I have a hive (10 deep) that was packed back at the beggining of our fall flow So I put a empty box on top and moved one frame up to it's center.
Since then they have filled/drawn out 3-4 additional frames in the top as well as a couple of partials. The empty frame in the bottom is untouched. Most of this happened in the last 2 weeks.
If weather holds we could have 2-3 weeks before hard frost and often quite a bit of warm days after that. The flow seems to be slowing and I was planning on feeding all the hives starting soon/now as they all were pretty light of stores coming into the flow.
I can imagine a number of ways to "pack down" this hive for the winter:
-Into 1 10 frame, and divy extra frames of stores to other hives or freeze as future feed. I would assume this should be done immediately so they know they lost a few frames of stores?
-in 2 tens with some follower boards to take up extra space. I would have to make some more followers but thats not too hard.
-into 2 8's if they make enough frames. I have plenty of empty 8's on hand.
I would like to wait as long a reasonable before making this decision to see how many more frames they might make and fill. But I also assume there must be a point at which it is a bad idea to be changing their space/box,removing any stores, or even moving a few frames around on them?
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The winter cluster will be same size as your brood area when nectar flow has ceased.
Then slowly summer bees die and you should press your bees so small room as possible.
Thanks finski. I think I understand what you are saying. My question is working with the timeline. I assume there must be a point (most likely temp dependent?) when I should stop moving anything around on them.
For example this hive now has 6-7 frames mostly brood 2-3 frames mostly pollen and 3-4 frames of stores in various stages...mostly uncapped., as well as a frame or two partialy drawn.
So 13-14 frames in a space that has room for 20.
Should I just leave them alone untill a hard killing frost, then fill extra space with follower boards?
or should I start limiting their space now to encourage them to finish, fill, and cap what they are working on. As well as back fill the broodnest as they finish brooding? So that I don't have to mess with their "organization" when things start to get cold and stay cold during the day?
I assume I want them to put up all the stores they can, and right now the brood nest is still full of brood so they can't store anything there yet. How quickly will they move stores down into the brood nest as the last of brood hatches out? will I suddenly see those 3-4 extra frames of stores on top disapear allowing me to close them down to a 10 frame boz without taking anything away but empty comb?
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The most important is that you have a bee stock which react properly to local climate.
First vegetation start to prepere itself for the autumn. Ih has done flowers and seeds and store starch into its roots and twigs and bulbs.
The lengt of day tell to plants and bees that winter is coming. Day temperature has no meaning in this process. High day temp could lead to trap the plants if next week there is a dedly frost.
In south breeded queens seldom react in proper way in Noerth. They continue brooring as long as they have pollen. This way the colony kills itself before Cristhmas.
Short of pollen usually tells that summer is over. Frost kills the rest of flowers and pollen is then kaput.
I had 2 weeks a go a mating nuc. It had short of pollen and the colony ate its larvae.
That is one nature mechanism to tell bees that stop brood rearing.
i try to do my last check and reduction before the first frost comes. there's nothing really special about 1st frost, but it's a good end point for me. by then, i have done my feeding, reduced size if they need it, and let them seal up the hive. i don't mess with them again after that....until spring. that means that i will be done with everything by the end of this month, or if it's unseasonably warm, maybe into the first 2 weeks of next month. this year we have had miserable flow so i want to make sure they are well fed up before i leave them to winter.
Since we're in close geographical proximity, maybe this information is helpful. Historically, I harvest honey September 15 - 30th and then start tucking in my girls for winter trying to be done by October 15th. I try to keep an eye on overnight temperatures, and try to be done opening hives once those temps are consistently below 40 degrees F.
During this process, I assess my young colonies to "shuffle" frames to give them the best chances at overwintering. For me, 8 frames of brood in a 10-frame double-deep or 4 frames of brood in a 5-frame double-deep nuc, with frames of honey/pollen flanking the brood nest, and a box full of honey (and at least one frame of pollen) overhead for over-wintering each colony. Using what you currently have, 2 8-frame boxes sound like a good fit.
Hope this helps.
These are all helpful responses. Thanks.
It sounds like I can delay any actions for a few more weeks anyway. Hopefully they will build and fill a few more frames and I can switch them over to 2 8's and have nicely filled volume.
Finski,
the bees are all Russian hybrids from a local breeder, and have proven well adapted to our region for him.
