This will be my first winter as a beekeeper.
I've decided to attach styrofoam to the 4 sides of the hives, then staple tarpaper over top.
For venting, my inner covers have 2 knotches on the back and one knotch in the front. This is the same for the other hive as well. These knotches are large enough for bees to come and go one at a time.
The questions are:
1. Is this too much venting?
2. What size opening do I leave at bottom entrance?
3. Should the tarpaper and styrofoam cover over any of the vents?
It sounds like you're trying to both capture some winter time solar gain on sunny days and hold the heat at night with the insulation on the sides. An admiral goal I will admit.
As for your questions.
It doesn't sound like too much venting to me. I like to keep my vents (top entrances in my case) out of the prevailing winds. Hence my hives face East. If you have a vent on both sides, you may want to add a wind block to the prevailing wind side to prevent wind from howling through the top cover to blowing heat out.
For an entrance, I limit mine to about 9mm x 35mm. If you go too big you promote a chimney effect in the hive. If you go too small, the bees can't get out or the air becomes stagnant.
Should the foam or tar cover any vents? Maybe the vent facing the prevailing winds.
.
First winter....
If you have solid floor, put the hive so that floor is slanting and water on floor drills out.
One hole in front wall is good. Others are harmfull.(let heat out)
how much insulation in inner cover? It should better than side walls that condensation does not happen in inner cover.
Then mouse net .... About 6 mm hole diameter
stryrofoam on sides is splended. Tar paper is not needed. It is better that gap between styrofoam and hive wall is a bit ventilated.
Perhaps tarpaper protects that ice does not attach on styrofoam, like icy rain.
I don't see much point to tar paper over the foam I would do one or the other (but I don't see how both could hurt).
Tar paper blocks wind and some argue gives the hive solar gain for store moving and cleansing flights on those sunny calm days. It can't give the hive solar gain through the insulation, and the foam will block the wind.
Quote from: windfall on October 29, 2011, 07:04:45 PM
I don't see much point to tar paper over the foam I would do one or the other (but I don't see how both could hurt).
me either. During my 49 beekeeping years I have used it in one year.
It has been "must" here in Finland too. Now with polyhives many keeps only piece of plywood to protect entrance from snow and direct wind.
hold a bottle that has a hole at the top vertically upright under water does it fill with water?
will your hive fill with cold air and the heat escape even though you have a small lower entrance.?
I just reread the OP.
If you are insulating the sides I would most definitely insulate the top equally or more.
.
Alnonam, what is the structure of your inner cover? Material and insulation layes? Breaths or not, feeding holes or else?
Quote from: windfall on October 29, 2011, 08:25:22 PM
I just reread the OP.
If you are insulating the sides I would most definitely insulate the top equally or more.
this is very important point you make- ;) RDY-B
Finski,
2 hives. My first year. Hives are 1" pine with solid bottom boards. Hives are on 18" high hive stands. Behind hives is a wall of mature Spruce, Balsam and cedar trees. This is the prevailing wind side (NW). Hive entrances face East.
Inner cover is pine with 3" hole in ctr for feeding. Outer covers are solid.
2 vent holes in upper rear. 1 vent hole upper front. Vent holes are large enough for 1 bee at a time. The entrance has been reduced to approx 1/2" x 2".
After reading the above comments I am now thinking I may just insulate with the pink ridgid styrofoam with a small shim in between the sides and the insulation for breathability and put 2 layers on the roof.
Also, I am thinking about taping over the 2 rear vents and leaving the front upper vent open. I expect I should cut out the venting and entrance(from the foam)
We don't get enough snow to cover the hives as they sit close to 40" high. Snow coverage is usually 2' unless we've just been dumped on by a warmer storm from the South or the East. It eventaully settles back to approx 2'.
Over the last 3 nights we have just received our first heavy frosts-late for us. Current temps are above freezing during day and below at night (typical). No snow yet, even though some of you South of here are getting it!
Any and all recommendations are appreciated!
.
What about varroa? What have you done or are you going with trickling?
IMO Having holes on 'opposing sides' can/will create cross-draft over top of bees. Not a good thing for bees trying to generate heat and stay warm I'm afraid. Personally I wouldn't insulate anything other than Top, but that's just me. Too much insulation can have the opposite effect of 'keeping inside cold" especially during extreme conditions (a week or two of minus 35F), forcing bees to work hard to maintain temps. There are some who will disagree with this opinion but chances are they may also be heating their hives w/ electricity or performing other duties.
And let the debate continue........... ;)
Entrances or holes, particularly during winter should always be on the "same side" to prevent cross-drafts IMO. I'd suggest plugging up the back side. One top exit/entry will allow enough condensation and bee gas to escape. For my own hives I use both top and bottom entries, both on the same side. I reduce bottom entry to smallest hole and Top to 1/4 -1/2 " Other beeks do different things and that's not necessarily bad or good, just different 8-)
thomas
[quote author=T Beek link=topic=35173.msg291959#msg291959 date=1319981096
. Too much insulation can have the opposite effect of 'keeping inside cold" especially during extreme conditions (a week or two of minus 35F), forcing bees to work hard to maintain temps.
- I have nevet met too much insulation
- you do not understand about energy saving or insulation a bit. Stop writing now.
There are some who will disagree with this opinion but chances are they may also be heating their hives
- höpö höpööö
And let the debate continue........... ;)
- more true knowledge PLEASE
Quote from: T Beek on October 30, 2011, 10:24:56 AM
There are some who will disagree with this opinion but chances are they may also be heating their hives w/ electricity or performing other duties.
And let the debate continue........... ;)
I'm all debated out for this month :-D
.
You cannot win stupid person with debating.
