It is unbelievable but we haven't had our first heavy frost yet! I have been busy and haven't done much with the bees in the last month(nor have I checked in on this message board). Now I am wondering if I should wrap my 2 hives with tarpaper or tack on 2" styrofoam to the sides or just leave them alone.
Our nights are now forecasted to regularly dip below the freezing point and our winters can have some cold snaps of -35C or so, with the off chance of meeting F at -40.
With this being said, I am wondering if any of the cold weather beekeepers don't bother wrapping their hives?
Id have to ask the same things some say yes others say no. Some say that it causes a moisture problem to wrap and the bees come out when its still too cold thinking its as warm outside as the inside and die when they leave the hive. Others say that it allows the cluster to move around inside the hive to relocate on the stores and lets the bees access the outer frames that are close to the outerpart of the hive. Another thing to consider is that the hives dont have much R value compared to the inside of a tree that might have 6 inches of wood to insulate the cluster but i dont know i wish i did know the answer maybe someone will give us some good advice . Chris
I've been using the Bee Cozys for 5 years and haven't had any problems at all. It's important to fold the wrap back at the top for proper ventilation. Also, I add a extra long dry wall screw about 2 inches above the entrance reducer to help keep the wrap from covering the opening.
I've got two commercial guys within about 15 miles of me that don't wrap their hives; really too many to wrap I suppose. They lost between 60% and 100% of their hives last winter. Obviously there is a lot of debate on what is BEST to do. You have to make up your own mind since we all do things a little differently, but you should do something!
Tar paper is going to add heat to your hive during sunny winter days and allow your bees to move to a new area of stores to prevent them from starving IF you have sunny days in the winter. My part of the Great Lakes region is cloudy most of the winter.
If you go with a good insulation job, it traps the bees heat inside the hive and keeps the bees from experiencing extreme cold day and night. However some argue that insulation also prevents the hive from getting warmed up on a warm sunny winter day; which is true.
Some have even played with electric heat in a hive to keep the bees from freezing. Most don't like that idea.
Ultimately you have to pick what you think is best for your climate or copy what any successful local bee keepers are doing.
Heres some info --pic topic our winter wraps-- http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/topics.htm (http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/topics.htm)
:lol: RDY-B
:shock: I'm amazed by Algonam weather in Canada!!. We had rain, sleet, snow and hail yesterday and 22 F this am.
I've done both wrapping and not, and had bees survive and thrive come Spring (even left a SBB wide open one winter and those bees became an awesome and productive colony, that was 'dumb' luck'), but I am convinced wrapping w/ tar paper reduces "wind" infiltration (a killer when temps, not just wind chill, can get to 35 below zero) and heats the hive during sunny periods as explained by bluebee.
As for moisture issues, I use notched inner cover 'Top' entrances w/ a 'vent box above that' I fill w/ dry sugar and place 2" ridged insulation on top, under telescopic cover. I wrap the hole thing with tar paper, vent box and all, leaving only the top (opening cut down to 1/2" max) and bottom (1/4" max) entries open.
Despite warnings (mice) I place hay all around my hives about half way up and when snow comes I'll cover w/ that as well. By Spring (if there's been a lot of snow) a cavity has formed around the 'survivor' hives but still provides protection from late Spring storms. I've taken off the tar paper later and later each year. This next season I'm waiting until the dandelions are in full bloom, around mid May. Better late than early, at least up here.
thomas
I do not wrap. I have in the past and really dont see a difference in survival. Last year I lost below 20%. Very exceptable in my book. I have about 200 hive bodies with 90 of them being used now. I paint dark colors not typical white. Colors like dark green and even black. I started doing this so they would blend in better but also saw the heat advantage. I can spot white hives a mile away. This far north we dont have to worry about summer heat so light colors are not important but on the sunny days in winter I think it makes a huge difference. I do insulate the tops with vented inner covers leaving a top and small bottom enterence. After I finish mite treatments I dont open them unless something tells me I have to. Things like low to no activity when there should be. By not messing with them by cold weather everything is glued tight.
