Anyone using the long hive with lang frames? How's your experience been? Any words of wisdom?
I'm thinking about building one or two for next year, which would hold deep frames.
Adam
I started with Langs years ago with a commercial business.
Got back into keeping bees 6-7 years ago with top bar hives and LONG Hives, both teaching me to become a better, more observant beek.
I love my Long Hives the best (they're so easy to work with), although I still use Langs, all mediums, which I can switch out frames with the Long Hives. I've since given away the TBH for no real reason other than to 'simplifying' my life by using ONLY mediums, whether in Langs or Long Hives.
When I began I was using DEEP Lang Frames with the bottoms cut off to fit medium sized LONG Hive. The bees would sometimes glue them down to the floor making removal a bit of a pain, but I use a bent bread knife specifically for this purpose w/ good results.
Its the best of both worlds....for me and my bees and I 'plan' on building a few more LONG HIVES each year for the next couple.
LONG Hives of some variety are still widely used around the world and are arguably, the most popular hive in use today.
thomas
I Love my long hives, this is one of my 60 frame DD.
<a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/856/dsc036742.jpg/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/5813/dsc036742.th.jpg" border="0"/></a>
This is a 30 frame two queen hive.
<a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/215/dsc03652g.jpg/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/531/dsc03652g.th.jpg" border="0"/></a>
I use only long hives and love them. They take deep Lang frames (foundationless), 4 feet long, with no bottom, just a screen, elevated on an open stand. 3 migratory tops. Entrance holes drilled in the front can be opened or closed with corks.
Very easy to work, just make sure you never want to move one as they are heavy and awkward when full! And make sure you have good, tight-fitting follower boards. I have never had trouble with crazy comb or burr comb. Can be supered if there is an extra heavy flow or you're going on vacation. Donation of honey or brood between hives is seamless. They winter well, build up FAST, are slightly swarmier than in a Lang (but that's ok, because I love to do splits). Maintenance is easy, because you can keep the broodnest open and add exactly the number of frames needed instead of being limited to multiples of 8 or 10.
Next year I'll be experimenting with two-queen hives in these boxes, with honey deposited in the middle.
I'm confused about the advantage of adding the number of frames you want in a long box, as compared to some 8 or 10 frame box. :idunno: A void is a void, and bees will fill any void once the room is needed. Sticking in 5 frames in a long box, or 5 frames in a standard 10 frame box....is different how? Seems like some fluffy one sided promotion to me. But I'm willing to listen. So please explain.
Anyways, here is some info on our experiences.... http://www.bjornapiaries.com/uniquebeekeeping.html (http://www.bjornapiaries.com/uniquebeekeeping.html)
Quote from: BjornBee on August 29, 2011, 03:01:35 PM
I'm confused about the advantage of adding the number of frames you want in a long box, as compared to some 8 or 10 frame box. :idunno: A void is a void, and bees will fill any void once the room is needed. Sticking in 5 frames in a long box, or 5 frames in a standard 10 frame box....is different how?
If you want to expand the broodnest by 3 frames, you add 3 frames. There is no void if you use a follower board. It also lets you expand the broodnest without dividing it.
From your link:
Trench Style Configuration
The trench style hive, also called
a "long hive", is a hive that models itself after a Top Bar Hive. There are no frames used except the top bar..."
This is the misconception that many people start with when it comes to long hives. A long hive that uses standard Lang frames has the advantages of a top bar without the disadvantages. The fact that you are not stacking boxes on top of each other does not mean you have to adopt top bars with all the adhesion problems and lack of side support for comb.
So what?
I can use a follower board in any hive. I can also add three frames at a time to any hive.
So why is such things being promoted as some advantageous item in regards to a long hive?
The fact that a follower board is needed, since a long hive can hold many more frames in one long box, could be seen as a negative. Not a positive. So instead you add three frames at a time and require a follower board, instead of adding another 8 frame box, is a wash at best.
As for being able to expand the brood chamber without splitting it, is a real stretch at promotion also for a long hive. You don't need to divide the brood chamber by adding another box. the bees will start brood in the next box up or down, when the bees see fit. A long hive does however never take advantage of trapped heat in the upper box for early brood in winter, or allow the bees to travel as they naturally do in an up and down movement. So management (like a TBH) and winter stores add another dimension of care by keeping bees in a long hive.
