i have a few questions i hope y'all can help me with about small cell.i hope this is the right section for this,if not i apologize and feel free to move it to the right section.
a little background : i plan to start with 4-6 packages this Spring and i have been putting my boxes together and now i have been trying to figure out what combination of frames/foundation i need to order.
i plan to get my packages from 2 people. 1 person already raises them on small cell and he recommends 8 frame mediums on Kelly small cell.
the other guy i am getting packages from raises them on Pierco.i have read that bees raised on the pierco will accept small cell pretty good....true?
questions :
is Mann lake small cell wax foundation any good?
what are the pros/cons of using wood frames-w-wax vs.wax coated plastic like mann lake's pf120?
and this may be a dumb question:
do the bees draw out drone cells on small cell foundation? or do you have to use a different size for them to draw out drone cells?
any advice will be appreciated.
thanks,
T.J.
Quotei have read that bees raised on the pierco will accept small cell pretty good....true?
True in my bee yard. All my deep frames are pierco plastic foundation in wood frames. Those are normal sized cells (5.3mm I believe). All my mediums are PF120 which are 4.9mm cells. I have hives with BOTH frames being used for brood at the same time and my bees brood them both up. I would recommend rolling a thicker layer of wax on the PF120s to get them going, especially if you're just starting out. It can make a world of difference.
Quotewhat are the pros/cons of using wood frames-w-wax vs.wax coated plastic like mann lake's pf120?
I like the plastic foundation in wood frames because they are more rigid than the pure plastic, but either will work. You do get more cells with the all plastic frames. I don't think the bees give a hoot which way you go. However in the south, the PF120's (or any all plastic frames) might be problematic with SHB. There are lots of nooks and cranies for pests to hide in those all plastic frames. Seek some local advice on that.
As for drones, they'll fit them in anywhere they can, like between boxes :(
you have opened a new can of worms with this one :-D
small cell is pretty much worthless in my opinion....except to the people who market small cell. natural cell, or foundationless, is a better way to go for many reasons. the bees draw exactly what they want, including drone cells and don't make the mess looking for places to stick drone cells. wood frames are cheaper and if you are doing foundationless, they are great.
i'm sure there is someone on here who still does small cell and they'll chime in and tell you i'm all wet! :evil:
>i plan to get my packages from 2 people. 1 person already raises them on small cell and he recommends 8 frame mediums on Kelly small cell.
Not a bad choice.
>the other guy i am getting packages from raises them on Pierco.i have read that bees raised on the pierco will accept small cell pretty good....true?
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#foundationtoday (http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#foundationtoday)
Pierco foundation 5.2 mm
Pierco deep frames 5.25 mm
Pierco medium frames 5.35 mm
Pierco deep foundation on wood frames would be almost a first regression. They get bigger from there...
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#whatisregression (http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#whatisregression)
>is Mann lake small cell wax foundation any good?
As far as I can tell all the wax small cell comes from Dadant. (I question if Kelley's does, but I don't know). My guess is Mann Lake's comes form Dadant as well. What do you mean by "any good"?
The Mann Lake PF100 series (PF100s for deeps and PF120s for mediums) are 4.9mm plastic frames with foundation and have worked the best for regressing.
>what are the pros/cons of using wood frames-w-wax vs.wax coated plastic like mann lake's pf120?
The plastic will be drawn more reliably the wax will get reworked, probably to something larger than 4.9mm. How do you feel about plastic?
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesphilosophy.htm (http://www.bushfarms.com/beesphilosophy.htm)
>do the bees draw out drone cells on small cell foundation? or do you have to use a different size for them to draw out drone cells?
Bees always find a place to draw drones. But if you want to make it easier, just give them an empty frame between two drawn brood combs and they will usually fill the first one with drone comb.
thanks everyone for all the advice i appreciate it.
i also see i have alot more reading to do in a short amount of time.i thought it might be a little easier starting from scratch and trying to keep everything the same but i guess not :-\
so if i start off with wood frames and small cell foundation.....will the bees re-work any of it for drone cells?
i dont have an aversion of using plastic but i also dont want drone cells everywhere.
i like the idea of maybe going foundationless but starting with packages i dont have any drawn combs.i imagine it would be a huge mess to dump the packages into a hive body full of empty frames with no foundation.
again thanks for all the advice,
T.J.