Kathy,
do you find the hives don't change much over the last month of autumn...maybe you don't know if you leave them alone from first frost on?
For us, first frost is really just the start of fall. We then usually get about a month of weather with many light frosts and warm days before real hard freezes and cold days start in. I would think a lot could change over that time depending on weather?
I feel like I am doing a funny balancing act. Hoping this hive makes a few more frames, while at the same time hoping a 5 frame nuc will slow down soon as it is getting pretty packed and I want it to fit into a insulated 5 frame nuc for the winter.
When do you all notice a hive population to peak prior to the autumn drop in numbers, and how fast do those numbers drop?
My bee numbers seem to be still climbing when I tuck them in for the winter. Sorry, since I don't usually see the bees until spring after that point, it would be hard to ascertain when and how fast their numbers drop.
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Hive wintering has nothing to do with killing frost. Here killing frost usually comes 10.9. Or 1,5 month later.
Hives stop brooding here and prepare themselves before killing frost. Nature goes on its own course which does not vary much between years.
For example trees turn yeallow at same week what ever the weather is. Flowers bloom at same time as on earlier years.
Bees "read " signs of nature and it is strange how adaptive honeybee is in different climates.
When I have bought queens from Italy, I got genes from south which made some hives less adaptive.
For exaple stocks from New Zealand will all die here.
For me, the #1 priority is getting mouse guards on before the bees cluster very much. October for sure.
A little extra space won't hurt the hives. Most of the winter the majority of the bottom box (in a 2+ box hive) is empty anyway. Don't mess around with follower boards. I imagine that could do more harm than good.
As long as we get some 60F days, the bees can pack away syrup really well. I'd wait another couple of weeks and then lift the hives and determine if they need a little extra. If you feel necessary, fondant on top can be added later.
If we get frost this weekend as is forecasted, that could change things a bit. Mostly then it would be moving up any needed feeding a bit, mostly because I can.
Rick
QuoteKathy,
do you find the hives don't change much over the last month of autumn...maybe you don't know if you leave them alone from first frost on?
For us, first frost is really just the start of fall. We then usually get about a month of weather with many light frosts and warm days before real hard freezes and cold days start in. I would think a lot could change over that time depending on weather?
i'm sure there are changes, but there's nothing that requires my attention. i want mine fed up before the weather changes because we are so wet here. i don't want to be introducing more moisture by way of syrup, late. if they are queen-right, space-right, and fed, my job is done.
they need to propolize things to keep moisture out and heat in.
Scads, what don't you like about reducing hive size with followers. I was under the impression it is a fairly common practice with smaller colonies?
Finski, in your climate perhaps things are more constant. Certainly daylight timing and increase or decrease are driving factors.
But for us temperature has a significant effect on bloom and harvest times. For example between last year and this year apple blossom was different by almost a full month. And folks would make great money if the turn of fall leaves were always the same since it is one of our regions biggest tourisim draws. But peak color can vary by over 3 weeks year to year.
How or if the bees follow those changes I am just starting to learn hence the questions.
BBees, That's a useful piece of info regarding hive populations. I had thought the drop off was earlier....hopefully that nuc won't get too crowded by then! I had planned on keeping them in the 10 frame box they are in and just move the follower as needed to expand. But then I took the time to build a insulated 5 frame similar to BlueBees...
Kathy, Your point regarding fall moisture is well taken. I don't think we are quite as damp as you all but november can be a pretty wet time for us before the real cold dries things out.
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Windfall, your country, look at the map and do not believe that the north Amecica is something which you may handl.
You country is from tropic to tundra. + Hawaili.
You need not learn from me nothing. I have studied geography and surely I understand more globe variety than normal human.
You kill your colonies in Alaska because you do not know how to keep them alive and goos condition.
You kill half of your hive in south when you collect thoudans of colonies on fields over winter.
Yes, i do not understan anything about beekeeping but I am able to keep them alive.
And I do not feed 60 kg honey to bees during winter. They stay alive 9 months with 20 kg sugar.
I have a fried half kilometre away. He nurses his bees in controversy manner and we get same yields.
That is beekeeping. EVERYONE PICK IDEAS FROM MASS OF ADVICES. There is no one way habit to keep bees.
I am tired to keep these lessons. i have learned my style from Americans even if it fit here not a bit. That stupid method gives me only 100 kg per hive. In a month..
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Windfall. Our summer coming varies inside 3 weeks.
