The title may not be worded in the best manner but what I am asking is this;How do the keeping practices of a commercial operation fair when managing a small number say 10 or less hives? I understand there that there are many ways to get from A to Z however I dont yet know what I dont know. There are several commercial keepers in my local club that want to "show me the ropes" but I just dont know if the way a 500 plus hive operation runs the same as a 10 or less one and I would like to hear the consensus.
They did not become commercial beeks by doing it wrong. My advice is to ask, listen, and learn. You will soon be making your own decisions of what is right for your bees.
First....what is your definition of a "commercial" beekeeper.
If it includes loading your bees up 10 or more times per year and moving them about in stressful situations, traditionally using 30 year old comb, placing them on mono-agriculture limiting their diet, replacing natural food with patties and corn syrup, using illegal chemicals and treating many more times that is needed to pass any border crossings, stacking a thousand hives all next together in holding yards (disease transfer) and buying bulk queen cells from the same breeder and genetic material, to name a few....than that is a migratory commercial beekeeper. Each one of those things I just mentioned are part of most commercial migratory operations. To suggest they must be doing everything right for the mere fact they are "commercial" beekeepers, completely ignores some of the advice and recommendations on combating CCD. Like proper nutrition, lowering stress, keeping bees away from certain chemicals, etc. All associated with commercial operations. If those items were not true, there would be no need for recommendations. :roll:
500 hives is a rather small size operation for commercial operations. Maybe they are more tentative, and keep bees differently. Perhaps they provide pollination services locally, and do things a bit different.
I could name many items that are different between commercial and backyard beekeepers.
The mere fact that you asked that questions, begs to distinguish the difference between commercial and hobbyist beekeepers. Once you find out what commercial beekeepers do, then you need to ask yourself if you want or need to do what they do. I am sure that your less than 10 operation will be drastically different than the commercial guys.
Most bee clubs have been traditionally headed by the "elder' of the group, or the most knowledgeable by standards of the past. So commercial guys have always been part of the education of new beekeepers. Today, many things have changed. The old adage of prophylactic treatments, and other advice given at beginner courses and bee clubs have been changing. Beekeeper today want to discuss comb rotation, keeping chemicals out of the hives, and many IPM strategies that the large operators either do not want to do, or it is just not feasible for their operations due to cost and other factors. I have seen bee association Presidents openly scoff at the idea of anyone keeping bees in a TBH.
Soak up what advice you can. There is probably much to learn. But I reserve my opinion against any outright call for commercial beekeepers to teach the next generation of beekeepers. ;)
My first mentor was a commercial beek back in 1978 and he taught me so much, but I am so impressed with BjornBee that I will say nothing. He (BjornBee) does seem to know it all.
learn all that you can from everyone so that you have enough knowledge to develop your own plan. what works for one, may not work for another, but it takes some time to figure that out. the more you learn, the more you can adapt.
Quote from: kathyp on January 27, 2012, 02:52:54 PM
learn all that you can from everyone so that you have enough knowledge to develop your own plan. what works for one, may not work for another, but it takes some time to figure that out. the more you learn, the more you can adapt.
Ditto that. I've learned a great deal from commerical beekeepers, but I learned also they don't
have the luxury of time as I do, with my hives in my back yard. For example, they will pile on the supers during a flow, because they have many yards to get too. I can watch what is going on daily, and add as needed. Pick their brains, they have a wealth of knowledge.
I called my commercial beekeeper colleague earlier this week to compare notes. I don't handle my bees the way he does, and he doesn't handle his bees the way I do, and we recognize this. But there are still things we talk about, and I find him a great reference.
Thanks for the replys.
Quote from: Rich V on January 27, 2012, 03:14:24 PM
Quote from: kathyp on January 27, 2012, 02:52:54 PM
learn all that you can from everyone so that you have enough knowledge to develop your own plan. what works for one, may not work for another, but it takes some time to figure that out. the more you learn, the more you can adapt.
Ditto that. I've learned a great deal from commerical beekeepers, but I learned also they don't
have the luxury of time as I do, with my hives in my back yard. For example, they will pile on the supers during a flow, because they have many yards to get too. I can watch what is going on daily, and add as needed. Pick their brains, they have a wealth of knowledge.