Danno, that sounds like a pretty good idea; painting the hive a dark color for some winter solar gain in the north as opposed to fooling around wrapping a bunch of hives in tar paper.
The commercial guys with the big losses by me paint their hives white and don't wrap. However they make money at this, so they're not dummies when it comes to bees. They know how to make their system work for them even with high losses in the winter. I'm just a hobbyist so I can afford the time, effort, costs to baby my hives a little more.
I believe in wrapping but only if you take steps to allow top ventilation to lose the ten gallons or so of water your bees are going to produce by metabolism. In my experience the best winter wrap of all is your colony buried under six feet of snow until some time in march or april. A cavity the size of a 55 gallon drum melts in the snow and the bees do just fine til you liberate them or the top of the snow cave melts in and a cloud of bees appears over the drift. I would winter over 80 % this way in the early seventies when the bees would be from november to april without flight days. But those conditions sent most of the states commercial colonies to Texas.
I started using 4 way pallets for the first time this year. I dont move my bee's around much so I have always used single stands. This past winter a friend gave me a milk crate full of pallet clips for free so I came up with a size of 33 X 45 pallets and started building. I started a new small yard of 16 using these pallets. The boxes are close together but not touching. With just alittle snow and ice 2 sides of each will be sealed. With my vented insulated inner covers the snow never melts on top and by mid Dec I will have 1ft + snow covering the tops. These pallets are 5 inch high so the bottoms which are solid will be sealed from wind in no time. This only leaves each colony hive bodies exposed in front and one side. I will be keeping my fingers crossed. Not much else I can do
Last year I only put up wind breaks, and lost all. This year I stapled 1/4" insulating panels on the hives (two layers on a double nuc), and am going to wrap with roofing felt when it stops raining.
I use to wrap before switching to BeeMax polystyrene hives.
Here is some good info on wrapping from a well respected Canadian beek -> http://www.beeworks.com/informationcentre/wintering.html (http://www.beeworks.com/informationcentre/wintering.html)
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Best you can do in Canada is to use polystyrene boxes as brood box.
It pays back when spring build up is fast and the hive forage surplus earlier.
Tar paper has no meaning as insulator. Sun does not save your hives in winter in Canada.
Polystyrene hives have been in Europe over 20 yeas. In Canada they just begin to use them.
polystyre has 10 times better insulaton value than wood. It means that 15 mm styrene gives as good insulaton as 140 mm wood.
If you use open mesh floor in winter, who knows the value. At least wind comes in via floor.
I have fast bottoms. Main entrance is in winter 15 cm x 1 cm and upper entrance in front wall 15 mm. This is enough for ventilation.
Just now most of my hives has winter cluster.
I do not wrap hives but I keep a geotextile clothe on the hives. It close 3 walls and gives wind shelter, protect against snow and birds. My cottage yard is windy place and wind makes high heaps of snow in winter. Wintering under snow in my area is not so good as in open air.
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A few years ago Canada made a large wrapping material test. One of them was clearly best.
I suppose that Florida and California beekeepers have final anwer to that issue.
Robo; I completely agree, those folks at beeworks know how to keep bees in cold weather. And they've got a great queen rearing DVD too.
thomas
Finski, I looked up the weather in Helsinki and it looks pretty balmy over there still.
Have you taken a IR gun and measured the temperatures inside your poly hives?
Here's what I measured in one of my 3.8cm thick foam nucs the other night. It was -0.5C outside but 18C inside the hive. The bees are warming my foam hives 18C above the outside temps. My bees probably won't cluster until December.
(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Eight%20Frame%20Foam%20Nucs/Foam_Nuc_Oct28th.jpg)
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No, I do not measure hives. They are what they are.
Weather has been especially warm here. The reason is low pressures which have given rain more than enough. Often killing frost comes here 10.9 but it has not been here yet. Pumpkins caught cold a week ago.
Quote from: garys520 on October 27, 2011, 10:42:29 PM
I've been using the Bee Cozys for 5 years and haven't had any problems at all. It's important to fold the wrap back at the top for proper ventilation. Also, I add a extra long dry wall screw about 2 inches above the entrance reducer to help keep the wrap from covering the opening.