I love when selected narrow items, even when such items present their own problems, are promoted as advantages.
But that is right....long hives allow you to use a follower board, add three frames at a time, and demand the bees move sideways and not up and down. :roll:
Quote from: BjornBee on August 29, 2011, 03:24:38 PM
So what?
I can use a follower board in any hive. I can also add three frames at a time to any hive.
So why is such things being promoted as some advantageous item in regards to a long hive?
A follower board is not much use in a Langstroth hive since the bees can move vertically. In a long hive, the follower defines the space of the hive. If you add 3 frames to an existing 10 frame Langstroth hive, you will have a 7 frame void, whether you use a follower or not. Well, I guess if you use a follower, you will have a 6 frame void. :-D
Quote from: BjornBee on August 29, 2011, 03:24:38 PM
The fact that a follower board is needed, since a long hive can hold many more frames in one long box, could be seen as a negative. Not a positive. So instead you add three frames at a time and require a follower board, instead of adding another 8 frame box, is a wash at best.
Well, you don't have to use a follower in a long hive if you don't want to. You can just fill the rest of the box with empty frames. The follower is especially useful in winter because the hive is constrained to the minimum necessary size.
The main difference between a Lang and a Long is not top bars or followers. The main differences are:
1. You don't have to lift boxes to get to whatever part of the hive you need to reach.
2. You have a limited space so you can't just stack on supers and walk away for the year. (Well, you could stack supers on a Long Hive but that would sort of defeat the purpose.) Long Hives take less work to do a particular operation, but more attention more often than a Lang.
Quote from: FRAMEshift on August 29, 2011, 03:18:25 PM
Quote from: BjornBee on August 29, 2011, 03:01:35 PM
I'm confused about the advantage of adding the number of frames you want in a long box, as compared to some 8 or 10 frame box. :idunno: A void is a void, and bees will fill any void once the room is needed. Sticking in 5 frames in a long box, or 5 frames in a standard 10 frame box....is different how?
If you want to expand the broodnest by 3 frames, you add 3 frames. There is no void if you use a follower board. It also lets you expand the broodnest without dividing it.
From your link:
Trench Style Configuration
The trench style hive, also called a "long hive", is a hive that models itself after a Top Bar Hive. There are no frames used except the top bar..."
This is the misconception that many people start with when it comes to long hives. A long hive that uses standard Lang frames has the advantages of a top bar without the disadvantages. The fact that you are not stacking boxes on top of each other does not mean you have to adopt top bars with all the adhesion problems and lack of side support for comb.
Yes, frames can be used in a long hive. Just as a follower board can be used in any hive, or frames or no frames. And you can add three frames at a time to any hive.
For my own websire information, it is tailored for those keeping long hives for foundationless systems. The difference is, I do not selectively state this is exclusive to the long hive, or hype details that make it sound as if they can not be used in other hives.
Glad you see my point.
Quote from: FRAMEshift on August 29, 2011, 03:30:43 PM
Quote from: BjornBee on August 29, 2011, 03:24:38 PM
So what?
I can use a follower board in any hive. I can also add three frames at a time to any hive.
So why is such things being promoted as some advantageous item in regards to a long hive?
A follower board is not much use in a Langstroth hive since the bees can move vertically. In a long hive, the follower defines the space of the hive. If you add 3 frames to an existing 10 frame Langstroth hive, you will have a 7 frame void, whether you use a follower or not. Well, I guess if you use a follower, you will have a 6 frame void. :-D
Give me a break. The discussion is about using a follower board in conjunction with adding three frames at a time. Something along the lines of a small split or a nuc. Now you say a follower board would be useless because you limit your thinking to limits of adding full boxes at a time. A follower board could be used when adding three frames to a starter colony, same as the discussion on the long hive. By the time you get to ten frames, you have a colony big enough to take out the follower board anyways.
Quote from: BjornBee on August 29, 2011, 03:45:13 PM
Now you say a follower board would be useless because you limit your thinking to limits of adding full boxes at a time. A follower board could be used when adding three frames to a starter colony, same as the discussion on the long hive.