Ditto and not ALL commerical beekeepers or ALL backyard beekeepers do good practices.
Just my $0.02
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
**There are several commercial keepers in my local club that want to "show me the ropes" but I just dont know if the way a 500 plus hive operation runs the same as a 10 or less one and I would like to hear the consensus.**
sounds like a good club to me- :lol: they must see a deserving interest in you-there time is valuable and if they will
open opportunities by all means make friends and learn -there will be things that you will learn not to do and much
insight to be gained-lots of knowledge to go around some good some bad--enjoy the journey--RDY-B
I know sometimes certain people push buttons but i feel a certain few are very knowledgable as well
Quote from: rdy-b on January 28, 2012, 02:44:21 AM
sounds like a good club to me- :lol: they must see a deserving interest in you-there time is valuable and if they will
open opportunities by all means make friends and learn -there will be things that you will learn not to do and much
insight to be gained-lots of knowledge to go around some good some bad--enjoy the journey--RDY-B
I met them 2 years ago and they were super nice and excited younger (38 then lol) people wanted to learn beekeeping. We were set to get started then my little brother's health declined and he passed so all non essential thing went on indefinite hold.Its been a year since his passing and I still want the bees and am at a point where I am ready to begin again. The club understood and have welcomed me back as if nothing has changed so yeah I would rate them as super nice people, true salt of the earth folks.
My question was more academic and hope that it has not ruffled a few feathers. The written word is hard to discern without body language and inflection of the voice and can sound harsher than it was meant too so in the spirit of friendship I want to thank everyone for their thoughts on the matter. It would very boring if we all agreed on everything and we would get the same results everytime never knowing if there were another way that may be more conducive to each persons individual goals.
Sorry to hear of your younger brothers passing.
There are reasons why commercial beeks do some things different than the backyarder.Most have to do with time and efficiency.And as with any large operations there are always a few unscrupulous practices out there.
But do not be afraid do adopt sound practices that make sense.The advantage of being a smaller beekeeper is that you have more time to spend with each hive and diagnose individual problems. Where a commercial beekeeper may just write off a hive that needs any personal attention.
Spend your first year opening up that hive and looking inside as it grows.( Once a week is probably sufficient).Getting two hives going is great for comparison and you can have some shared resources. As far as a package and a nuc, the nus is already established where as raising a package gives you insight to how a swarm propagates from the beginning.
Don't be afraid to ask questions,because a lot of them will arise.And be sure to include your general location in your profile,as that may be more important than whether its a commercial or smaller operation.
And remember,if things don't work out the first time through,it happens sometimes. You are dealing with livestock.
Happy keeping,and welcome to the Beemaster forum.
i have a verry good friend that is a retired comercial bee keeper and it sure is good to have his brain to pick. always remember that he has seen in one yr the problems you wont get exposed to in a lifetime. thank the good lord the big hearted sucker is so free hearted with his knowledge that he has acumulated over a lifetime
Quote from: yockey5 on January 27, 2012, 02:38:13 PM
My first mentor was a commercial beek back in 1978 and he taught me so much, but I am so impressed with BjornBee that I will say nothing. He (BjornBee) does seem to know it all.
Well thank you yockey. While it may seem like I know everything, especially for a beginner, I really do not. I learn every day.
I do think the OP asked about "practices" and not whether some knowledge could be gained from commercial folks. I got much of my knowledge (and that includes some practices I would not recommend) from commercial guys. I learned much from commercial guys, both good and bad.
I did outline some of the "practices" of commercial beekeepers. (large holding yards, using comb long periods of time, prophylactic treatments for everything, etc.) that I would not really suggest for a small time beekeeper. While that may rub a few to even bring these issues up, I'll stick by my comments.
QuoteMy question was more academic and hope that it has not ruffled a few feathers.
not to worry. some intentionally turn their backs to the wind waiting for a breeze.
never be afraid to ask questions. even if you do start something 1. it can be fun to watch and 2. the mods are good about taking care of that stuff.
:evil: :evil:
Quote from: BjornBee on January 27, 2012, 01:22:08 PM
First....what is your definition of a "commercial" beekeeper.