Bee cozy--- http://www.youtube.com/user/ebcorbett123#p/u/3/8qAnnRe96-s (http://www.youtube.com/user/ebcorbett123#p/u/3/8qAnnRe96-s) -- :) RDY-B
Quote from: T Beek on October 29, 2011, 07:06:18 AM
Robo; I completely agree, those folks at beeworks know how to keep bees in cold weather. And they've got a great queen rearing DVD too.
thomas
what i got out of it was they are in suport of wraping--RDY-B
Update Approximately 4 years ago I was off work sick and failed to completely wrap one yard. It had 16 hives, all of which were readied for winter in the usual fashion, ie. 3 boxes, lots of stores, young queens etc, the only difference between them was that 8 were left unwrapped. Once I was fit again I walked around the yard, deep in snow, the results were quite remarkable. It was a bright sunny day, warm out of the wind but the air temperature was still well below freezing point. The wrapped hives had bees at the top entrance and house cleaning was taking place around the bottom entrance, whereas the unwrapped looked dead and only the faint hum said they were still alive.
The real advantage was seen when we started working the hives. The wrapped hives took down their early feed much faster, and I commented at the time that they appeared to have more brood, as the rate of feed taken is a good indicator of brood feeding. When the weather warmed enough for us to start spring management the differences were really noticeable. The wrapped hives were far in advance of the unwrapped. They had more brood, were more frugal with the winter stores, had more adult bees, bottom boards were much cleaner, and generally the hives were better placed and ready for spring.
The cost of wrapping the hive in black tar paper is approximately $1.50 per hive, not much to avoid the death of a hive. Cost of replacing that hive, over $300, by the time you add the loss of that year's honey crop, replacement and the time and effort cleaning and repairing the hive and frames.
Quote from: Finski on October 29, 2011, 04:14:37 AM
.
Best you can do in Canada is to use polystyrene boxes as brood box.
It pays back when spring build up is fast and the hive forage surplus earlier.
Tar paper has no meaning as insulator. Sun does not save your hives in winter in Canada.
Polystyrene hives have been in Europe over 20 yeas. In Canada they just begin to use them.
polystyre has 10 times better insulaton value than wood. It means that 15 mm styrene gives as good insulaton as 140 mm wood.
If you use open mesh floor in winter, who knows the value. At least wind comes in via floor.
I have fast bottoms. Main entrance is in winter 15 cm x 1 cm and upper entrance in front wall 15 mm. This is enough for ventilation.
Just now most of my hives has winter cluster.
I do not wrap hives but I keep a geotextile clothe on the hives. It close 3 walls and gives wind shelter, protect against snow and birds. My cottage yard is windy place and wind makes high heaps of snow in winter. Wintering under snow in my area is not so good as in open air.
Finski, when you say that you use "fast bottoms" is that solid bottoms ?
Quote from: Finski on October 29, 2011, 04:23:53 AM
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A few years ago Canada made a large wrapping material test. One of them was clearly best.
I suppose that Florida and California beekeepers have final anwer to that issue.
could you provide us with this test so we can determine for ourselfs-or is this finish humor-- :lol:
RDY-B
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And california speaks.
Myself, I have been thinking about wrapping with the double sided foil bubble insulation. The reflectivity would return the heat generated by the hive, and the reflecting of the sun on other hives seems like another plus too. I have a nice straight line of 10 pallets of 4.
I am a little concerned about the times when the stuff is super bright from direct sunlight, so am considering not starting the wrap until I am above the entrance at what I think may be a comfortable level. Any thought or feelings anyone?....
For the cover, lots of neatly folded to size burlap that I hope will help absorb moisture, and a plastic trap tent to keep the burlap dry.
Any thoughts or feelings anyone?....
Joel
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Yes I mean with fast that solid. Is it a wrong word in this case?
I knew what you meant Finski, but yes "solid" would be a better English word in this case.