Twigs in the air react better to the temperature but roots in the soil, like dandelion, react more stedily. then at the beginning of August the nature start to prepare itself to wintering. Flowers do not bloom, what ever the weather is.
Our summer is so short that it cannot vary very much. But the weather is not constat. It waries weekly. our yield season is one month long. Not more. It the whole July rains, we do not get much honey. Then in August everything is over, because there is no flower.
So happened this year in Central Finland. They got 30-40 kg per hive, and 300 km to east I got from many hives over 100 kg. A balance hive brought 140 kg in 5 weeks.
The British beekeepers say that I do not understand they climate. How? I see from a map their weather. When they have a low pressure, it is in Finland 2 days later.
Yeees. I think that every beekeeper should have doctor studies in meteorology. Then they are able to keep bees.
Easy finski,
I respect your experience, I have asked your advice several times in threads as well as PM... I have no experience with bees this is why I ask the questions I do.
I do have extensive experience with plants and climate, my degree is in Environmental Science, so my observations are not just whimsy or anecdotal. Biological response to changing season is multi-level and complex. Some climates are far more predictable and stable than others.
I was not speaking for all of USA, I was referring to the specific region I am dwelling: Northern VT mountains.
I did not mean to imply that you were incorrect in your observations only to explain that observations here have been different; and wondering how that difference might effect management of the hives.
I am not sure what you took offense to, perhaps this is a translation thing?
My honey supers have been off for about three weeks. I started squeezing (eliminating and/or moving some empty frames) the same time. The goldenrod flow was exceptional this year, so I've got three colonies packed w/ bees and honey (2 Langs in 4 mediums and a Long hive w/ 33 full medium frames). I'm also nursing a swarm that was captured about ten days ago and haven't decided what to do yet, but we've got about a month before a decision becomes a must (combine or NUC for winter). I'll work my hives as long as temps are in the fifties w/ no wind.
I'll close them all up for winter and fill feed boxes with dry sugar on or before October 15, the same date we use for planting garlic each year.
thomas
Quote from: windfall on September 15, 2011, 03:25:29 PM
Easy finski,
I respect your experience, I have asked your advice several times in threads as well as PM... I have no experience with bees this is why I ask the questions I do.
I do have extensive experience with plants and climate, my degree is in Environmental Science, so my observations are not just whimsy or anecdotal. Biological response to changing season is multi-level and complex. Some climates are far more predictable and stable than others.
I was not speaking for all of USA, I was referring to the specific region I am dwelling: Northern VT mountains.
I did not mean to imply that you were incorrect in your observations only to explain that observations here have been different; and wondering how that difference might effect management of the hives.
I am not sure what you took offense to, perhaps this is a translation thing?
my degree was physiological ecology of plants. Our sprng is quite steady. It follows the angle on sun radiation, I suppose.
At the beginning of Marsh sun starts to melt vertical snow heaps..
First of May willows star t to bloom. My experince tells that soil frost melts. It is important moment to brood rearing.
But weather is so cold often that bees cannot fly to willow flowers. H owever bees build up with their own speed.
And so on.
Actually here things go at same way in some tolerance.
Sometimes hives build up 2 weeks slower than usual an sometimes spring is 2 weeks ahead.
When brood cycle is 3 weeks, the spring and hive build up do not meet. Sometimes they meet very well.
In Autumn I Must prepare myself to worst scenario when Autumn comes. Autumn gives no mercy when it arrives. marginals are narrow.
Great to have options like you have and a little time before you to have to commit. I find the insulated hives intriguing. I'm hoping to get one made for this winter too.
For what it's worth in my little corner of the world, I try to "balance" my hives with about 50% Honey, 10% Pollen, and 40% Brood frames before I tuck them in for the winter. Frequently I have to borrow some frames from other hives. But if that's not possible I reduce them down to nucs. Your 8 frame option is great.
Also, the more I can encourage the queens to keep laying as long as possible by feeding syrup and pollen patties and most importantly, providing extra open, drawn comb in the brood nest during September, the better my colonies seem to over-winter. (Learned the hard way about overfeeding!) The more eggs I see on the frames come October, the more winter bees that colony will have to keep the colony warm until spring.
Quote from: Finski on September 15, 2011, 02:43:35 PM
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Windfall. Our summer coming varies inside 3 weeks.