Quotei like the idea of maybe going foundationless but starting with packages i dont have any drawn combs.i imagine it would be a huge mess to dump the packages into a hive body full of empty frames with no foundation.
sometimes, but sometimes they do that with foundation also. do some reading on starter strips. that's the best way to get them going, or one sheet of foundation down the middle.
I've been out of school 23yrs and now kathyp has given me 23 pages of homework to do :-D (search starter strips on here = 23 pages of topics)
thanks alot kathy... :lau:
T.J.
TJ, my advice is start with enough Mann Lake PF100/120 frames to get your packages through the first 8 weeks. That might be 8 to 10 frames per hive. By then all the big bees will have died (or at least moved on to forager status) and your hives will be regressed.
Then start to add Kelley foundationless frames. You don't need starter strips because the bees like the wooden piece attached to the top bar. If you place each foundationless frame between two drawn PF120s, the bees will have no problem drawing straight foundationless comb. Even if you don't put them between drawn comb you will still probably be ok.
You can keep using the PF120s for a few years until they are ready to be discarded. Then you will have regressed foundationless hives, and nothing you use will be wasted.
While we're at it, let me also suggest that you consider going with all 8 frame mediums as recommended by Michael Bush. You will save yourself lots of compatibility problems and heavy lifting. Just a suggestion. :)
Quotethanks alot kathy...
my pleasure!! :-D
or do as FRAME suggests. i am just cheap. well, not me.....the way i do things is on the cheap.
If you feel your Mann Lake frames are redy to discard in a few years, ship them to me and I will do the hazmat honors for you as required. It won't be required but I will use them for another twentyor so years with no ill effect unless you have used a lot of fluvinate and coumaphos. Just scrape them down if you get too big a patches of drone comb built over the stamped cell bases. Use them as frame guides and put empty foundationless frames between two well drawn out plastic ones. If they draw a few all drone comb ones, move them to the 1 and ten position or 1 and 8 positions in the box. let them fill one with drone brood and cut it out and kill a bunch of mites and put it back between two well drawn out plastic frames. It is easy and drawn comb is an asset to be treasured if you are not contaminating it with hard acaracides or phropylactic antibiotic and fumidil treatments.
Vance, I agree with you. I was just saying that if someone's goal was to be completely foundationless, they would not have to keep the plastic foundation. Small cell is not the same as natural cell, but having a few Mann Lake's mixed in is not going to cause a problem at all. Yes, I will be scraping mine down and re-using them. The only problem with scraping them down is that the bees are slow to re-draw the comb on PF120s if they have a foundationless frame available to draw. So you might need to stick them in a PF120-only hive to get them re-drawn.
The only point where I might differ with your advice is that I would not cut out the all-drone comb from foundationless frames. As you say, drawn comb is an asset to be treasured, so I would freeze the drone comb to kill the mites and then stick them back in the hive to be cleaned up by the bees and re-used as mite traps.
So you guys think 1 box of 120's per hive is enough? I start in the spring with nucs and I was gonna use 2 boxes of 8frame med before i put the foundationless in. Would be nice to cut that in half.
Quote from: oblib on February 01, 2012, 09:41:46 AM
So you guys think 1 box of 120's per hive is enough? I start in the spring with nucs and I was gonna use 2 boxes of 8frame med before i put the foundationless in. Would be nice to cut that in half.
Big bees will build large-cell comb if you give them foundationless frames. So ideally you want to keep the bees on 120s until the original package bees have died or become foragers. How many frames you need depends on how quickly the bees are drawing comb and laying eggs. Not all the hives will draw comb at the same rate, so you might start all the hives on one 8-frame box and have some additional boxes of 120s in reserve if some of the hives use up the first box in less than 6 weeks.
By 8 weeks it should be safe to add the foundationless frames. If you get a small amount of large cell, it's not the end of the world. Even regressed bees will draw some larger brood cells and drone comb and of course honey comb. You just don't want lots of brood comb drawn by the original package bees.