As for the foil bubble wrap idea. A couple things to keep in mind. The amount of energy the bees are generating in the winter is relatively small. Probably about 20 watts. While it is good to reflect the heat back into the hive, there just isn't much heat to begin with. This is why I like to insulate in my cloudy climate to retain what little heat there is.
If you live in a sunny winter climate like the plains, the options for winter hive heat are greater. You would have to look up the solar energy available at your latitude in the winter, but it's probably on the order of 50 watts per square foot. 4 hives in a cube would likely have about 4 sq feet incident to incoming solar radiation. 50 watts/sq foot x 4 sq feet = 200 watts. Hence a wrap might have the ability to harvest up near 200watts, or 10x what the bees can do. Not all that heat would actually make it to the bees as there are always losses in the system.
As Finski says, the wraps won't help the bees at night, but they may allow the bees to move from one area of depleted food to another during the day if you live in a sunny winter climate. It's cloudy where I am most all winter and hence I use foam hives; they work day and night holding in heat.
" they work day and night holding in heat "
Or cold...... ;)
thomas
Thanks for the input all!
Fortunately we do get a lot of sunshine here on the plains in winter normally. I realize the wrap itself does not have a lot of insulation value, but it will help cut the wind. Also, I think I can drape the burlap in a fashion that will help with the insulating as well, possibly even help absorb some moisture. I can go several folds thick so It's not like I'm just putting a burlap bag over the top.
Actually, my biggest concern about this set up is the bright reflectivity of any wrap showing. My bee's may need sunglasses or be blinded.
Joel
Proof again that all beekeeping is local.
thomas
Yes I do. The list of benefits is many. The list of negative effects is outweighed by far.
Just wrapping a hive with tar paper is better than nothing but in my opinion insulation is of much greater value. If you only wrap with felt at least you provide a wind barrier and a pocket of air to allow heat retention. The sun will heat the tar paper and give some benefit but days are very short in winter.
Insulation provides a much more stable temperature inside the hive. Im not a expert but I will guess that the harder the bees have to work to keep warm, the sooner they will perish. They also have to eat more and that means they have to poo more. If they are raising brood and have to consume more honey because they are not insulated, the greater the risk that they will become out of reach of honey when a cold snap hits and they are stuck on brood.
I just read a discussion on this forum or another about condensation. I as many are not convinced that condensation is a bad thing in the hive over the winter months. Bees need water to raise brood and when they cant make flights, where will they get it. Brood they raise will die if they dont have water. Finski will be the first one to tell you here about studies done in relation to feeding pollen patties to early before the bees can gather water resulting in dead brood. I have opened hives up as soon as a warm day pops up before the bees have had much time to fly and have found several frames packed full of brood in march. As much water that is needed for this much brood, I dont think it would be possible with the ventilate, ventilate, ventilate attitude preached for the north. I dont think condensation is the problem, its where it builds up and what happens with it when it melts.
Thats my dollars worth. It used to be two cents, but its 2011 and due to inflation of goods, and deflation of currency, I believe its a dollar now, not two cents.
To a specific point, the colder it gets the less the bees will consume. When our temps start getting/staying below zero my bees are barely moving, much less eating. Anyone have the available science to confirm? I think I've seen it here or it may have been another forum :-\
thomas
Quote from: bee-nuts on October 31, 2011, 04:21:50 AM
I just read a discussion on this forum or another about condensation. I as many are not convinced that condensation is a bad thing in the hive over the winter months. Bees need water to raise brood and when they cant make flights, where will they get it. Brood they raise will die if they dont have water. Finski will be the first one to tell you here about studies done in relation to feeding pollen patties to early before the bees can gather water resulting in dead brood. I have opened hives up as soon as a warm day pops up before the bees have had much time to fly and have found several frames packed full of brood in march. As much water that is needed for this much brood, I dont think it would be possible with the ventilate, ventilate, ventilate attitude preached for the north. I dont think condensation is the problem, its where it builds up and what happens with it when it melts.
