I am more of a traditionalist but have been scouring the internet and see that some people are using plastic frames.
Who Down Under uses them? (Other countries as well) What are the pro's and con's you have found using the plastic frames? And what's the approximate lifetime of a plastic frame?
Ben
Ben,
if you fill out your location in your information we can give you some better advice.
If you're in warm areas, ie QLD I would not even consider the full 1 piece plastic frames as there are way too many crevices for SHB to hide in.
Plastic foundation I have used but don't like. The bees don't seem to like is as much either. In my hives they draw it MUCH slower, and make much more brace comb on it. If you want to cut out a queen cell etc it's much harder with plastic foundation. The bees can't modify it at all, eg sometimes they make holes to travel between frames on wax foundation frames.
I have tried to get rid of all of my plastic foundation and have gone for foundationless frames. I have not thrown the plastic foundation out though as one day I may use them in an emergency, or for a swarm trap or something.
ML
In my opinion plastic will be more and more widely used. They have so many advantages that it is difficult to list them all in a post.
Disadvantages? I hear some are disappointed. Perhaps they had the bad luck of a low quality product, or not used correctly. There is a variety on the market.
I tried out the plastic frames of Nicot (http://www.nicotplast.fr/ApiAnglais/Hiveparts/frame-baticadre-hive.htm). Perfect.
It is not only foundation but partially the walls are drawn out. It does not need waxing. I hived a swarm on it and the queen started to lay eggs as soon the bees warmed it up. Only later they finished the cells with wax.
If it is used for honey, the nectar is deposited immediately without any wax.
Quote from: boca on September 16, 2011, 05:04:01 AM
They have so many advantages that it is difficult to list them all in a post.
Do you have SHB problems in your area?
If we didn't have such a SHB problem here in Subtropical QLD I would probably find the plastic frames/foundation less counterproductive than foundationless.
ML
Quote from: Meadlover on September 16, 2011, 08:49:27 AM
Do you have SHB problems in your area?
If we didn't have such a SHB problem here in Subtropical QLD I would probably find the plastic frames/foundation less counterproductive than foundationless.
No. Fortunately we don't have it.
Would it make a difference in the context of using plastic frames? .. other than it is straightforward to clean and disinfect the plastic and to put them back as new ones.
I use plastic foundation in timber frames - i'm thinking of going plastic foundation for the honey supers but wax foundation for the brood nests... I've had hassles with the bees not drawing out the plastic foundation any where near as quickly as the wax foundation...
I use plastic foundation in wood frames. That avoids the crevice problems and the warping problems with the all plastic frames. I really like the plastic foundation when it works. Much easier to deal with problems and scrape off bad comb with plastic in the middle.
I've used 2 brands here in the US, one brand the bees readily combed up, the other brand (small cell) they would not touch. I finally took the advice of some guys here in the forum and rolled more bees wax on the ones the bees didn't touch. That did the trick, they combed it up beautifully (and quickly). Yes, it is a pain to have to put your own wax on the plastic, but it works.
Plastic foundation in wood frames works a treat after the first season, some down her roll on molten wax, some paint of syrup. No particular correct or incorrect way as long as the bees draw comb. Extracting a treat as the foundation does not collapse as readily in some other wax foundation types. Both systems work well, probably depends upon personal preferences.
I am working in small cell frames when I can. Here's an odd thing I noticed - the all plastic frames were the only ones with eggs in them! And they were fully drawn out when others weren't. Go figure. I did paint on some of their own wax - maybe it smelled fresher?
I do see all of those crevices. Maybe that is why I saw a bee intently examining one. Wonder if they could be filled with something.
I have only found the small cell in all plastic frames. :(
I got some two piece plastic frames today, you unclip them with your hive tool and insert the wax foundation. They should work well, there is a couple of small gaps the shb could try to get into. I guess you could seal it with bees wax.
(http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/2036/img6359oi.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/855/img6359oi.jpg/)
(http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/5978/img6360f.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/202/img6360f.jpg/)
(http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/6904/img6361dm.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/33/img6361dm.jpg/)
Most recently I filled a box with wooden frames and plastic foundation. Never used plastic before and was a bit worried the bees wouldn't build on it so I melted some wax and brushed it on as best I could. Didn't get it covered very well since the wax solidifies too quickly but the bees built on it fine anyway. I have found they build on it slower but that could also be not enough nectar flowing for them to need the space for storage.
I also put 2 plastic foundation frames in another hive without the wax treatment and they are built out pretty well also.
From today I am using plastic foundation in one super, at least as a trial. The clincher was being away for 6 weeks and having my helpful landlords plonk another super on the hive here because there was a once in a 5 year honey flow and the single honey super filled up. However, they couldn't get the battery charger to work and could only find old brittle broken foundation which they squashed into the frames, the result being collapsed siamese newly drawn comb everywhere (which was handy to melt down and paint onto the plastic).
We've never done it before and didn't know exactly how much wax is needed on the plastic. Storms have started for the wet season so if they don't knock the ironbark flowers off, I hope I see the foundation drawn out.