You said you could add 3 frames to any hive. Now it's only nucs? The point is that with a Long Hive, you can add three or five or ten frames and just slide the follower down. You can't do that with a Langstroth Hive because you are constrained by box size and a follower is useless in a stacked box system. And in order to add frames you are forced to divide the broodnest. But again, the follower is not so important. It's the fact that you don't have to lift boxes.
We use foundationless Langstroth frames in our Long Hives. You seem to be making lots of assumptions about whether a Long Hive has foundation or top bars. It's not just you. I hear all the time that a Long Hive must use top bars. There is no connection at all.
Quote from: FRAMEshift on August 29, 2011, 04:02:28 PM
Quote from: BjornBee on August 29, 2011, 03:45:13 PM
Now you say a follower board would be useless because you limit your thinking to limits of adding full boxes at a time. A follower board could be used when adding three frames to a starter colony, same as the discussion on the long hive.
You said you could add 3 frames to any hive. Now it's only nucs? The point is that with a Long Hive, you can add three or five or ten frames and just slide the follower down. You can't do that with a Langstroth Hive because you are constrained by box size and a follower is useless in a stacked box system. And in order to add frames you are forced to divide the broodnest. But again, the follower is not so important. It's the fact that you don't have to lift boxes.
We use foundationless Langstroth frames in our Long Hives. You seem to be making lots of assumptions about whether a Long Hive has foundation or top bars. It's not just you. I hear all the time that a Long Hive must use top bars. There is no connection at all.
Why are you saying I said you MUST use top bars?
Don't put words in my mouth. I never said that.
You can add 3 frames to any hive. And I didn't say this was just in regards to nucs.
Honestly, I don't even know why I try.
I guess I should just leave it that needing a follower board is a positive and adding three frames at a time is exclusive to a long hive.
Is that good enough for you. Wrong....but good enough huh?
If your worried about adding three frames at a time, you have a rather small colony. Like what a 10 frame box holds. Perhaps a colony that is still in one box...even a 10 frame Lang. A place where one could certainly use a follower board if desired.
You throw out that advice with the baby, based on thinking about the second or third box up. Use some commonsense will ya.
Yes...the best part of a long hive is the ability to add three frames at a time, and the suggested use of a needed follower board. Geesh! Glad you don't focus on the real negatives of this hive. You would have a cow wrapping that around your head.
This by the way, for those reading this, is why we have threads like "I hate my TBH", and other fantastic discussions. Because people hype a few selected narrow points making one type way of beekeeping sound all fantastic and worry free, promoting fluff to those who will listen. And so beekeepers choose based on stuff that really means nothing and on poor information.
FRAMEshift,
I see what you're saying. And to this reader, it doesn't appear that you're writing "fluffy one sided promotion" to me. Really, the ability to add a few frames rather than a whole box, is a minor detail. If it were "fluffy promotion", I'd be looking for a bigger claim.
Adam
Quote from: Adam Foster Collins on August 29, 2011, 04:54:37 PM
FRAMEshift,
I see what you're saying. And to this reader, it doesn't appear that you're writing "fluffy one sided promotion" to me. Really, the ability to add a few frames rather than a whole box, is a minor detail. If it were "fluffy promotion", I'd be looking for a bigger claim.
Adam
The only big claim is that you don't have to lift boxes when you use a long hive. That is somewhat offset by the fact that you have to check the hive more often since you have limited space. I would say that adding frames at will is mainly an advantage in the spring, when you are gradually opening the brood nest. In that sense, Bjorn is right that it matters most when the hive is at its smallest. It's also nice to be able to expand the broodnest without dividing it.
Bjorn is also correct that you can use a follower with a nuc. But a nuc is really just a very short "long hive" since the relevant point is that all the frames are at the same level.
All in all, a long hive is great for a backyard hive so that you can keep an eye on it. If you are a commercial beekeeper with outyards, the Langstroth is probably a better bet. The Langstroth is more work but the work is predictable and done all at once. You can stack the supers and then leave it alone. A Long has to be checked more often and you have to harvest the honey more frequently. My beeyard is right next to my house so I find it to be much less work than the Langstroths we used to use.