Good point. I have yet to find a feral colony around here that doesn't seal up as much of the cavity as possible, leaving just and entrance (quite small in some cases). I also think a lot of folks contribute dead out to moisture because they are wet when they find them. When in reality even a dry hive will draw in tons of moisture when it dies.
I am always curious reading about the dead outs attributed to moisture.
With no experience wintering yet I am reluctant to dismiss the observations and statements of those that do have years, but.....
how are people determining that it was condensation dripping on the cluster that did them in? Are there clear tell tale signs that cannot be linked to moisture moving in later after the hive fails? Are they observing it to happen in processes?
I have come across a handful of people playing with plexi covers to answer this and they all seem to say they do not observe the dripping over the cluster. Admittedly it is just a handful of folks, and the plexi cover in and of itself slightly changes the conditions of the test.
IMO Local/regional beekeeping practices and observations are key. This is perhaps why some will swear by top entrances and other means to provide some ventilation over winter and others will insist it causes harm.
windfall; I think you're on the right track with this inquiry.
Bees do need water, but not too much water. Available moisture is largely a regional factor. I beleive moisture/water/condensation issues and the means to reduce or increase (?) same are more related to 'region' than any particular beekeeping philosophy/method (sadly, some will ague against that reality to the the point of useless :().
Its probably/likely the reason most beeks offering advise will always tell new beeks to pair up w/ local beeks/clubs (some just forget they were once new beeks I suppose).
thomas
Quote from: T Beek on October 31, 2011, 08:38:26 AM
To a specific point, the colder it gets the less the bees will consume. When our temps start getting/staying below zero my bees are barely moving, much less eating. Anyone have the available science to confirm? I think I've seen it here or it may have been another forum :-\
thomas
I agree with what you are saying--but this was put up when i tried to make a similar statement-what are your thoughts-???
http://www.apimondiafoundation.org/cgi-bin/index.cgi?sid=&zone=download&action=download_file&file_id=460&categ_id=80 (http://www.apimondiafoundation.org/cgi-bin/index.cgi?sid=&zone=download&action=download_file&file_id=460&categ_id=80)
Looks like Finski is right again!
If you read the paper that Derekm posted, it also shows bees eat MORE when cold. Another great reason to insulate.
OBSERVATIONS ON THE TEMPERATURE REGULATION
AND FOOD CONSUMPTION OF HONEYBEES
(APIS MELLIFERA)
BY J. B. FREE AND YVETTE SPENCER-BOOTH
Bee Research Department, Rothamsted Experimental Station
Their experiment showed that bees consume LESS stores when warm and MORE stores as they get colder.
"To a specific point, the colder it gets the less the bees will consume. When our temps start getting/staying below zero my bees are barely moving, much less eating. Anyone have the available science to confirm?"
TO A SPECIFIC POINT Then they consume more. That is why the farther north you get, the more honey is recommended to overwinter. If the bees are too warm they will consume to much honey because they will be to active. I dont have the data in front of be but the perfect temp is between 35 and 45 degrees I think. This is the temp where they are not to active yet do not need to consume tons of calories to maintain the maintain the cluster temps needed. I think the bee becomes paralyzed at 45 degrees, I know they cant fly at body temps bellow this. So anyway, the colder it gets beyond this perfect outside temp of 35-45, the harder it is on the bees, and the more honey they need to consume.
If your hives are insulated well, I dont think the bees have a hard time of it until the outside temp starts dipping below zero. Either way, if you have not insulated before, try insulating a couple and weigh them and ones you dont and come spring you will be amazed by how little the insulated ones consumed.
Quote from: BlueBee on October 31, 2011, 03:25:57 PM
Looks like Finski is right again!
If you read the paper that Derek posted, it also shows bees eat MORE when cold. Another great reason to insulate.