Oblib, I see that you are starting with a nuc. If the nuc is already regressed, you don't even have to use 120s at all. But if the nuc is standard foundation, your queen is going to continue to lay in the foundation and you are not going to get regression. If natural cell/ small cell is your goal, you might be better off with a package. If you don't care about small cell, you could skip the 120s and just add foundationless frames to the nuc.
wow.i want to thank everyone for all the help/advice.it is greatly appreciated.
FRAMEshift, that sounds like a good plan (starting out with the pf120's).so i need to start off with a full box of 120's and then start adding kelly's foundationless frames after 8 weeks? do i need to let the 120's get completely drawn out before i switch or just wait for the 8 week mark?
i am going with all mediums & half of them will be started in 8 frame mediums the other half in 10 frame mediums to see which i like better.
another quick question about the kelly's foundationless frames : do they need to be wired?
again thanks for the advice,
T.J.
Quote from: T.J. on February 01, 2012, 10:52:25 PM
FRAMEshift, that sounds like a good plan (starting out with the pf120's).so i need to start off with a full box of 120's and then start adding kelly's foundationless frames after 8 weeks? do i need to let the 120's get completely drawn out before i switch or just wait for the 8 week mark?
Yes, start with pf120s only. I would start adding foundationless frames at about 8 weeks. If some of the pf120s still don't have brood in them, you could remove those frames and replace them with foundationless or you could add a second box and alternate the drawn pf120s with foundationless. Having a drawn pf120 on each side of an empty foundationless frame will help ensure that the comb will be drawn straight. So you are using the drawn pf 120s as a comb guide. When 7 of the 8 frames have been drawn, it's time to add a second box. If you run out of pf120s, go ahead and add foundationless frames (between drawn pf120s) even if it's before the 8 week mark. Use your judgement and don't take the 8 week mark as an iron-clad rule.
Once you give the hive foundationless frames, the bees will draw those in preference to the plastic frames, so leaving undrawn pf120s in isn't going to help much until all the foundationless has been drawn. Don't be surprised if the first foundationless frames are drawn with drone comb. The bees will be anxious to make drones and they will take advantage of the freedom offered by the foundationless frames to do just that. Once they are satisfied with the amount of drone comb, they will start drawing natural cell brood comb, and that's what you want.
Quote
another quick question about the kelly's foundationless frames : do they need to be wired?
They come with wire holes pre-drilled so you can wire if you want to. We do cut comb only so we don't use wire but that's totally up to you.
why would one deliberately get a volxwagon to haul a bunch of loads when they could get a pickup and hall it in one trip. bees dont get that much help with mites on small cell and onlythe old die hards still use it. i have hives 7=8 yrs old and never treated for mites and all are on medium brood foundation. but every one of mine caught locally with no bought bees in the area. i know i need some genetic diversity aand ocasionally one of my buddies bring me a cut out from their area but they always leave. as far as i know nouthing has been proven about small cell being benificial except for the few that keep on on their soap box.
kathy ; go girl
Bud, I'm not trying to sell small cell to anybody. I suspect it helps but what I'm really doing is natural comb, which is cheaper and simpler than buying and installing foundation over and over. But of course, if you start with bees from large cell foundation, you aren't going to get natural comb.... thus the need to use small cell foundation until the big bees go to bee heaven.
I think your results are a testament to good genetics. Your bees come from those hives that have survived on their own so they have to be good. I wish everyone could have your bees or Michael Bush's bees or whatever bees are best adapted to their local area. But most folks still rely on bee packages from elsewhere, at least in the beginnning.
frame shift if some one wants to do the regression later on fine, i just dont like sugesting it to newbees, they have enough to digest to start with. once they get enough time under their belt sure try out anything that tickles their fanticy. and i like natural comb, but it is easier for beginers to use foundation the first yr then start playing. after one makes it that first year they are usually hooked and get to wondering , fine then go to it
Quote from: bud1 on February 02, 2012, 06:55:16 PM
frame shift if some one wants to do the regression later on fine, i just dont like sugesting it to newbees, they have enough to digest to start with. once they get enough time under their belt sure try out anything that tickles their fanticy. and i like natural comb, but it is easier for beginers to use foundation the first yr then start playing. after one makes it that first year they are usually hooked and get to wondering , fine then go to it
I don't know, these guys seem to have done their homework... they are asking the right questions. And using two types of frames is not much harder than messing with wax foundation. My problem with going the first year with standard foundation is that you get a bunch of large cell drawn comb that you have to get rid of before you can get to natural comb.
