Brand new to beekeeping. Planning to have 2 hives in my backyard this spring. I've read some and been to some classes and I have some questions, if you don't mind.
the main one for now is: what are the reported advantages of unlimited broodnest?
the class I was at taught two deeps, several honey supers, and a queen excluder. I get that. I also understand the how of ULBN. But not the why? If it is a matter of leaving enough stores for the bees to overwinter, then why not have 3 deeps? Basically not clear as to what problems ULBN is trying to overcome.
Thanks
Rick
Chicagoland
I dont use queen excluders and run 4 deeps sometimes. I hardly ever have brood above the second deep box. There are a few that run 3 for winter stores. I see nothing wrong with it. I am not sure why folks do it year round except just to ensure they have enough winter stores.
Some uncommon practices is to run 2 queens per vertical colony. Using this configuration it is my understanding its critical to have 3 deep brood boxes and this is to have super strong colonies for running honey. I say its uncommon because I think if you have 2 good queens in seperate colonies you will bring in just as much or more honey than 2 queens per vertical colony.
BMAC:
sorry, I am a little obtuse. Bear with me.
Are you saying you don't use an excluder because it offers no advantage? Kind of a "having more things means more things can go wrong" idea?
Thanks
RickB
The bees know what they need. All the excluder does is slow the bees down and block the queen from laying where she needs to. We harvest honey only from the stores section of the hive (honey-only frames) so we don't have to worry about brood mixed in with the honey. I really don't know what an excluder is supposed to accomplish.
Take those nice, new, shiny excluders and throw them in the scrap pile. I am currently running 26 hives, double deep hive bodies. I have yet to have brood in my honey supers. It's just one more piece of equipment the suppliers want you to spend your money on.
Wow! I'm shocked.
For a piece of equipment that has been around for many years, I'm surprised by the number of folks that don't know what they are used for.
Excluders are used for keeping the queen from entering certain areas of the hive. Like comb production areas if your are doing cut comb or comb honey production, in supers you want to take off in the earlier part of the season after the main flow or for specific honey varietals, and even nuc production, to name a few.
lenape....you must be really lucky. I'm not sure how many beekeepers could place supers on 26 hives, and honestly NEVER have had a queen go up into the supers. I've had it happen many times. I only wish I could get those results.
Since I do not harvest or chase pipe dreams of some 50 pound fall crop, I like to take my supers off way earlier than September or October. I favor getting my bees ready for winter way earlier than most. So I don't like to have brood through 6 or 7 boxes in a "chimney" effect.
Keeping brood out of your supers also has the added benefit of not dealing with wax moths. They really favor comb that has raised brood, and almost always ignore lighter comb. It is much easier to "open" stack supers and never need to add chemicals for comb protection.
An queen excluder works great if you step out of the box of what others tell you in books, etc. I love the plastic excluders, turned sideways, in conjunction with upper entrances above the excluder. Never could I say that excluders "slow down" bees, if used effectively.
I think if your just going to place a queen excluder in the traditional manner, stack on supers, and do nothing else to make them more effective than that, then yes, you should forego any purchase of queen excluders. But for a bunch of resourceful beekeepers, I am sure we can do better than that.
I don't always use them. But I find them to be very useful from time to time. Even for nontraditional uses, like shaking queens out, isolating a queen to find where in the hive she is for splitting, etc.
Don't scrap them. I'll take them off your hands. I know how to use them. :-D
"I'm surprised by the number of folks that don't know what they are used for."
"An queen excluder works great if you step out of the box of what others tell you in books, etc."
Good for you. I agree. I know how to use them.
For traction when your truck gets stuck in mud.
Cooking grill over a campfire. "metal excluders only"
Mouse guards in winter.
Forgetting they are on a hive and keeping the queen from going up in winter with the cluster. "guaranteeing a new queen in spring"
air drying fruit and veggies.
and the list goes on. They are quite handy, so never waste them on a beehive.
BjornBee hit it. I should have elaborated a little more. I do use and have a few hundred excluders. I just dont use them all the time and seldom use them during a honey flow.
I like to put supers on only when they need it and I like to take them off immediately when the flow is done. This for the most part saves me from the chimeny effect described by BjornBee. They are invaluable when making splits and playing with queens.
Quote from: iddee on January 26, 2012, 04:08:18 PM
Forgetting they are on a hive and keeping the queen from going up in winter with the cluster. "guaranteeing a new queen in spring"
:-D Funniest thing I've read today. Thanks iddee.
I have used excluders to help find queens, and keep her from getting into supers for cut comb. They are a handy tool when you need them. I don't have a problem with the chimney effect, because I don't stack supers unless needed, and I get them off before the Golden Rod.
You have had some uses for excluders listed above :-D I personally don't put it on a hive during honey flow. I believe in free roaming queens-- having an excluder on to me just adds to possible swarming issues. But as said above wax moth like frames brood has been in. Especially if you do not know how to use them properly and I probably don't.
Isolate supers on a hive and go back to look for eggs -- thus queen in that super yes. I see that use.
Get truck stuck in mud out --- think I will start carrying a few around for that purpose.
Get a couple and see if they fit your style..... then buy more or scrap them.
RickB, in reading this forum you will see that there are Beeks that 'love' and 'hate' excluders, all for good reasons. If they work for your bees, then feel free to use them.
As far as why no third deep, the only thing someone said to me was "at 1,000 eggs laid a day by a queen, 21,000 is the max brood cells needed per colony". I have never been curious enough to figure out just how many cells there are in 8 to 9 sides of a deep frame, let alone the shape of a colony of bees. :lau:
anyway, Welcome to the forum and to beeking. Talk with you again. -Mike
Quote from: FRAMEshift on January 26, 2012, 10:54:23 PM
Quote from: iddee on January 26, 2012, 04:08:18 PM
Forgetting they are on a hive and keeping the queen from going up in winter with the cluster. "guaranteeing a new queen in spring"
:-D Funniest thing I've read today. Thanks iddee.
It should be noted for the casual reader that the new queen will not be your own, unless your talking about the one you just purchased. ;)
An queen excluder works great if you step out of the box of what others tell you in books, etc.
I can't agree less... and all books tell you to use queen excluders between bodies and supers so the queen does not go up in there. i think it is time to think outside the box and the bee school !
i own few queen includers, no queen excluder. Abscounding new packages happen sometimes.
Quote from: organicfarmer on January 27, 2012, 06:10:29 PM
... and all books tell you to use queen excluders between bodies and supers so the queen does not go up in there.
...not _all_ books, Jean Claude :)
deknow
Quote from: deknow on January 27, 2012, 08:40:29 PM
...not _all_ books, Jean Claude :)
deknow
Right! Here's the book we recommend to all our customers.
http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Idiots-Guide-Beekeeping/dp/1615640118 (http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Idiots-Guide-Beekeeping/dp/1615640118)
All the comb honey books I've read and had recommended and presentations by Lloyd Spears of Ross Rounds say not to use an excluder. That would include Taylor's, The Comb Honey Book; Both Killion's (Carl and Gene), Honey in the comb; and Lloyd spears in a live presentation. I would not recommend it.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesulbn.htm (http://www.bushfarms.com/beesulbn.htm)
Unlimited brood nest involves several concepts, only one of which is not using an excluder. Others are based on Doolittle's "millions in the bank" principle (having more stores in the spring for the buildup) and, with or without an excluder, getting the queen laying in multiple boxes.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfeeding.htm#stimulativefeeding (http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfeeding.htm#stimulativefeeding)