OBSERVATIONS ON THE TEMPERATURE REGULATION
AND FOOD CONSUMPTION OF HONEYBEES
(APIS MOLLIFIER)
BY J. B. FREE AND YVETTE SPENCER-BOOTH
Bee Research Department, Rothamsted Experimental Station
Their experiment showed that bees consume LESS stores when warm and MORE stores as they get colder.
thats what the paper reads--but i can find other papers and opinions-to the contrary-- ;)
as far as finski being right --his posts read middle of the road and seam to contradict themselves at times -i often
find myself pulling a *what he meant* meaning from them rather than how it reads-- :)
when bees reach extreme cold they are in a state of almost Hypoxia when they cluster--when bees dont cluster
they fly--what i now is if they fly the feed goes quick-there has to be a break even point for temp and cluster
funny thing is alot of signal wall hives that die in winter die die from starvation even with feed in the hive-but the paper would have us believe that the signal wall hive is eating more feed--- :) RDY-B
Quote from: BlueBee on October 31, 2011, 03:25:57 PM
Looks like Finski is right again!
If you read the paper that Derekm posted, it also shows bees eat MORE when cold. Another great reason to insulate.
OBSERVATIONS ON THE TEMPERATURE REGULATION
AND FOOD CONSUMPTION OF HONEYBEES
(APIS MELLIFERA)
BY J. B. FREE AND YVETTE SPENCER-BOOTH
Bee Research Department, Rothamsted Experimental Station
Their experiment showed that bees consume LESS stores when warm and MORE stores as they get colder.
yes i read that and it was done with caged bees so i dont care for it---
read the link i post it is done with bee colonys-and is a better explanation
and yes it backs the claim in the same fashion as your link---RDY-B
http://www.apimondiafoundation.org/cgi-bin/index.cgi?sid=&zone=download&action=download_file&file_id=460&categ_id=80 (http://www.apimondiafoundation.org/cgi-bin/index.cgi?sid=&zone=download&action=download_file&file_id=460&categ_id=80)
Yep, I read that link too Rdy-b, thanks.
I agree with you, the paper Derekm referenced is an odd way to measure honeybee food consumption vs temperature. I'm not sure why they didn't use more bees. However you have to admit that the results are surprising! Less food consumption all the way up to 35C. :shock:
My previous belief was the minimum food consumption would occur at a temperature just above where the bees cluster. Around that magic 18C number. When they do finally cluster, they are making heat and that takes a lot of energy and hence food.
I also agree with you that if bees are flying, they are by definition burning a lot of energy and eating stores. Flying takes a lot of energy. We don't have that problem in Michigan in the winter, but I can see how that would be a problem in California or North Carolina.
as posted elsewhere - its from the paper:Endothermic heat production in honeybee winter clusters Anton Stabentheiner and others 2002.
"Southwick (1983, 1988) and Southwick and Heldmaier(1987) showed that the oxygen consumption of winter clustersincreases as the ambient temperature decreases. The increase is moderate between approximately +10°C and –5°C and issteep below approximately –5°C to –10°C. In swarm clusters,the steep increase has already started at +10°C (Heinrich,1981). Oxygen consumption also increases with decreasing cluster size (Southwick, 1985). Therefore, the frequency and
intensity of endothermic heat production have to be assumed to increase with decreasing ambient temperature and cluster size. On the other hand, we suggest that at higher ambienttemperatures large (swarm) clusters that have come to rest (e.g. at night) may be able to largely reduce endothermy (Heinrich,1981)."
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#stopwrapping (http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#stopwrapping)
"Although we now and again have to put up with exceptionally severe winters even here in the south-west, we do not provide our colonies with any additional protection. We know that cold, even severe cold, does not harm colonies that are in good health. Indeed, cold seems to have a decided beneficial effect on bees."--Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey, Brother Adam
"Nothing has been said of providing warmth to the colonies, by wrapping or packing hives or otherwise, and rightly so. If not properly done, wrapping or packing can be disastrous, creating what amounts to a damp tomb for the colony" --The How-To-Do-It book of Beekeeping, Richard Taylor
Quote from: Michael Bush on November 01, 2011, 09:12:26 AM
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#stopwrapping (http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#stopwrapping)
"Although we now and again have to put up with exceptionally severe winters even here in the south-west, we do not provide our colonies w.........-Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey, Brother Adam
"Nothing has been said of providing warmth to the colonies, by wrapping or packing hives or otherwise, and rightly so. If not properly done, wrapping or packing can be disastrous, creating what amounts to a damp tomb for the colony" --The How-To-Do-It book of Beekeeping, Richard Taylor
Brother Adam lived in the warmest place in England. The open sea and Gulf Stream surrounds the area. Winter is very short. Vegetation is exceptionally southern. Hivemaker -in beekeeping forum UK, lives very near the Adam's place.