So sorry, i forget that the finski "knows it all" :roll: Nor can you win a debate with name calling. That belongs on the playground not here.
thomas
Quote from: T Beek on October 30, 2011, 11:26:47 AM
So sorry, i forget that the finski "knows it all" :roll: Nor can you win a debate with name calling. That belongs on the playground not here.
thomas
yes I know much. I have had time to learn.
there are two kind of persons: voice and echo
MEAN old FINNMAN- :) -RDY-B
enten
tenten it is a finish counting song-much the same as enie meenie minne moo-childern use it to pick who is it
teelika
menten Anna Falchi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcpoI0vYImI#)
hissun
kissun
vaapula
vissun
eelin
keelin
klot
viipula
vaapula
vot
eskon
saun
piun
paun
nyt
mä
lähden
tästä
pelistä
pois
puh
pah
pelistä
pois
Two kinds of persons? Sounds more like a limitation to me. Perhaps you meant seekers and suckers?
With all that experience one should know that "All beekeeping is local." To simply condemn others for successfully keeping bees in ways that oppose your own philosophy is infantile and serves little purpose other than to stroke ones own ego.
I find it more and more difficult to believe anything finski says anymore :'(.
Xin Loi. (time to close this one down I think/hope)
thomas
.
Boys, when did you last check your medication?
hey read this
OBSERVATIONS ON THE TEMPERATURE REGULATION
AND FOOD CONSUMPTION OF HONEYBEES
(APIS MELLIFERA)
BY J. B. FREE AND YVETTE SPENCER-BOOTH
Bee Research Department, Rothamsted Experimental Station
Quote from: derekm on October 30, 2011, 06:13:15 PM
hey read this
OBSERVATIONS ON THE TEMPERATURE REGULATION
AND FOOD CONSUMPTION OF HONEYBEES
(APIS MELLIFERA)
BY J. B. FREE AND YVETTE SPENCER-BOOTH
Bee Research Department, Rothamsted Experimental Station
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/35/4/930.full.pdf (http://jeb.biologists.org/content/35/4/930.full.pdf)
1958-- :) i will read it --RDY-B
and im suposed to learn what from this magnitude of wasted time they spent --RDY-B
Finski: You really should try to be more polite to others, your posts leave me with little respect for you because of your attitude.
All:
FACT: Heat always moves to cold. Cold does not move to hot.
That being said, solar gain from the sun would still move .... even through insulation albeit slowed... into the hive. The ball heat of the hive will always be trying to exit until the exterior temperature is greater than that of the interior. That exit can be in any direction, usually the direction of the greatest temperature differential.
Therefore the hive can get 'heat' from the sun on a dark surface.
I would not use tarpaper and foam Both are perfect impermeable barriers, they will hold moisture from the bees respiration process inside the hive, and since it is warm in the hive, the air will hold more moisture. As this warm moist air rises with normal convection and moves up to the top of the hive, there comes a point where the dew point is reached and condensation will form. By insulating the sides or top enough to allow the inside of the hive to not reach the dewpoint, there will be no condensation, the moisture will exit with the natural ventilation of the hive. How much ventilation I still am yet to learn. Those are some darn hard cold facts folks about the way insulation and venting works. Been that way forever.
Yes if you use foam provide a less than 1/8" airspace between the foam and the hive side. This will effectively double the R-value of the foam.
Remember the ultimate goal is to prevent heat loss from the ball so they use less resources to survive the winter.
I know I am barely a beginner, but insulation was my business for many years, I know this topic regardless if it involves bees or not. Sadly I hope the original poster is still reading and has not gone away because of the petty bickering.
Jack
X:X X:X
Quote from: rdy-b on October 30, 2011, 07:21:26 PM
and im suposed to learn what from this magnitude of wasted time they spent --RDY-B
Then try this - its from the paper:Endothermic heat production in honeybee winter clusters Anton Stabentheiner and others 2002.
"Southwick (1983, 1988) and Southwick and Heldmaier (1987) showed that the oxygen consumption of winter clusters increases as the ambient temperature decreases. The increase is moderate between approximately +10°C and –5°C and is steep below approximately –5°C to –10°C. In swarm clusters, the steep increase has already started at +10°C (Heinrich, 1981). Oxygen consumption also increases with decreasing cluster size (Southwick, 1985). Therefore, the frequency and intensity of endothermic heat production have to be assumed to increase with decreasing ambient temperature and cluster size. On the other hand, we suggest that at higher ambient temperatures large (swarm) clusters that have come to rest (e.g. at night) may be able to largely reduce endothermy (Heinrich, 1981)."
This means the colder it gets the more food they eat per bee, until you kill them... Then they eat no more.
yes oxygen consumption goes up and carbon dioxide is produced--and bees* regulate metabolism*
with a condition of* hypoxia*--RDY-B
Hypoxia-Controlled Winter Metabolism in Honeybees (Apis mellifera)
Experiments during three winters have revealed a metabolism controlling function of bee-induced hypoxia in the winter cluster. Permanent low oxygen levels around 15% were found in its core. This hypoxia was actively controlled, probably via indirect mechanisms. Varying ambient oxygen levels demonstrated a causal relationship between lowered oxygen and reduced metabolic rate (MR). Under deeper ambient hypoxia the bees switched to ultra low MR (ULMR), optional-occasional at 15% oxygen, obligatory at 7.5% oxygen. This dormancy status resembled deep diapause in insects. It stayed reversible after at least several days, and was terminated under normal oxygen at 15°C. Reduced MR via core-hypoxia is essential in water conserving thermoregulation of the wintering cluster. It allows bees to reconcile warm wintering in alert state—for defence of stores—with energy saving and longevity. Two further hypotheses discussed are that winter MR of bees might be related to insect diapause, and that in-body hypoxia might be functional in insect diapause.