If it needs to be simpler than what I have suggested, maybe the answer is to use all pf120 frames. Then there is no messing around with anything. The easiest time to move in the direction of natural comb is when you get your first package.
I know what you're saying Bud, and maybe it depends on how focused a new beek is. But a year is plenty of time to study and improve your understanding of the issues involved. It might not work with everyone, but I think the posters in this thread are pretty focused.
go foundationless just make sure the hive is level side to side ,with about 3/4 to 1 inch fall back to front the bees will build what they need. :)
>why would one deliberately get a volxwagon to haul a bunch of loads when they could get a pickup and hall it in one trip
Because they both have the same Volkswagen engine...
>i just dont like sugesting it to newbees
I don't like them having to start over when they could have already regressed them and bought the equipment they really want. It's MUCH more complicated to learn about all the different treatments for all the different diseases than it is to go treatment free.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#HowToRegress (http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#HowToRegress)
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm (http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm)
-snip- I know what you're saying Bud, and maybe it depends on how focused a new beek is. But a year is plenty of time to study and improve your understanding of the issues involved. It might not work with everyone, but I think the posters in this thread are pretty focused.
[/quote]
Joined the 2 local assoc on either side of me, read at least 10,000 pages in books on bees and beekeeping, can't count all the webites that i have read, built all my woodenware except for the frames and 6 of 60 boxes.
Yup I think I'm focused :-D
oblib, what kind of nucs are you getting? Are they already on small cell foundation or foundationless comb? Just want to make sure you understood about introducing large cell foundation into the hive. It will slow down the regression to normal sized bees. Eggs that are laid in the large cell will produce bees that are too big to draw natural comb.
If you start a package with small cell foundation like the pf120s, they are regressed in the first few brood cycles, basically within 2 months. But it can take years to get rid of large cell and you will waste a lot of drawn comb trying.
THis spring I re entered beekeeping with six nucs and a pile of new mann lake 4.9 mm plastic frames pl 220's and new boxes. I am sure It did slow down the regression but I just kept moving the frames from the nuc to the outside and when they were free of brood removed them til I left just 2 in the 1 and 10 position where they don't get brood laid anyway. By the end of the summer, almost all of my bees were little. I am sure that some of the terrible messes that were made on the ML frames were because of my methodology. By the time the nucs had filled another deep and a couple of them two more on ML frames, they had the new size comb down pretty well. Two of the six colonies just draw crappy comb and I think they would do that on any foundation. They are all moved up into the top hive body now with 11 shaved ML frames per Mr. Bush's suggestion. I think I will get small bees when I start feeding in foundationless this spring. I am hoping this regimen will aid in mite control. If it doesn't, I have lost nothing. I still will get a faster ramp up in population because my clusters will cover more cells filled with brood. It's worth a shot and if it doesn't work, there is no downside I can see. It will just all get mixed in with other frames. If it works, as I am confidant it will, I am free of hard chemical treatments. I think it is always a combination of management practices that leads to sucess. Brood breaks and genetics have got to be at least as important in controlling the mite monster. All I know for sure is ya gotta do somethin or you are going to buy a lot of replacement bees.
Wow, excellent discussion! This is one topic that always brings out the very best of this forum :) IMO .
You're all awesome.
I am sooooo glad I went foundationless early on in this beekeeping project 8-) and never had to bother w/ anything other than the foundation that came with my original Lang kits.
Those were completely removed about five years ago. I do keep some around though just in case I need to 'assist' bees to build where I want them to ;) and don't have any available comb to spare from another colony.