Wow! I use both and like them equally, but Long Hives (and TBH) taught me more about bees and their behavior than Langs ever did, likely due to more required inspections, I'm not sure. The bees seem to love them that's for sure and its well known that most of the worlds 'kept bees' are kept in Long hives or TBH. The 'primary' plus for me, as has been mentioned, is NOT having to move around full boxes, only frames.
I'll likely continue using both for my little beeyard until I can no longer lift full medium Langs (might be sooner than later).
And besides, Why shouldn't people speak of the benefits 'they've' experienced keeping bees? Isn't that the purpose of any forum?
thomas
Quote from: BjornBee on August 29, 2011, 04:23:36 PM
Why are you saying I said you MUST use top bars?
Don't put words in my mouth. I never said that.
"a "long hive", is a hive that models itself after a Top Bar Hive.
There are no frames used except the top bar..."
That's from the link in your first post in this thread.
You certainly imply a connection between long hives and the use of top bars
Quote
You can add 3 frames to any hive. And I didn't say this was just in regards to nucs.
If you add 3 frames to stacked box hive you will be leaving a big void. Of course you can add 3 frames to a nuc or a 10 frame box with a follower. But those are just examples of small "long hives" since all the frames are on one level. The whole point of a Langstroth hive is that the boxes are stacked. And you can only add frames in multiples of the box size.
Quote
I guess I should just leave it that needing a follower board is a positive and adding three frames at a time is exclusive to a long hive.
Is that good enough for you. Wrong....but good enough huh?
As I stated above, you don't need a follower in a long hive. You can just fill it with frames like a Langstroth. But you have the option to use a follower when it helps to restrict the box volume (winter and early spring) and add exactly the space you need. You don't have that option with a Langstroth .... because the boxes are stacked. If they are not stacked, they are not Langstroth hives in any sense that matters. They are long hives because all the frames are at the same level.
QuoteIf your worried about adding three frames at a time, you have a rather small colony. Like what a 10 frame box holds. Perhaps a colony that is still in one box...even a 10 frame Lang. A place where one could certainly use a follower board if desired.
You throw out that advice with the baby, based on thinking about the second or third box up. Use some commonsense will ya.
I find it convenient to add the space I need. In early spring I need to add just a few frames at once to open the brood nest gradually without chilling the brood or adding a void, and that is possible in a long hive. It is not possible in a Langstroth with more than one box.
Quote
Yes...the best part of a long hive is the ability to add three frames at a time, and the suggested use of a needed follower board. Geesh! Glad you don't focus on the real negatives of this hive. You would have a cow wrapping that around your head.
I didn't say that was the best part, but it is a useful part. If you have some point about the "real negatives" of a long hive, this thread would be the place to state them. But so far I have not seen you point out any negatives that are specific to long hives.
IMO.....the reason I like long hives are for the simple fact that you can have a two queen hive and still use supers, either in the middle or suppers on each or one end. You have a larger supply of bees working the supers during a flow and for me I have found that the honey yield is somewhat greater than with two standard 10 frame hives. Another advantage comes when you are making splits from a two queen hive, the hive repopulates much faster, thus more splits.
Like I said, this is just from my experience and they may not be topical for everyone in every location.
Quote from: BjornBee on August 29, 2011, 03:24:38 PM
A long hive does however never take advantage of trapped heat in the upper box for early brood in winter, or allow the bees to travel as they naturally do in an up and down movement.
The "bees naturally want vertical space" thing is always touted and doesn't make sense to me.
To bees, all spaces are vertical. They travel up and down the vertical comb in whatever space they hang their combs. The combs only change in length and number. Natural cavities in trees are often horizontal, or diagonal. Spaces in rock cliffs, voids in buildings (which have been around for many thousands of years as well. Empty voids "naturally" are not perfectly vertical, and bees are not any more "naturally" inclined to use the langstroth hive over any other. Bees also have to move horizontally in the Lang box, and ten frames in a single box is still a lot of comb, and a lot of horizontal space when compared to the average size of a tree hollow (which I think Tom Seeley measured at 8" in diameter). And the bees are often reluctant to move up to the next box, perhaps because the lang is vastly oversized, compared to the 40L they "naturally" prefer.