Yes, Brother Adam or any Englishmen are bad to talk about "severe winter". It means -10C in their categories. It is very rare that pond get ice cover at all in winter.
Snowfall may stay on ground couple of days.
But let's go to Canada. Our Teemu Selänne played in Winnibeg hockey And I have followed their winter. -40 C is not rare but in Finland it is.
I looked T Beek's winter figure. Their average winter is several degrees colder than we have in south Finland.
To survive over winter the big feature is that in England bees may come out every month to empty their gut. Here bees stay inside 5 months and in cellar wintering from Ochtober up to early May. It makes 7 months.
If we think about nosema, it helps if bees can empty their cut or does it work in the gut 7 months.
Nosema is my biggest enemy in wintering. It does not kill but it spoils queens' ability to lay with full strength.
Just now in England bees carry pollen from ivy. Here last pollen loads came in two months ago. If hives are in forest pastures, the last pollen loads come in 3 months ago in the beginning of August.
Quote from: Michael Bush on November 01, 2011, 09:12:26 AM
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#stopwrapping (http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#stopwrapping)
...
"The bees have lived for millions of years with no heaters and no help"
and I add without our hinderance and neglect...
A bees choice of tree cavity (seeley and morse 1976) means it has 8 times the insulation of a wooden beehive and is capable of keeping it all at a snug 18C when the outside temp is -10C...
Quote from: derekm on November 01, 2011, 02:30:25 PM
"The bees have lived for millions of years with no heaters and no help"
and without tar paper.....
a humans has lived 4 million years without electrict light and without motorways....strange!
I looked T Beek's winter figure. Their average winter is several degrees colder than we have in south Finland.
this i found very interesting so i looked at a site that speaks about the whether in finland
jumping catfish--- dont look that bad Ehhh--
http://goscandinavia.about.com/od/weatherinscandinavia/ss/weatherfinland.htm (http://goscandinavia.about.com/od/weatherinscandinavia/ss/weatherfinland.htm)
Quote from: rdy-b on November 01, 2011, 11:32:41 PM
I looked T Beek's winter figure. Their average winter is several degrees colder than we have in south Finland.
this i found very interesting so i looked at a site that speaks about the whether in finland
jumping catfish--- dont look that bad Ehhh--
http://goscandinavia.about.com/od/weatherinscandinavia/ss/weatherfinland.htm (http://goscandinavia.about.com/od/weatherinscandinavia/ss/weatherfinland.htm)
These are our average monthly here in Michigan. They are almost exactly the same as Finland
Michigan
Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec
Avg. High 28° 32° 42° 56° 67° 76° 81° 78° 70° 58° 46° 34°
Avg. Low 16° 16° 24° 34° 44° 52° 57° 57° 50° 41° 32° 21°
Finland
Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec
High 27 25 32 43 57 66 72 68 59 46 37 30
Low 16 14 19 30 39 48 55 54 46 37 30 23
Those look like 'State averages' rather than regional.
Not to sure about Finland or Michigan but the difference in temps and/or weather between Milwaukee in the south and Hayward/Cable in the N/W part of Wisconsin is like two different worlds w/ two different ecosystems. Our winters in Northwest Wisconsin are nearly two months longer than S/E Wisconsin as I'm sure Michigan's Upper Peninsula is considerably different when compared with Detroit.
Funny the changes several hundred miles can make, much less thousands, which when fully considered can also make the differences in beekeeping methods, techniques and philosophy more palatable to other beekeepers. We can only hope :-D
IMO differences are a good thing :)
thomas
Quote from: T Beek on November 02, 2011, 10:37:29 AM
Those look like 'State averages' rather than regional.