Anyone else notice that wax moths won't touch plain 'wax' foundation? Hm mm.
thomas
I couldnt find any local smallcell so as soon as the queen is laying in the boxes with the 120's I will put an excluder on to keep her there. Once all the nuc frames are empty of brood, out they come. I won't give the foundationless frames until 8 weeks after the nuc frames come out.
So I won't get the nuc advantage of "free" comb but I will still get the benifit of a continual supply of nurse beees to allow the queen lay all she wants. And the nucs are costing $85 per so its as cheap or cheaper than packages.
mike since you quoted part i will type again part that you seam to have missed; i have hives 7-8yrs old hives that have never been treated for mites, other than your small cell soap box stance i personally thank you. .your dillligence on this forum. you and your web site are a great source and freely given thanks and i have personally pointed many to your site as it is a wealth of info. just dont agree with the small cell
on the engine i seam to recall where they have another called a porche(or how ever you spell it)
important to note here that there is a BIG difference between natural cell and small cell. it is small cell that i think is a waste of time and money. natural cell, i'm all for . let them build what they want and the size that they want it.
there is no study that back small cell for mite or disease control. it's a money making gimmick at this point.
Quote from: kathyp on February 03, 2012, 11:00:18 AM
important to note here that there is a BIG difference between natural cell and small cell. it is small cell that i think is a waste of time and money. natural cell, i'm all for . let them build what they want and the size that they want it.
there is no study that back small cell for mite or disease control. it's a money making gimmick at this point.
Who the heck is making any money to speak of, off of SC???
Quote from: D Semple on February 03, 2012, 01:05:37 PM
Quote from: kathyp on February 03, 2012, 11:00:18 AM
important to note here that there is a BIG difference between natural cell and small cell. it is small cell that i think is a waste of time and money. natural cell, i'm all for . let them build what they want and the size that they want it.
there is no study that back small cell for mite or disease control. it's a money making gimmick at this point.
Who the heck is making any money to speak of, off of SC???
Not sure if pointing fingers at individuals is a good thing. Your finger may very well get smacked.
But there is a whole group of folks who get speakers fees (500 dollars and up) for the promotion of their ideology. Some sell books. Some sell queens and bees. There are a couple beekeepers who have sold a good number of nucs from the active participation and promotion of just being on a couple forums. I could list a number of folks who have sold their bees on the promises of smallcell claims.
I see a few speakers in every category, whether smallcell, TBH, Warre hives, etc., that are in demand for their services due to claims of being "more" natural, etc.
I will add that I also think that ego and self promotion probably come in play also. Beekeepers are great at tweaking a thing here or there, building a new design or hive, and making themselves standout. Years ago, there was probably one book per year (if that) put out by well established beekeepers. Today, it seems everyone is an expert. Everyone wants to put out a book. And everyone has a website. So to stand out, you need a niche. You need to sell an ideology different than the others. As example, I have read two different articles on "super" bees this year being promoted as the next thing to save beekeeping. And you better believe that these two folks are lining up the speaking engagements based on this promotion, asking high rates, and high prices for their bees.
Beekeepers are the ultimate optimists. They are always looking for a better tomorrow. Always thinking someone will solve their problems. Always willing to be sold the next thing coming down the street. And yes, there is money to be made off of selling pipe dreams and false hopes.
While I don't really think huge amounts of money is being made, one should at least understand the dynamics of the game at hand. ;)
I see no problem with people voluntarily paying for a subject about which they are interested.If someone has had a good experience and wants to share it, even if it may only be part of a broader program for IPM,let them speak.
I see no one makes mention that all cells in the brood area get subsequently smaller with repeated brood cycles. Unless the cells are torn down for one reason or another. In the natural cycle of things,wax moths eradicate the comb in natural colonies that have been abandoned. But we as beekeepers use the same combs for long periods of time and and do our best to keep wax moths from filling their niche in nature.
Can small cell be part of an IPM program? I think so. But I do not think it used exclusively as the cure all. There is no more harm done experimenting with this.
But there are reasons companies that sell foundation for this purpose warn that it should be used by experienced bee keepers. I assume that keeps people from being upset it if does not do what they wish for.
