brood boxes are on the bottom, and we all know hot air rises.
I have aluminum roof flashing on the top. Not so much for heat (although it never gets hot) more to protect the wood from the rain. I keep the top tipped up in front so the water runs off the back and not onto the landing area.
Have fun!
We went through a period of high 90's here. My hives are already on SBB, so I first propped the telescoping cover, and then went to screened inner covers.
Yesterday, the temps were only 92, and forecast for the high to mid 80's. I pulled all of the screened inners, and dropped the lids. I bought a sheet of 2" polystyrene yesterday...will be putting it on one hive early to see the effects.
QuoteBy the "film" I'm taking it that you're talking about the potato chip bags?
Yepper! Sheet is thicker, Plate thicker yet.
QuoteThe SHB liked the area between the mylar and the metal roofing?
Nope. They don't need to go between the mylar and the roof. They have the outer cover to fuss with. What I'm referring to is the loose cover of mylar I put over the outside of that little nuc. I put them in their hive body, removed the plastic, and watched about a dozen beetles run for "cover." Those were just the ones I saw.
QuoteWas there an evident increase in SHB after shading the nucs with the wood as seen in your picture or no detectable difference?
I suppose you're referring to the painting I covered the whole shebang with. My Mother paints, and throws all the canvases she doesn't want out. SHB aren't really a problem. SHB larvae are. Bee-nuts gave me the vital clue as to why I was having the problems earlier. If they have enough bees to "fill" the hive volume, they can guard it. Generally speaking, that way the housekeepers can find the eggs and discard them before they become the problem.
It's kind of a pain to keep them in a little nuc until they get the numbers up and have workers hatching, but this isn't 1974 anymore. They can't stay in the sun the way you're thinking. BlueBee has already given us the applied physics of the energy converted to heat on a hive, the closer to the equator you are the less atmosphere to filter and reflect the light; the brightness is just a deterrent to the beetle. They seek the dark, moist places to hide and lay eggs. Also to escape harassment from the colony.
The beetles don't just stay away because the hives are in the full sun. They come in and crawl all over them at dusk. I have regular widow screen for my Robber screens, and they would fly in by the butt-load at dusk. So, in my thinking, it's not just one thing or another. It's keeping the hives in a bright place, strong colonies, and not leaving gaps and spaces where they can hide to lay eggs and escape from the colony.
I didn't have any problem with the beetles in the nuc because there were enough bees INSIDE. These pests were outside.
CapnChkn, you are an industrious soul! I never thought of using a potato chip bag as a sun reflector.
An old canvas painting? I know you're in the volunteer state and I know the Vols love orange. Was that orange artwork some sort of Vol painting gone haywire?
So what's your conclusion for the best sun shield? The potato bags, the orange painting, a combination?
LOL! I couldn't tell you what the painting is. I'll go out and photograph what I've done.
Just keep in mind that when it's 114 F outside, the bees still need it 95 F inside. How can they do that if you provide so much ventilation that they can't control the temperature? You can have too much ventilation on a hot day. Maybe not at 95F but anything over that you could.
One of our local beekeeps bought a role of aluminum insulation from Ace Hardware and runs it across the top and down the west side of his hives to reflect the afternoon sun. Of course we have been over 100 degrees for about 40 days now. It was 110 yesterday and no end in sight.
I've always offset my hives when it gets/got real hot in the summer.
First year for me but I went with a different philosophy.
On my ttbh hives I installed 2 in styro insulation above the bars and cut saw cuts in the give body near the top.
I figure if the bees are working on cooling through evaporation, the insulation will help, just like insulating an attic.
If they want ventilation, the have the saw cuts.
So far they have kept the saw cuts propolized shut.
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
Ok, as promised, the photos. As always, click on the image to go to Hi-Rez.
(http://rcba.squareserve.com/pictures/mylarcovercovers500.jpg) (http://rcba.squareserve.com/pictures/mylarcovercovers.jpg)
I've discovered the mylar is letting water underneath, which will hold it on the wood and over the steel. I might just have a design problem, but when it rains, I will need to take them off and let them dry before putting them back on.
(http://rcba.squareserve.com/pictures/mylarcover500.jpg) (http://rcba.squareserve.com/pictures/mylarcover.jpg)
The tape is something I found here on the farm. It's advertised as being able to hold in all kinds of conditions. I wouldn't put it past freezing. Once the adhesive gets hard it's basically useless. Other tape is simply the water resistant duck tape.
(http://rcba.squareserve.com/pictures/inside500.jpg) (http://rcba.squareserve.com/pictures/inside.jpg)
QuoteJust keep in mind that when it's 114 F outside, the bees still need it 95 F inside. How can they do that if you provide so much ventilation that they can't control the temperature? You can have too much ventilation on a hot day. Maybe not at 95F but anything over that you could.
Yessir! As I said, the bees will have an easier time blowing cool air from below. Are you talking about top ventilation? With the screen over the inner cover hole, and the SBB, they were still bearding yesterday. I have mine over concrete, which holds heat as well as reflecting it up.
(http://rcba.squareserve.com/pictures/damnbeetles.jpg)
As you can see, the beetles are just everywhere. This is kind of like ignoring blowflies because they're everywhere, in everything, and what can you do about it? They don't get in between the mylar and outer cover because they have the whole hive to mess with.
(http://rcba.squareserve.com/pictures/insideoutside500.jpg) (http://rcba.squareserve.com/pictures/insideoutside.jpg)
Cheezie product endorsement. Yep, I eat this way. The duck tape goes round the perimeter to give the plastic some extra strength, though if you've tried to open the bag, you already know it will either not tear, or go all at once.