If it includes loading your bees up 10 or more times per year and moving them about in stressful situations, traditionally using 30 year old comb, placing them on mono-agriculture limiting their diet, replacing natural food with patties and corn syrup, using illegal chemicals and treating many more times that is needed to pass any border crossings, stacking a thousand hives all next together in holding yards (disease transfer) and buying bulk queen cells from the same breeder and genetic material, to name a few....than that is a migratory commercial beekeeper. Each one of those things I just mentioned are part of most commercial migratory operations. To suggest they must be doing everything right for the mere fact they are "commercial" beekeepers, completely ignores some of the advice and recommendations on combating CCD. Like proper nutrition, loweringions.i stress, keeping bees away from certain chemicals, etc. All associated with commercial operations. If those items were not true, there would be no need for recommendations.
Well bjorn bee, I am sorry that the commercial guys you know keep bees that way. I have been keeping bees commercially now for 19 years and have had to learn alot of things the hard way and used many of the mentioned methods in my early years.
Now however I don't. My oldest comb is 5 years old and we are one a 5 year rotation with our comb. I only use "soft" more treatments...aka oxalic acid and formic acid. We use menthol for trachea mites, and nozevit for nosema control.
As far as my queens , we use reputable breeders that choose hygienics as one of there main priorities.we use four or five different breeders and always try to rotate stock.I do use supplemental pollens and believe even the hobby keeper would be a fool not to. Yes I do feed sucrose to the bees also in times of dearth. I suggest you do not lump all commercial beekeepers in the same category as your opening paragraph bjornbee, because you certainly don't know us all.
I now operate 2500 hives and consistently keep my losses below 10%. I sell 700 five frame nucs every year mostly to hobby keepers. I think asking advice from the commercial guys is a great way to learn beekeeping. And if the hobby guys listen to us most of them can keep their hives alive in a healthy and stress free way. You guys have the luxury of
keeping your hives as stress free as possible.....we don't.
o
As a control
Good for you buck man. I am sure you are not the typical large commercial guys. And I even bet you raise some eyebrows when you mention 5 year comb rotation. :)
But...... I never said all commercial guys were the same. The OP asked about "practices". I stand by my comments of what I suggested was practices. Who conducts these "practices" mentioned....commercial guys. If your not in the same boat good for you.
The fact that you end your comments by suggesting "you guys......" indicates your acknowledgement that there ARE differences between hobbyist and commercial practices of keeping bees.
I won't go into the illegal chemicals in the industry that are conveniently swept under the rug. As a state inspector I saw for years the illegal chemicals placed into hives. The fact is that many commercial guys are all connected to the same network, and if one finds something they think works, they almost all try it. It is hard to sweep it totally under the rug when the largest commercial operator was fined for illegal chemicals. And for anyone to suggest that this was an isolated case is just fooling themselves.
I have beekeepers ask me why I suggest not placing all the hives in one yard. Kind of like suggesting "Don't put all your eggs in one basket". Interesting that this question was also asked of two rather large commercial operators who did everything in their power to suggest that large holding yards was not detrimental to bees, since they fed them, and provided everything the bees needed. Hard to say it's harmful when they do it. I found that commercial guys will not really confess that ANYTHING that they might be doing is harmful to their bees. Like moving bees can't possible harm bees because "we" have been doing it for years. But some are now questioning if all those moves are good for bees. http://www.smallfarmsuccess.info/are-global-honey-bee-declines-caused-by-diesel-pollution.cfm (http://www.smallfarmsuccess.info/are-global-honey-bee-declines-caused-by-diesel-pollution.cfm)
You need look no further than the front page of recent issue of Bee Culture February 2012 to see the holding yards with thousands of hives. ;) Across the top of the cover it reads "The Magazine of American Beekeeping" which probably lends to why beekeepers around the world think we all keep bees like this. :roll:
This was not about "Beekeepers", it was a question about practices. In discussing those "practices" it also warrants mentioning who conducts those practices. It is about the practices over the years that got beekeeping to where it is today. Ten years ago, there were folks like Ross Conrad, and others, that were considered "fringe" or kooks for mentioning stress, nutrition, genetic diversity, illegals chems, large holding yards, and many other "practices" many times seen with commercial beekeepers. And they were sometimes openly scorned.
