I will be starting a new hive with new equipment next spring. My question concerns the better way to get the bees. Should I order a package this fall for next spring or a beek friend of mine said if I would get her a nuc by February she would get bees from one of her 6 hives when they swarm. The obvious to me is if I wait and she doesn't have any swarm it might be too late to order a package. The other thought is the queen in the swarm will probably be a year old at least... The plus of course is saving the cost of the package. I offered to pay but she doesn't want anymore than the 6 hives so she's glad for me to take them... what do you folks think?
Thanks
Go for the freeby! Packages may/may not make a good colony. Swarms (April thru June) most always do.
Buy three hives and order one package. She will fill the second one and someone will offer you a swarm to fill the third.
I prefer local bees over a package any time. If you are just starting out it would be best to start with two hives so you can compare one to the other or be able to rob from one to boost the other if needed. Bees are like Lays potatoe chips "you can't have just one". Jim
I would do both!
The real issue, IMO, is what do you want to have the bees on when you are done? Small cell? Large cell? TBH? Deeps? Mediums? Then what size nucs are available? Can you get what you want (e.g. small cell mediums etc.)? If not, then buy the packages. If yes, and especially if, in addition to being what you want as far as cell size and frame size, you can get local overwintered nucs, then I'd buy the nucs.
My problem is I want them on small cell comb in mediums... and I have at least 100 emails a year from people who built a top bar hive and bought a nuc and don't know what to do now... or they bought a deep large cell nuc and want them on small cell mediums and never thought about that fact that the frames wouldn't fit...
I just wonder how she knows she is going to catch her swarm or that she will have a swarm at a time of use for you (or any swarm at all)?
Do you currently have hives? How about just split some of yours come spring? Put out some swarm traps (I was 2 for 4 this year, besides the swarms I caught). put your name of some swarm lists. Ask for a small split from some local beek to start your nuc (you could start with 3 frames of bees and some eggs/brood).
I am working hard from this point out to avoid the package cycle - it somehow seems rough on the bees and spreads disease and doesn't fit with a locavore flavor.
>I am working hard from this point out to avoid the package cycle - it somehow seems rough on the bees and spreads disease and doesn't fit with a locavore flavor.
One of the selling points for packages has always been that it's LESS likely to spread disease as there are no combs to harbor brood diseases.
Here is some information concerning nucs and packages. We try to give an honest assessment of both options.
http://www.bjornapiaries.com/packagevsnuc.html (http://www.bjornapiaries.com/packagevsnuc.html)
Quote from: Michael Bush on September 09, 2011, 12:47:53 AM
>I am working hard from this point out to avoid the package cycle - it somehow seems rough on the bees and spreads disease and doesn't fit with a locavore flavor.
One of the selling points for packages has always been that it's LESS likely to spread disease as there are no combs to harbor brood diseases.
But, the wide spread distribution of millions of bees from a couple small centralized locations clearly has the capability of distributing whatever might be infecting those bees (and certainly they are not sterile bees so they will carry brood diseases as well as mites - it is certainly known that nosema is commonly found in packages, not that it isn't almost everywhere already). . . and bees that are quite stressed by the package process are more likely to not be as healthy as a vibrant locally maintained nucleus hive (as an example, but I am not saying you can't spread disease from comb or from nucleus hives).
I can certainly dig out some publications which mention the potential for quick spread of disease due to nation-wide and world-wide distribution of bees (e.g. say something like israel acute paralysis virus), but I don't think that the notion of the potential for quick spread of disease/mites from single centers due to commercial package processing is in question. It is very similar to how influenza can be spread very quickly by humans across the globe due to massive amounts of travel that occurs now vs. a hundred years ago prior to plane travel.
I would go so far as to say that if there was no package bee distribution and no agricultural mass shipping of pollinator bees that CCD would be much less of a problem world-wide and nation-wide than it is. Of course, at this point it is a stretch to say that these practices will be eliminated, but much like trying to work at obtaining local agriculture products and avoiding monoculture (as in a locavore lifestyle if I can just generalize it that way), I believe it would be beneficial to attempt to obtain vibrant colonies (less stressed) locally rather than buying package bees.