You can use a follower in a lang box, only if it's a single box. It doesn't work in stacked boxes. So you're adding boxes as units of space - and big ones at that. I think that was the point FRAMEshift was making. It means that "trapped heat" you're talking about goes up into the empty box - and that doesn't help your brood any. Truthfully, your trapped heat theory works better in a long hive, as you never have any space above the brood. So the heat's trapped at the lid.
Adam
There is a point about bee movement in a Long vs a Lang that I would like to hear some discussion on. It is often said that in a multibox Langstroth hive, bees move up during the winter, eating honey as they go. Then in the Spring, the brood nest moves back down as honey is added at the top and the queen is forced to lay further down. But I have heard some beekeepers say that in a Lang their bees do not move but sit where the broodnest was at the beginning of winter and bring honey down to that level from higher up as winter progresses. Has anyone had this experience? I'm wondering if this depends on climate.
I also wonder how this normally works in a Long Hive. Our bees seem to stay in one place during the winter and bring honey to the broodnest. I have heard this is common in horizontal hives. Does anyone have enough experience with both types to see a difference in how the bees move over the winter and spring?
QuotePosted by: Adam Foster Collins
Truthfully, your trapped heat theory works better in a long hive, as you never have any space above the brood. So the heat's trapped at the lid.
Adam, I'm wondering if this is related to your point about the fact that in a Long Hive the bees are always at the top where it is warmest and so they don't have to move during the winter.
I run 4" top bar hives with end entrances. Bees move to the top of the combs at the entrance end - where the brood is all year. The cluster seems to stay there in this region. By winter, there is a lot of honey stored in the brood frames at the top. By the time that honey has been consumed, it is getting warm enough for bees to travel further back for stores and return to the cluster at the entrance end.
In the tbh, or long hive. The heat is along the top, and never changes, as we don't add supers. The "vertical" space is about 12" high, and they glue the top bars together, so the heat is trapped there pretty well. I add insulation to the outer cover through the winter.
Adam
Quote from: Adam Foster Collins on August 29, 2011, 11:12:49 PM
By the time that honey has been consumed, it is getting warm enough for bees to travel further back for stores and return to the cluster at the entrance end.
That's exactly what my bees do. I think the bees really consume very little honey during the coldest part of winter. Most of it is consumed as they start to make brood in the early spring.
Adam, do you have any similar experience with Langstroth hives in the same climate?
I'm just running the tbh's at the moment, but I have some lang gear and am thinking about setting up some long hives. My father uses langs, so I have a certain amount of experience working them, but I just like the way the top bar is all at one level with no lifting. We're also in a hurricane area here, so we get the remains of several big storms per year. Irene just blew through. I like that I don't have to worry so much about hives going over in the wind.
Adam
Addressing the original post:
We started this year with 2 hives Both on deeps. 1 a 33 frame long hive, the other 8 frame lang. Since then we have had to split into more langs.
As a beginner I definitely found the long hive easier to work and manipulate especially with a follower board. Easy to gradually expand the space. Easy to add empty frames to either end or the middle. Easy to stick a split, or nuc, or a couple frames you want to look closer at (say while searching for a queen) in the far end.
I also really liked having all the frames at waist level It made inspecting and "messing about" much easier as a beginner. Lots or room, no bending, no lifting, ect.
One thing I didn't like about them was when feeding was necessary I had to use frame feeders, which meant going in to the hive to refill. Which was much more of a pain then a jar on a screened opening on inner cover.
They (long hives) are inherently more stable in a wind; which was nice this past weekend as Irene came through. But easily overcome with langs as well it seems.
I do find the lang gear faster and easier to build when needed (and I run a professional woodshop)
I also find the simple mobility of the langs was handy as we generated splits and swarms...easy to move a box down the road to another location.
Like wise I suspect combines will be slightly easier with the stacked boxes.
All in all I realy like the longhive but would not want more than one or two for right around the house as a hobbyist.
With my limited experience these comments have limited value. They are just the quick observations of someone who didn't have a bias to one system or the other 6 months ago.
I will be very interested to see if I notice difference in wintering over the next few years. I does make sense to me that vertical may be preferential here in the north. Movement of the cluster as a intact mass is simply accomplished. it can creep up through the space. whereas moving horizontally requires the ball to separate to move around frame edges.