Twigs in the air react better to the temperature but roots in the soil, like dandelion, react more stedily. then at the beginning of August the nature start to prepare itself to wintering. Flowers do not bloom, what ever the weather is.
Our summer is so short that it cannot vary very much. But the weather is not constat. It waries weekly. our yield season is one month long. Not more. It the whole July rains, we do not get much honey. Then in August everything is over, because there is no flower.
So happened this year in Central Finland. They got 30-40 kg per hive, and 300 km to east I got from many hives over 100 kg. A balance hive brought 140 kg in 5 weeks.
The British beekeepers say that I do not understand they climate. How? I see from a map their weather. When they have a low pressure, it is in Finland 2 days later.
Yeees. I think that every beekeeper should have doctor studies in meteorology. Then they are able to keep bees.
The climate in uk is very different . For example, one the great flows, heather, is only just starting to end now in mid september. The North Atlantic current makes a big difference. But cold is cold anywhere and wet cold is worse not easier on all animals. I think your point is ratherm a lot UK bee keepers dont understand how bees prosper in the UK climates. In this small archipelago of 5000 islands spaninng 49N to 60N, we have a surprising variety of sub climates , from palm trees to tundra
Quote from: BBees on September 15, 2011, 06:34:48 PM
For what it's worth in my little corner of the world, I try to "balance" my hives with about 50% Honey, 10% Pollen, and 40% Brood frames before I tuck them in for the winter. Frequently I have to borrow some frames from other hives. But if that's not possible I reduce them down to nucs. Your 8 frame option is great.
I don't know what it is worth...how long have you been doing it and how many bees do you buy in spring :-D
The ratio numbers are quite usefull. Most folks keep talking about winter hive weight, but when most of you hives are small that doesn't help much. A proportional relation of brood honey and stores is helpful for a begginer like me. thanks.
Windfall,
Good question. A little background. Grew up in the agricultural sector. Started "playing" with bees back in late 70's when I was in the Vet School at Cornell. Work, family, and life kept it at a hobby level at best with many interruptions. Got really serious about 5 years ago trying to do my part to counter the CCD problem. Got hooked up with the local beekeeping club, and now I coordinate and lecture at our local beekeeping class though Cornell's Co-op extension. Colony numbers have ranged from 0 to 50 over the years. Currently working about 30 hives (number depends on the day) plus help a handful of students (and that's an education in itself!) Probably killed at least 20-25 packages and nucs those first years. Finally got off that merry-go-round and started raising my own queens (with the help of forums like this.) This is the first year I haven't bought any bees! Basically if there's anything you can do wrong in beekeeping, I've probably done it. Many have been very expensive seminars! Still a very fascinating and addictive hobby (never want to make a business - takes all the fun out of it!)
Unknowingly, I've been doing my "queen encouragement" for the past three years. Finally dawned on me (yes I may be a slow learner and skeptical of new ideas, but I'm stubborn!) that my strongest colonies in the spring were the donor colonies for my queen rearing program and my over-wintered nucs. Really the only variable different from my other hives was that these were the colonies I was consciously adding drawn comb to the brood nest late in the season when I was feeding to help build the colonies. Then a couple years ago, Mother Nature decided to blow a couple of my hives over during a November storm. Putting them back together, I noted one was really full of eggs. When I went to check my records, sure enough it was one of my donor colonies. Then despite the incident, this was one of my strongest hives that spring. Then looking further back in my records, that's when I saw strong over-wintered colony pattern associated with these donors. Bottom line, feeding is good to build up stores, but without extra cells for the queen to lay in, we're strangling her laying capability when it's very important to raise winter bees. I think this is one of the rare "more is better" situations, the more winter bees, the better the hives chances of making through the winter.
Undoubtedly, this is not a controlled experiment, just musing of an old bee-crazy veterinarian following the numbers. Now the fun is to play with this management practice in hopes of further improvement, yet keep an open mind (and closed mouth sometimes) so we don't get tunnel-vision. I have a little trouble with it because it goes against historical conventional wisdom (did I say I was a skeptic?) Losing 10-50% of your livestock over the winter is just not acceptable to me (did I say I was stubborn?)
Part of the intrigue of this passion is the multilevel, interdependent variables needed to achieve a balanced hive. Keeps the brain young.
Sorry to be so long-winded.
Enjoy.
BBees; Thanks for the interesting observations. More (winter) bees before Winter (by providing brood comb) = better chances for Spring survival.
thomas