I was thinking about how many beekeepers take most or all of the honey in the Fall, and I was wondering how that might affect the thermal environment of the hive.
Even if a beek feeds the heck out of the bees going into winter, the sugar-water stores would have different properties of temperature fluctuation and evaporation. So it seems that would affect the interior environment of the hive through winter in some way, and result in a different environment than if the same cells were filled with honey.
We know that comb acts as insulation to some extent. What do we know about the affect our honey harvest might have on thermal regulation inside the hive - especially during the winter months?
Does anyone have any information that they might share on this subject?
Thanks,
Adam
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It is sure that stores do not act as thermoregulator. I wonder what are you aiming.
The smaller the hive room, the better bees may regulate the hive temp. In large room heat escapes and bees must produce more heat.
Hive heat regulation:
- from workers
- brood makes as much heat as resting worker
- sun
cooling the hive
- ventilation
- insulation/ heat loss especially at night and on rainy days
- nectar water evaporation
- active water foraging to cool the hive
-
Quote from: Adam Foster Collins on August 22, 2011, 12:35:03 AM
I was thinking about how many beekeepers take most or all of the honey in the Fall, and I was wondering how that might affect the thermal environment of the hive.
Honey are taken away and then replaced with cheap sugar.
You should restrict the bee space according to size of the cluster.
Quote from: Adam Foster Collins on August 22, 2011, 12:35:03 AM
I was thinking about how many beekeepers take most or all of the honey in the Fall, and I was wondering how that might affect the thermal environment of the hive.
Even if a beek feeds the heck out of the bees going into winter, the sugar-water stores would have different properties of temperature fluctuation and evaporation. So it seems that would affect the interior environment of the hive through winter in some way, and result in a different environment than if the same cells were filled with honey.
We know that comb acts as insulation to some extent. What do we know about the affect our honey harvest might have on thermal regulation inside the hive - especially during the winter months?
Does anyone have any information that they might share on this subject?
Thanks,
Adam
Depends what you means by theremal regualtion honey or sugar syrup has Thermal mass. The 30Kg that some put could have considerable influence on the temperature if the hives were better insulated. The 30Kg of honey or syrup means the themal mass is 7 times greater than the bees alone. This means the temp will move seven times slowers, but because the hives have only the 1/8th of the insulation of a tree, this heat reservior will get run down in day or two.
Quote from: Adam Foster Collins on August 22, 2011, 12:35:03 AM
Even if a beek feeds the heck out of the bees going into winter, the sugar-water stores would have different properties of temperature fluctuation and evaporation.
There is no reason to think that capped sugar syrup would be different from capped honey in its thermal properties. It's all about mass and heat capacity.
Quote
What do we know about the affect our honey harvest might have on thermal regulation inside the hive - especially during the winter months?
Heat capacity will damp swings in temperature since the mass has to be raised and lowered along with the rest of the hive. But if the hive is ventilated the thermal mass of the stores will not make much difference. The less ventilation you have, the more important the mass becomes, but if you restrict ventilation you will have problems with condensation.
FRAMEshift said "There is no reason to think that capped sugar syrup would be different from capped honey in its thermal properties. It's all about mass and heat capacity."
Sure there is. Sugar syrup varies in consistency 1:1 vs 2:1 etc. I don't know if honey has different qualities of heat retention. I also don't know if the sugar syrup adds water to the air as well through winter, increasing humidity and if it does so more than honey. Bees fed sugar syrup before winter don't usually cap most of that, so it's open to the air. They're different substances, so there's reason to believe that their thermal properties are different. I don't know that they are, which is why I'm asking.
Adam
The thermal mass of a hive is going to act like a low pass filter. It will dampen out quick changes in hive temperatures and it will track the hive temps slowly towards the current outside temp. It will keep the hive from hitting the lowest of the lows and the highest of the highs. It will also phase shift the temps in the hive relative to the outside temps.
If you add insulation, it should result in an even lower pass filter resulting in much less temperature fluctuations within the hive.
As Derekm suggests, in an un-insulated hive, the effect of thermal mass is muted and hence any differences in heat capacities between honey and syrup would probably be of a 2nd order effect.
Quote from: Adam Foster Collins on August 22, 2011, 01:03:24 PM
FRAMEshift said "There is no reason to think that capped sugar syrup would be different from capped honey in its thermal properties. It's all about mass and heat capacity."
Sure there is. Sugar syrup varies in consistency 1:1 vs 2:1 etc. I don't know if honey has different qualities of heat retention. I also don't know if the sugar syrup adds water to the air as well through winter, increasing humidity and if it does so more than honey. Bees fed sugar syrup before winter don't usually cap most of that, so it's open to the air. They're different substances, so there's reason to believe that their thermal properties are different. I don't know that they are, which is why I'm asking.
Adam
That's why I said "capped" sugar syrup would not be different from "capped" honey. If either is not capped, they will contribute to humidity etc. in an unpredictable way. As far as thermal effects, mass is mass but the heat capacity does depend on the material involved. Water is different from sugar, so the concentration of the syrup does matter. But that doesn't mean that feeding sugar syrup is worse than bees bringing in nectar. It would depend on the sugar concentration of the nectar and the extent to which syrup or nectar has been evaporated. There is no way you are going to determine what those concentrations or evaporation levels are.
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Very seldom guys think that bees produce their heat. It does not come from sun or from thermal capacity. Please think.
Hive walls protect the heat to escape.
If you compare to Apis cerana, it prefer to live 90% in open air. 10% are in holes. Apis cerana keeps their 37C temp over the winter.
Mellifera invention was to use wooden cavity. It protect from heat escaping. You may think that a big oak has a big cavity, where is a big bee hive. You understand that honey mass is nothing compared to trunk mass.
When bees keep 37C heat in the cavity, tree trunk absorbs heat with certain speed. If the bees make the hive into stone cavity, it absor bs the heat very quickly.
A wasp make a many fold paper ball which protect brood from heat loss.