Not to sure about Finland or Michigan but the difference in temps and/or weather between Milwaukee in the south and Hayward/Cable in the N/W part of Wisconsin is like two different worlds w/ two different ecosystems. Our winters in Northwest Wisconsin are nearly two months longer than S/E Wisconsin as I'm sure Michigan's Upper Peninsula is considerably different when compared with Detroit.
Funny the changes several hundred miles can make, much less thousands, which when fully considered can also make the differences in beekeeping methods, techniques and philosophy more palatable to other beekeepers. We can only hope :-D
IMO differences are a good thing :)
thomas
Hayward The muskie capital of the world. I am originally from Wisc. 25 years in Fond du Lac, Antigo and Eagle River You are right and I can tell you Wisc. is much colder that this side of the lake. My Michigan temps are Ludington averages.
Nothing quite like a muskie (steak) caught through a hole in the ice. Mmmm-mmm.
thomas
Quote from: T Beek on November 02, 2011, 10:37:29 AM
Those look like 'State averages' rather than regional.
Not to sure about Finland or Michigan but the difference in temps and/or weather between Milwaukee in the south and Hayward/Cable in the N/W part of Wisconsin is like two different worlds w/ two different ecosystems. Our winters in Northwest Wisconsin are nearly two months longer than S/E Wisconsin as I'm sure Michigan's Upper Peninsula is considerably different when compared with Detroit.
Funny the changes several hundred miles can make, much less thousands, which when fully considered can also make the differences in beekeeping methods, techniques and philosophy more palatable to other beekeepers. We can only hope :-D
IMO differences are a good thing :)
thomas
4 miles can mean 1 metre rainfaill and 5C of temperature difference, in the UK.... I've lived in a place with heavy and snowfall only 4 miles from where its mostly dry and sunny and warm.... 4 miles away a damp mild wet winters day, where I was a metre of snow and freezing hard.
.
derekm , you mean 4 miles upwards. I have never thought that
K1 is in Britain?
Quote from: Finski on November 02, 2011, 06:57:47 PM
.
derekm , you mean 4 miles upwards. I have never thought that
K1 is in Britain?
This was actually at 150m above the sea but with 1000m mountain another 2 miles away. The strong North westerly winds make the flat island of Anglesey mild and warm they hit the hills and go up chill and drop rain and snow. The bad weather piles up in front of the mountain, like the bow wave on a ship. You end up with the weather of much higher up on relatively low altitude hill...
K2? no Everest... They trained for the first successful ascent of Everest within 5 miles of this location...
Here's a quote from the article that can be found at http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/solar_heating.htm (http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/solar_heating.htm)
"We, therefore, studied the impact of solar heating by covering hives with Infra-Red Polyethylene (PE)-sheets during the winter . . . on:
hive temperature;
colony population;
spring honey production. "
"Brood area size in PE-covered hives increased by 59.2% (+ 2290 cm2) during the experimental period, but it went down by 8.4% (- 504 cm2) in non-covered hives (P=0.05). Adult bee population in PE-covered hives increased by 37.5% (3.8 occupied frames) during the winter, versus only 11.8% (1.8 occupied frames) in non-covered hives."
So, if you do insulate, you will wind up wil less stores being consumed (that die out might just have made it if you insulated), a higher internal hive temperature, more brood, faster increase in brood area size, faster colony population build-up, and more spring honey per colony. . .
Here's what I believe:
You may be able to get a hive through the winter without any insulation, however, if you insulate, they will not go through as much stores. That starved hive might just have made it.
Here's mine:
(http://home.comcast.net/~k_haas/home/hivewrap.JPG)
Thank you all for your replies.....(I am the original poster)
Many opinions, and from what I am learning, many decisions on this subject are based on regional climate.
In my case I`ve decided to insulate the 2 hives with styrofoam on all 6 sides if possible and leave a small front entrance and a small breather hole near the cover. Front is facing East and prevailing winds come from the Northwest.
:) :) :) :)