Lone
i have drawn and used over 30,000 plastic frames in the last twelve months and all i can say is they are the only way to go . if flooded or blown apart like from cyclone yassi all they have to do is water blast them with hi pressure . with beetle you can water bast or dip in boiling water and go again . even after floods they are the best the wooden frames with the plastic tend to break down because of the acid from the honey. to drawn roll them with a fine line of molten wax in water also draw in top box for best results / plastic hives work best when all the frames are plastic
ozbee, may I ask what type/brand frame you use? Do you have SHB and if you do, what do you use for control?
Quote from: boca on September 16, 2011, 05:04:01 AM
I tried out the plastic frames of Nicot (http://www.nicotplast.fr/ApiAnglais/Hiveparts/frame-baticadre-hive.htm). Perfect.
It is not only foundation but partially the walls are drawn out. It does not need waxing. I hived a swarm on it and the queen started to lay eggs as soon the bees warmed it up. Only later they finished the cells with wax.
If it is used for honey, the nectar is deposited immediately without any wax.
I would like to try some of these myself but unfortunately, do not have a U.S distributor.
I use wood frames with plastic inserts.
wouldn't have it any other way. I have transitioned to plastics.
Still running some wax foundation mainly for brood box.
next year i should have none which i think is great....so much easier
:mrgreen:
Hi Peoples and Seasons Greetings to all!
Where is the best place to buy plastic frames and foundation? (the complete black ones)
I would like to start off with 100 or so.
Ta
ben
google "gilberts beekeeping", i have always found them very reliable
after anothers day of extraction...i submit that i will never use wax foundation EVER again...pain in the butt...
You wind the crank handle too fast, Eco?
:)
rod palmer the closet for NQ
apparently i did ... :shock:
By reading this older topic, I suppose plastic was still in the earlier learning stages at the time. A lot can be learned by reading
Beemasters older topics,
(a beekeepers time capsule if you will). I will post 'one' quote, though this one, is just one of many interesting post placed here, within this topic.
There are many related 'topics' in the archives pertaining to plastic frames..
Phillip
Quote from: ozbee on December 06, 2011, 02:43:43 AM
i have drawn and used over 30,000 plastic frames in the last twelve months and all i can say is they are the only way to go . if flooded or blown apart like from cyclone yassi all they have to do is water blast them with hi pressure . with beetle you can water bast or dip in boiling water and go again . even after floods they are the best the wooden frames with the plastic tend to break down because of the acid from the honey. to drawn roll them with a fine line of molten wax in water also draw in top box for best results / plastic hives work best when all the frames are plastic
Plastic frames. Plastic anything.
I have avoided most things plastic from the time we strated with bees.
It sure has it's place but recycling has limits and I try not to add to landfills.
There is another aspect - does plastic affect the taste of honey?
I have a mate who has about 150 hives and sells at the same places we sell. People regularly tell me that our honey is " much nicer". We like the compliment but why should our honey be " nicer"?
Most of his hives are in an area with a lot of Privet and Camfor laurel. This could be a reason - we are in a bush enviroment. Very few privets.
He uses a pump , plastic hoses, plastic frames and plastic supers...we don't use any of these things.
Any evidence that plastic has an affect on the taste of honey?
The plastic doesn't affect the flavor that I can tell. How much you heat the honey affects the flavor a lot. Keeping different nectar sources separate gives each kind a more distinct flavor. If you crush and strain it has more flavor then when you extract. The honey flying through the air loses a lot of floral notes. The most flavorful is comb honey.
Interesting, yet another reason why I don't see myself getting an extractor.
Being able to reuse the comb will make a lot more honey. Probably not enough to justify a new extractor for only a few hives, but enough to justify using one if you can get it cheap enough.
Isn't the plastic foundation coated with beeswax in the amount the bees themselves desire before they add nectar within the added drawn out cells? If so, isn't it reasonable to assess that the added nectar/honey 'flavor or taste' will not be changed by using a plastic foundation base, anymore than in comparison to natural beeswax foundation since nectar/honey is encased in beeswax from every angle, never touching the plastic in the foundation?.. (In both situations)
Phillip
Some are unwaxed and all are barely waxed. Like a light spray where most of the plastic is still exposed.
That is true. It is generally accepted that we either add a bit of wax ourselves, or buy plastic foundation pre-waxed to encourage the bees to take it from there, (a starting place if you will), to add what amount of wax they themselves deem acceptable for their purpose. Purchasing plastic foundation with some amount of wax added, or adding wax to it ourselves, will encourage bees to continue until they have it covered to their satisfaction. As if is also generally know, many times bees will not add wax (draw out bare plastic foundation) themselves without this added wax encouragement. But once accepted they will add what wax they deem adequate to finish coating the plastic.
Joe May of Indiana shows us a way to have bees wax coat the plastic foundation 'themselves' without us having to manually add wax ourselves.
https://youtu.be/1F8i1-K2Rzw?si=zbViSbNsiGrz_zyC
My neighbor got a batch of 100% plastic frames last year and he reports that they built on them like they loved them. His uncle was opposed to using them and said that the bees would not accept them.