Notice I said that is my assumption.Not a printed fact.
Quote from: oblib on February 02, 2012, 11:30:35 PM
Joined the 2 local assoc on either side of me, read at least 10,000 pages in books on bees and beekeeping, can't count all the webites that i have read, built all my woodenware except for the frames and 6 of 60 boxes.
Yup I think I'm focused :-D
But one thing you have to remember,the bees have read none of the books!! :-D :-D
They are always capable of throwing something "not in the books" at you.
Quote from: buzzbee on February 03, 2012, 03:03:17 PM
Quote from: oblib on February 02, 2012, 11:30:35 PM
Joined the 2 local assoc on either side of me, read at least 10,000 pages in books on bees and beekeeping, can't count all the webites that i have read, built all my woodenware except for the frames and 6 of 60 boxes.
Yup I think I'm focused :-D
But one thing you have to remember,the bees have read none of the books!! :-D :-D
They are always capable of throwing something "not in the books" at you.
Thats why I joined 2 beek associations and this forum. :cheer:
Bjorn,
Good for them, I'm glad they make a few bucks or scratch out a living, off of what they believe in. Gee, that would probably make them American.
BUT, I don't see that money is what motivates any of the dozen or so who strongly promote SC and treatment free and make any money at all at it. Agree with their methods or not, they are all about what they believe is "what's best for bees", something we all have in common.
Don
I don't think reading is taught much anymore , but in Gullivers Travels, Lilleput and Blefiscue were at continual war over whether to crack your poached egg at the small end or the large end. That satire has at least a small significance in the cell size argument. The bottom line is you better be doing something or the mites will getcha. People who are actively working at it will keep their bees alive by a number of means. Those who just say they are treatment free will tend to be excellant customers for bee suppliers.
Quoteany of the dozen or so who strongly promote SC and treatment free and make any money at all at it.
again, it should be pointed out that treatment free and small cell are not the same. you can go treatment free if you pay attention to the genetics of the bees and promote those lines that handle the mites well. which...i think, is what you will find in most yards that promote small cell and treatment free. the care in the breeding has more to do with success than the foundation, or lack of it.
i really don't care one way or the other what people do. i do care that new people get sold on these things and then, when it doesn't work out, they get discouraged. management needs to be kept to basics as experience is gained. it's hard to develop a "method" for anything until you have some idea what you are doing.
vance you are rite the thing i do is dont worry about mites, that problem is over , just get you some bees that handle them as kathy says. for those who order packages; in 2 years they better be ready to treat no matter what they are on as they come from basicly the big guys that dont have the time or inclination to just let the ones that cant handle the mites just go the way of natural selection as mine have. i have a case or 2 0f european fowl crop up ocasionally that i do treat for, but my problem is beatles not mites, but you can bet they gona handle them too eventually.
kathy,
i now see what you meant about a can of worms.... ;)
i want to thank everyone for all the help/advice.i really appreciate it. i have learned alot in these 2 pages.
thanks,
T.J.
Bud 1, I am glad you are there and I don't doubt you are. I am not---that I know of. I have got resistent stock ordered to add to my genetics and will bungle along until I get there too if I have time with my onrushing decrepitude. Cell size makes sense to worry about for me because when building up, it seems that the cluster will cover more cells. The 4.9 mm frames are costing me no more, in fact getting unwaxed plastic was far cheaper than a frame and foundation of any kind. I see no harm in it or snake oil. Just different opinions. I guess i will find out this year or next. My clean nucs were starting to show mites last fall. I will get to see what happens this coming summer. Because I am going to test regularly and I am going to know! When you know you can respond.
Quote from: buzzbee on February 03, 2012, 03:03:17 PM
Quote from: oblib on February 02, 2012, 11:30:35 PM
Joined the 2 local assoc on either side of me, read at least 10,000 pages in books on bees and beekeeping, can't count all the webites that i have read, built all my woodenware except for the frames and 6 of 60 boxes.
Yup I think I'm focused :-D
But one thing you have to remember,the bees have read none of the books!! :-D :-D
They are always capable of throwing something "not in the books" at you.