But for many, those practices are still going on. They do understand that so they can't be seen causing any problems themselves, they best keep their mouths shut. And for some, they even suggest that illegal chemicals were never that big a deal and it only involves a very few number of commercial guys.
Not sure who you buy bees from. My experience in these parts, is that many use one main queen cell producer from Florida. (no need to mention his name) A few years back, he was a speaker at the state association. Upon telling his CCD story of losing all but three hives in a particular yard that had over a hundred hives, he was asked if he "was going to breed from these "survivor" bees?". His response was "since we open mate, we do not care about selection ourselves. We just buy a couple breeder queens every year and graft from those and they open mate with whatever is out there." Holy Cow! In a time that nobody knew what CCD was, and disease could of been part of the mix, why would you NOT breed from these three hives? You just were shown that genetics bought earlier failed. Why? Nobody knows. But in case it was disease, I think any serious breeder would of been breeding from those three remaining healthy hives. I was shocked and stunned to hear this approach of mass produced queens (and lack of any drone support), and then sold to commercial guys. I thought this guy was "reputable" also, as the big commercial guys all praised his operation, until I heard about his operation myself.
You don't find many commercial guys claiming all these things are harmful. What you find is some saying "We have to keep bees this way" which may be true. But "keeping bees this way" does not need to be dignified, passed along, or somehow suggested that this is not harmful to bees. I just happen to think that these practices are harmful to bees. And I also have heard commercial guys suggest nothing wrong, in attempts to validate what they do in their own operations.
I am glad you have a successful operation. I would like to point out that your comment about beekeepers being "fools" for not using pollen supplements, is much like the attitude and advice over the years by among other folks, commercial beekeepers, who also suggested that beekeepers were "fools" for not using harsh chemicals in their hives. ;) I heard more than a few tell beginners that they "needed" to treat for fear of losing their bees. But stick around and read some of the folks here and you will find many at odds with that standard "practice". :-D And even treatments for hobbyists should be along the lines of treating only those that need it, and not the "Treat them all" advice I heard over the years from commercial guys.
So don't view my attitude or comments to harshly. There are many in the past who did not want to use harsh chemicals (or pollen supplements) regardless of the "fool" comments that were made in the past, and continue today. Getting hobbyist to use the same chemicals (strips) as the commercial industry was probably for many reasons. To justify production, testing, etc. Hobbyists probably made making strips worth it for the manufacturers. The bee industry needed everyone on the same page. Of course that says nothing of those that bypassed the cost of strips and just poured the stuff in straight from the bottle. :-D
The fact that your operation has changed over the years is a great thing. You probably took a step closer to some of what many hobbyists have been doing all the while. ;)
Here is some differences in "practices" as I see it.......
Commercial guys "treat them all" out of logistics and cost factors. Hobbyists should treat those hives needing it.
Commercial guys use large holding yards out of need. Hobbyists should diversify their yards to minimize disease and chemical impacts.
Commercial guys traditionally used comb very long periods of time, and was costly to do otherwise. Hobbyists could do this on a smaller scale and for a few hives.
Commercial guys treated by a calendar and for need of passing inspections, while taking into account labor, cost, etc. Hobbyists should treat when needed as indicated by their knowing if it is needed.
Commercial guys buy queen cells by the thousands, while some claim that "a queen is a queen, is a queen". I think hobbyists should breed their own localized and survivor stock, while understanding that there are differences in queens out there.
Do all commercial guys fall into this? No. But it is worth pointing out, so perhaps new beekeepers can understand when conflicting information is given. It helps with the "Even though I read about different types of bees and how some are producing good queens, I was told last night at the bee club meeting that all queens were basically the same", and they wonder why someone would say that.
These conversations are great unless you feel your toes being stepped upon. Hurt toes sometimes comes about with little more than a sprinkle of truth thrown out for a discussion. But I would rather it be cast out for all to see. ;)
QuoteThere are several commercial keepers in my local club that want to "show me the ropes" but I just dont know if the way a 500 plus hive operation runs the same as a 10 or less one and I would like to hear the consensus.