The latest corners are folded under so the only thing showing is a line right at the corner. Later versions may include some heating to weld the plastics together. And now I'll have to sort out how to keep the rain from getting underneath. You can get full sheets of mylar, those emergency blankets come to mind. The main problem with them is they develop pin holes at the folds, and you can pick these bags up on the side of the road.
Beetles in roof? Iwould suspect leaks or condensation. The stains suggest condensation
You can get full sheets of Mylar, those emergency blankets come to mind. The main problem with them is they develop pin holes at the folds, and you can pick these bags up on the side of the road.
[/quote]
I have a great source of Mylar. go to a local TV repair shop and ask if you can get the reflective screen from the projection TVs in the scarp pile. It is perfectly mirror quality and can cover two hive tops. I use it for making parabolic dishes to heat water for my green house and am making one for a souped up solar wax melter.
@derekm: They're not in the roof. They're above the inner cover.
@divemaster1963: Cool! I haven't seen a TV repair shop in about 20 years, but I'll keep that in mind. Word on the solar collector. You don't need to have a great deal of heat. After a certain point, the wax degrades in color and quality.
About 200 ℉ (90 ℃) is all you'll need to make it work.
QuoteI haven't seen a TV repair shop in about 20 years
LOL, no more flyback circuits to fry!
Here are some observations - based on two hives measured by cheap eBay sourced indoor/outdoor thermometers.
In both hives - one of which is a single deep and the other a two-deep plus one medium - one moderately populated (the single) and the other heavily populated I am seeing very consistent readings from 92 to 95 degrees with outside temps ranging between 65 and 100 degrees.
Both probes have been dropped an inch or two down through the hole in the inner cover so that the probe is just below the middle top bars.
For ventilation these hives have -
- No entrance reducer - entry full width X 3/4"
Solid bottom board
Small entry/exit slot in bottom side of inner cover
Ventilator device 19 7/8 X 16 1/4 X 2 made of 3/4" pine (picture a hive body cut into 2" high sections) with two 1" holes front and back - screened in back but not in front so as to provide another top entrance - under the inner cover
Underside of "Telescoping" cover insulated with 1" thickness of styrofoam backed with political lawn sign material
(I forget the name of the stuff) to prevent chewing.
I never get any bearding.
One cool night I noticed a number of bees blocking the holes - to help keep everybody else warm, I guess.
As the temps get cooler, the vent comes off first, then the entrance reducer goes back on.
This link is shot of a vent device with just a single top vent hole front (OK and in back, too).
http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff397/jrhills/Bee%20Shots/IMG_0001.jpg (http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff397/jrhills/Bee%20Shots/IMG_0001.jpg)
The bees need air movement to cool the hive by evaporation and need an exhaust to dump the humid air.
Cooling using solar power bee controlled - chimney cooling. use the chimney effect - it was once used to ventilate mines.
Insulate and make reflective the hive. Erect a metal chimney on the top of hive (say 3ft high and 4" dia) over a 3" diameter hole in the top of the hive that has a mesh that that bee can propolise to regulate the ventilation.
Paint the top 2/3rds of the chimney matt black.
The chimney getting hot when the sunshines on it will cause air in it to rise and draw air in to the hive from below. To stop rain entering the chimney at the top use a sleeve type cowl described below.
This cowl is ta larger tube that is attached to the top of chimney to extend the top but because the larger tube is mounted on the lower smaller tube with a gap the rain (falling at an angle) hits the larger tube runs down the inside of the cowl but down the outside the chimney tube.
Quote from: CapnChkn on August 07, 2011, 12:38:04 PM
@derekm: They're not in the roof. They're above the inner cover.
@divemaster1963: Cool! I haven't seen a TV repair shop in about 20 years, but I'll keep that in mind. Word on the solar collector. You don't need to have a great deal of heat. After a certain point, the wax degrades in color and quality.
About 200 ℉ (90 ℃) is all you'll need to make it work.
yea I am planning to use the wax melter during the winter. I have about 40 feet about 36" wide. comes with a stirofoam frame with it. you could remake the frame to fit over the top cover very easly.
john
I love your photo JRH/Jeff; they look like happy bees.
I like your design. It sounds like you've got a natural chimney effect going. I also like that you've got real data to back up your design.
A couple of questions:
Do your bees attempt to build any comb in that 2" vent box? Any reason for picking 2" vs some other thickness? Do you have a protective coating/wax on your hive body? I'm assuming so since it isn't gray looking from UV exposure.
I have several designs. Some incorporate vent holes on all four sides. Some just have vents front and back. Some are "deeper" than others to accomodate bigger holes. I vary them depending on the temperature.
For more pictures see:
https://picasaweb.google.com/104054520958509617471/August82011?authuser=0&feat=directlink
I never have problems with comb in the vents. Generally the vents are above the inner cover, but when I am feeding out of zip lock bags I often reverse the positions to accomodate the height of the bag. The natural finish on some of the boxes is 2:1 Linseed Oil:Turpentine.
Quote from: JRH on August 08, 2011, 03:14:18 PM
I have several designs. Some incorporate vent holes on all four sides. Some just have vents front and back. Some are "deeper" than others to accomodate bigger holes. I vary them depending on the temperature.
For more pictures see:
https://picasaweb.google.com/104054520958509617471/August82011?authuser=0&feat=directlink
I never have problems with comb in the vents. Generally the vents are above the inner cover, but when I am feeding out of zip lock bags I often reverse the positions to accomodate the height of the bag. The natural finish on some of the boxes is 2:1 Linseed Oil:Turpentine.
The link doesn't work...