Quote from: iddee on September 07, 2011, 08:31:23 PM
Buy three hives and order one package. She will fill the second one and someone will offer you a swarm to fill the third.
Assuming the OP does not have any hives currently, I think iddee's advice is exactly right. You want a package for the security of knowing you will have some bees in the spring. And you will want to expand so it's a good idea to plan for that.
Thanks to all who responded. From all this info, the plan is to buy a package and if I am lucky enough to get a swarm I will have two more colonies to add to the one I currently have. I agree that getting off the "package bandwagon" as Bjornbee puts it, is definitely the way to go and that is the plan. But for now I need to be sure I will have bees for my 2nd hive next spring and a package is the best way to assure that happening. I have a medium two box nuc ready to go for a swarm or a split if one comes available. I am joining the local bee club very soon... have not been able to do it yet because my work interferes with the bee club meeting schedule. Then like some have said, there should be greater opportunity for local bees. So thanks again for the replies and you can bet I will continue to pump all of you with questions as they come up.
Poppi
Let's see if we can come up with the optimum way to distribute diseases and pests throughout North America. Let's say we take 1/2 of all the bees and transport them all to the same little valley in California for a month when nothing is really blooming and they will all be robbing each other out. Maybe for a week or two the almonds will bloom in there somewhere and provide a poor source of nectar and some inferior pollen. Now we will take all these stressed bees who have been robbing each other silly for a month and take them back to the four corners of the continent.
I think the process is already in place. The packages are the least of your worries.
And what makes this disease dissemination mechanism even more efficient is that the bees drift between hives while they are in California, so that many of the bees go back to a totally different home with all their disease vectors ready to go.
I just saw the new film "Contagion" (Matt Damon, Gwyneth Paltrow) and it sort of reminds me of the almond pollination fiasco.
Let's not point fingers too harshly. Some already posting on this thread are also those who sell, package, and ship bees all over the country. Of course, they probably deem their own bees not an issue. :roll:
Kind of like the feel good folks buying organic Shae butter soap. Never realizing that half the ingredients had to be flown in from around the world, creating a huge carbon footprint, and utilizing wood crating that transmits pests (how do you think half the pests and bugs got here). But they pay twice the price, get warm fuzzy feelings, and tell themselves they are doing the right thing to help the environment and nature.
The promotion of the bee industry of late, the lack of local bee sources, and the average beekeepers inability to raise their own queens and be self sufficient, all add to the problem. Bees get shipped around based on the average beekeepers demands in buying packages and queens, are just as much the problem as any migratory operations. It is based on demand. I wonder how many on here has never bought a package, profitted from selling bees that needed shipped, or would be free from any other thing that could be seen as part of the problem.
I am not a proponent or advocate of migratory beekeepers. I have spoke of their issues (illegal chems, disease transfer, etc.) many times. And have been attacked in letter writing campaigns, etc. But if we are going to point fingers, there are many fingers to go around.
Giving packages a pass, based on thinking migratory beekeeping is far worse, is questionable at best once you compare why both exists. One is based on food requirements. One is based mostly on hobby beekeepers' demands. One probably has a legit need. One does not.
Migratory beekeepers, the package industry, and the average beekeeper (most everyone) is part of the problem. ;)
Quote from: BjornBee on September 10, 2011, 07:43:31 AM
Migratory beekeepers, the package industry, and the average beekeeper (most everyone) is part of the problem. ;)
X:X X:X X:X X:X
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Moving any bees from anywhere to anywhere may transmit disease. When I started out the standard recommendation was packages because they were less likely to transmit diseases because there was no comb being moved, only bees. Bees are going to be moved. That is reality.
well i'm lucky enough to have a reliable source for local nucs. the 3 i got this spring have done well. a nearby beekeeping ass. ( 3 rivers in wentzville, mo ) have some members raising queens locally with a goal of using no queens that were reared south of the 38th parallel. one of the reasons is to avoid any chances of importing africanized bees to this area. the e.m.b..a did a group buy of nucs from an apiary in la. this past spring. the consensus is that the nucs did better than pkgs from earlier years.