Yes I would listen to them and anyone else that has worked with bees for a length of
time,in time you can find what works best for you,
I'd bet a lot of them started small and moved up in number of hives
Welcome to Beemaster it really is a great place to talk and learn Bees
a little curve now and then :-D
Tommyt
bjb you never stop*
Hope they call you out for derailing/agitating
and you end up as you did @bsource :-D
Some people agitate others just to have fun.
Others have real knowledge to spread, but lack tact in their writing.
It takes someone with a bit of intelligence to tell the difference. I feel for those who don't have that intelligence.
QuoteOthers have real knowledge to spread, but lack tact in their writing.
you call it tact, i call it economy of words. :-D
TommyT is banned barring further review,after being subtly warned before. His last notes on reply 18 above is a perfect way to find somewhere else to go.
This behavior is not acceptable here.
Sorry to hear about TommyT.
I noted forum bylaws to him,some don't know when to quit. He made his own decision on this matter.
Now lets put this topic back on track. :)
I am glad you were an inspector bjornbee it sheds a little more light on your knowledge. :) thanks for your comments. I may not be as eloquent or verbose as you, but I still feel I can get my points across. Let me give you a little more info on myself..
1. As stated before we rotate in about 8-10 thousand deep frames for new broodcomb every year, and we sell our 5 year old comb in our 5 frame nucs. It works out well and we have had our wax tested for pesticide residue and have found next to none. So those buying our " old " frames are still getting servicable frames. :)
2. We do not " blanket" treat for any disease. We only treat when we find a problem, and then only the infected hives. Whether its varroa, trachea mites, efb, afb, or nose a, and we use approved treatments...TM 100 , tylosin, menthol, formic acid, nozevit, or oxalic. Not sure if oxalic is approved though....just know it works great when the hive is broodless. We are in our bees almost weekly from march through July.
3. Our holdind yards tend to be smaller than most commercial operations. We ship 6.5 loads of 408 hives to CA. Every spring. We put 816 in each holding yard , and there are about 20 miles between locations. Unfortunately there are other beekeepers bees between us. These are the bees that always concern me.our summer honey yards are 28-32 hive locations.
4. As far s our queens go , we don't have access to cells so we use mated queens and requeen 80% of our outfit every year. We have recently started using a modified double queen method with great success. About 90% of the new queens when united take, and during the honey flow both queens we have found working together. It makes for monster honey producers and has increased our yields by about 30%.
5. As far a supplemental feeds go ...yes we do that. We never pull honey out of the top brood box, but the hives are seldom heavy enough to winter . We feed both sucrose and high fructose syurup to get there weight up to par. We shoot for about 115-120# double deep hive weight. As we feed we also use a high quality pollen sub. That we mix ourselves. It has a complete amino acid profile along with the fatty lipids needed for brood rearing and assimilation.we have all our honey off by the end of august and begin our feeding program and if necessary our mite treatments. We do all this to inure we have an average strength hive of about 10 frames by Feb. First. That's tough to do but with proper management you can winter huge colonies.
So when i say that a hobby keeper would be a fool to not use pollen patties I do believe it. I know that the young bees we raise in the late fall are the reason we can successfully winter huge hives, and huge hives translate into more
brood to make splits or sell, and also make more honey. Who wouldn't want that? I also winter every year the same three hives behind my shop. They go through all of winters glory and always come through like gang busters using the same practices that I use for all my other " traveling" hives. So my methods do work for my non migrating hives too.
Hope you guys enjoy this and possibly helped.
Thanks.
What I have to say comes from our local club president. He said that hobby beekeeping should be geared more like commercial beekeeping. He also said that back in the day (I thing before the 60's) all beekeeping was like commercial beekeeping is today. I think the biggest thing he is getting at, is the time in the hive. The less time in the hive the better.
Quote from: Thebeebender on January 27, 2012, 11:52:44 AM... How do the keeping practices of a commercial operation fair when managing a small number say 10 or less hives?...
To help answer your question turn it around. "How do keeping practices of a hobbest managing 10 hives compare to a commercial operation?
One large bee breeder told me he shipped over 9,000 packages last year. That's over 13 tons of bees. He's got to be doing something right.