That is awesome Terri, many times with bare plastic, they will start their 'own row of comb' on the outer edge of the top bar bypassing the plastic which is not a good thing.
Phillip
At the moment my bees have only enough nectar coming in to keep them going. If I were to place a plastic foundation or comb into a hive, they would take any wax from that frame and utilise it elsewhere. They only work plastic when there is no option ie a newly hived swarm, a hive building quickly in the spring or when there is a good flow on. Bees don?t like new plastic perhaps due to its smell. Plastic foundation that has previously been used in a hive can bee scraped clean and placed back into a box with better acceptance.
Thats right Les resources make the difference...
> His uncle was opposed to using them and said that the bees would not accept them.
Acceptance by the bees has a lot to do with timing. When there's a flow and there's no where else to build comb, they build it fast. When they don't need comb too badly, sometimes they will hesitate. And some of it is genetic. Some colonies are happy to build on it and others hesitate.
https://bushfarms.com/beesfaqs.htm#messedupcomb
https://bushfarms.com/beesfallacies.htm#waxplastic
Quote from: Michael Bush on December 29, 2023, 06:11:19 AM
> His uncle was opposed to using them and said that the bees would not accept them.
Acceptance by the bees has a lot to do with timing. When there's a flow and there's no where else to build comb, they build it fast. When they don't need comb too badly, sometimes they will hesitate. And some of it is genetic. Some colonies are happy to build on it and others hesitate.
https://bushfarms.com/beesfaqs.htm#messedupcomb
https://bushfarms.com/beesfallacies.htm#waxplastic
He did say that they built it fast. I don't know what 'fast' is here and I'm not sure that he does but he made it sound like they had whatever plastic frames he put in there, built out in a week. I do not know how many of them he put in either.
Terri,
When you use plastic frames, always add a super with plastic only. If they have anything else in the super, they will use that first and usually not use the plastic.
Jim Altmiller
OK, that's interesting.
Quote from: Ben Framed on December 28, 2023, 08:14:42 PM
That is awesome Terri, many times with bare plastic, they will start their 'own row of comb' on the outer edge of the top bar bypassing the plastic which is not a good thing.
Phillip
Here is a picture of an example of what we do not want, and why it is recommended that a wax coat be added to plastic foundation... Picture credit to Honeyflow.com
I have decided the most accurate description of this is a "parallel half comb". Because it's parallel to the foundation but there is only a cell on the outside and not on the back side. The other common problem are fins at right angles to the foundation.
When it comes to plastic. This comes to mind.
That material is a problem.
Traditional uses. ah over 80 years using plastics yeah?
We barely know anything on the risks and impacts to anything in ourselves and the natural world.
Repeat this over and over until it hurts.
When you see the results from greater than 5000x electronic microscope, peering into digestive output i.e stool or gut takings, plastics are spotted and confirmed.
Surely we would start to avoid plastic. Full stop.
But nay, convenience overtakes over, aka ignorance.
We have unleashed the day of no tomorrow.
And wonder the root cause of many problems, issues and annoyances in our daily lives.
Man made chemical materials and substances beyond harnessing natural resources such as wood which bees knows best.
But we have too, we are curious creatures.
When it comes to plastics, we know nothing.
Nothing of the true impact beyond tomorrow.
They are good, until they isn't.
Plastic is landfill, until it isn't.
If you do not believe me, here are three examples any person can do.
1: Take a synthetic pillow or blanket, wait any number months or years sitting around and observe the plastic decay. The clean up is a nightmare, in the air, around bedroom surfaces.
2: Place a plastic water bottle in the sunlight for days and take it to a water tester shop to determine if it is safe to drink. Or just drink it.
3: Look at any glass, wood or metal product, the quality across the spectrum seems and is better. No sharp or burred rims and edges, overall a higher grade of quality found with glass, metal and wood products.
But the plastic alternatives do have sharp or burred rims and edges, there seems to be no bloody quality control when it comes to plastic products in the majority.
Then there are the blended products, plastics break and decay first.
Go to any Kmart shop. Look, feel, buy it, regret it. Of course there are exceptions in each product range.
There is no way I will place any plastic outside for bee keeping here in Queensland.
And changing the way heat and humidity impacts our lives.
Thank you.
P.S Seems to be a typo for the second verification: Swet sticky liquid made by bees: is there swet or sweet?
Hi maxell,
good to have somebody else from Qld on the forum again.
Keep it up!
Meh, George Carland does a routine on plastic. It?s probably not family friendly but it?s not hard to find on YouTube.
maxell86, the following topic was not about plastic frames, but it was a conversation started by Max2 discussing plastic honey bottles as well as glass with recycling as a consideration. Maybe it will be of interest too you..
https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=57270.msg528708#msg528708
Cheers, Ben Framed.
I am sure one day we all won't take shortcuts.