My mentor says that the only thing absolute about bees is that there's nothing absolute about bees. ;)
Quote from: Vance G on February 03, 2012, 10:33:51 PM
Cell size makes sense to worry about for me because when building up, it seems that the cluster will cover more cells.
Why would the cluster cover more cells? The cells are smaller but so are the bees.
Any diagram or explanation i could make wouldn't matter would it? There would be another question. Have fun, but not with me.
Quote from: Vance G on February 04, 2012, 12:51:48 AM
Any diagram or explanation i could make wouldn't matter would it? There would be another question. Have fun, but not with me.
Of course it would matter if it made sense. Yes there will always be more questions. If you have an idea about advantages of smaller cells, I want to know. If not, I'll let it drop. This is not personal.
>it's a money making gimmick at this point.
I don't know anyone who is making any money off of it. Maybe Dadant selling the foundation for twice the price, but then they are putting some effort into making it. Dee has given away all of her information on another forum and the Yahoo group. She has no book to sell, no bees to sell and it costs her to go speak as she need to be beekeeping. Very few of my presentations are on small cell and even those I'm usually pushing natural cell which is free. It costs me to go speak. I miss a round of queens every trip, that I could have sold for more than I get for speaking, not to mention I use up vacation that I could have been working at computers for a lot more money, if I get ANYTHING for speaking, and I usually don't. I make a lot more money programming computers. A LOT more. The information has been available for free since Dee had it posted on another forum and since she started her yahoo group and all my information is free as well on my web site. I don't think anyone is "selling" small cell for a profit.
Who is making money on small cell? I don't know of anyone.
MB,
Since you mentioned so much on Dee as an example, lets focus on her a bit.
Can you tell me what she does for a living?
MB
Also....why are you not pushing smallcell 100% in your presentations? You clearly have stated many times that since you went to smallcell, you have never lost a hive due to mites. Sounds like promoting anything else would be questionable.
I know there was a few years when smallcell and "natural" cell was stated as being the same in no certain terms, and even today many get it confused. While there is no doubt that many see you as the pusher/promoter/defender of smallcell, why the step back from something you believe so strongly about and seems to be far superior as illustrated by you?
Sorry for any who thought the above questions were out of line or a personal attack on MB and in particular,......smallcell.
Have a good day!
Wow, we don't see too many apologise 8-) around here. Gotta love it.
thomas
T.J. - great thread thanks
You've been given great advice by FrameShift, Kathy, Bud, and Michael.
So it's not hard, take all their advice.
- Get yourself good bees
- Use a combination of foundation and foundationless. 4.9 may not help, but it won't hurt anything either.
- monitor for mites closely and take some kind of action if needed
- Have an overall plan that matches your phylosophy, and execute that plan
The very best part I've found of foundationless, SC, and being chemically treatment free isn't what it done for the bees, it's what it has done for me, which is to make me be more committed.
Don
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>Since you mentioned so much on Dee as an example, lets focus on her a bit.
>Can you tell me what she does for a living?
She sells honey. I don't know of anyone who pays a premium because it's "small cell honey" nor is it advertised as such.
>Also....why are you not pushing smallcell 100% in your presentations? You clearly have stated many times that since you went to smallcell, you have never lost a hive due to mites.
I have said since I went to small cell and natural cell. A lot of presentations are what people want to have presented.
>I know there was a few years when smallcell and "natural" cell was stated as being the same in no certain terms, and even today many get it confused. While there is no doubt that many see you as the pusher/promoter/defender of smallcell, why the step back from something you believe so strongly about and seems to be far superior as illustrated by you?
We've had this discussion. Certainly I see nothing wrong with people changing their mind, I've changed my mind on many things over the years, however, as I've stated before, in this case I have not. There was no step back. Small cell and natural cell succeed for the same reason, cell size. I have been a proponent of natural cell from the start. My first article on the subject and my main chapter on the subject talks about small cell only as one way to get smaller cells but focuses on natural cell size:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm (http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm)
Thanks for asking the question, T.J. I have learned a lot from the discussion.