QuoteOne thing I didn't like about them was when feeding was necessary I had to use frame feeders, which meant going in to the hive to refill. Which was much more of a pain then a jar on a screened opening on inner cover.
what i do with mine is make an additional follower board for each hive that is notched at the bottom for either one or two boardman feeders depending on what will fit, the ktbh only allow for one, but the ttbh can fit two easily or even three if i wanted it. it requires some empty space at the back of course but i try not to let them fill the hive completely anyway so that there is room to manipulate the frames.
adam, you said you cover your hives ? do you have problems with condensation ? i only had one hive last winter and they weren't that big so i covered them, but in spring everything was wet and moldy.
Quote from: windfall on August 30, 2011, 10:35:58 AM
One thing I didn't like about them was when feeding was necessary I had to use frame feeders, which meant going in to the hive to refill.
We use top feeders on our long hives. I've also been playing with Finski's method of just pouring syrup into drawn comb and adding it to the hive. Yes you have to go into the hive but you only have to do it once if you add enough frames.
Quote from: windfall on August 30, 2011, 10:35:58 AM
I do find the lang gear faster and easier to build when needed (and I run a professional woodshop)
I think of a long hive as just a lang with longer sides. You only have to run two long rabbets which I would think is easier than running separate rabbets on each lang box. What is it about langs that makes them faster and easer?
I feed my Long Hive colonies behind the honey side follower board, it has a 1" hole that can be left open or closed with some duct tape. Unfortunately, one of my Longs is now full, leaving no room to feed behind the follower even if I wanted to.
However, with the system I have adopted, that includes various sized boards placed above the frames acting as an inner cover (one board has an access hole that can be moved above wherever brood nest is located), allows me to feed syrup w/ a baggie or pour dry sugar right on top, under the outer/top cover, which has a 1/2" clearance between. Its my own design and quite frankly I didn't know what I was doing at the time, but it works fairly well and my bees seem to love it. I'm still trying to keep a Long hive going longer than one winter though and if I can keep this one from swarming it may yet happen :)
thomas
Quote from: FRAMEshift on August 30, 2011, 11:25:17 AM
Quote from: windfall on August 30, 2011, 10:35:58 AM
I do find the lang gear faster and easier to build when needed (and I run a professional woodshop)
I think of a long hive as just a lang with longer sides. You only have to run two long rabbets which I would think is easier than running separate rabbets on each lang box. What is it about langs that makes them faster and easer?
Admittidly I went a bit over the top with the long hive I built, but even keeping it simple you need a much larger bottom or bottom board, a larger (possibly multiple part) roof system and some sort of base or legs to bring it up to a comfortable level...and the follower boards are awfully nice.
With langs you can expand the hive by simply adding a box...and making a box without bottom or top is about as easy as it gets. Anytime you reduce the number or size of components things get cheaper and faster.
To be fair, as folks are pointing out regarding feeding options, there are a lot of ways to "skin a cat" and you could build a pretty basic long hive quick and cheap as well.
Quote from: windfall on August 30, 2011, 03:10:16 PM
even keeping it simple you need a much larger bottom or bottom board, a larger (possibly multiple part) roof system and some sort of base or legs to bring it up to a comfortable level...and the follower boards are awfully nice.
Yes, I see what you mean. We just staple #8 hardware cloth to make a bottom. Four concrete blocks and two cheap landscaping timbers make the 19 inch tall base for 2 long hives. That's not very expensive. But the 3 migratory tops per hive are expensive. I've made some from scrap lumber that work ok but the commercial ones with aluminum tops look alot better. :-D
Somehow I had gotten the idea you were running solid bottoms?
Quote from: bulldog on August 30, 2011, 10:48:52 AM
Quote...adam, you said you cover your hives ? do you have problems with condensation ? i only had one hive last winter and they weren't that big so i covered them, but in spring everything was wet and moldy.
No - not "cover" per se, but I just put burlap and sawdust into the outer cover (lid) in order to insulate some. There was some moisture - but not so much that it was a problem. That's because I also replace my follower board with a screened in "basket" which is the same shape as the follower, but about 5 inches thick. Both sides are screened and I fill it right up with sawdust. Then I put that up against the last bar just as I would the follower. Remember this is in a ktbh. This baske/follower of sawdust allows moisture to escape.
Adam