OK, I have a question regarding bees going through their stores for winter.
I hear a lot of people saying that in the North you need more stores than in the South. For example, in the South, it is not uncommon to winter in a single deep. However, in the North you need two deeps.
Well, then, why is it that a warm winter would cause them to go through more stores. If that was the case, then you would need to have less stores in the North, and more stores in the South. We, up North should be wintering with a single deep, while those down South should be wintering with a double deep.
For example, here in Northern IL, we had the winter usually had in Southern IL. I'm sure they don't typically need more stores in Southern IL than we do in Northern IL.
In this incredibly warm winter, my hives have gone through only 5 1/2 lbs per month in stores . . . that's pretty good.
So, why do they winter with less stores down south, but when we get that kind of weather up north, they go through more stores . . . or is this just myth?
This far south (central FL) we actually have small amounts of nectar coming in almost all year...not a total dearth as up north. It also rarely gets cold enough for the bees to turn the heaters on.
Scott
Quote from: c10250 on February 07, 2012, 10:30:17 PM
OK, I have a question regarding bees going through their stores for winter.
I hear a lot of people saying that in the North you need more stores than in the South. For example, in the South, it is not uncommon to winter in a single deep. However, in the North you need two deeps.
Well, then, why is it that a warm winter would cause them to go through more stores. If that was the case, then you would need to have less stores in the North, and more stores in the South. We, up North should be wintering with a single deep, while those down South should be wintering with a double deep.
For example, here in Northern IL, we had the winter usually had in Southern IL. I'm sure they don't typically need more stores in Southern IL than we do in Northern IL.
In this incredibly warm winter, my hives have gone through only 5 1/2 lbs per month in stores . . . that's pretty good.
So, why do they winter with less stores down south, but when we get that kind of weather up north, they go through more stores . . . or is this just myth?
c10250
Where about in Illinois are you located? I'am West of Rockton
longer period of time with no natural forage.
c10250
Where about in Illinois are you located? I'am West of Rockton
Elgin area
Quote from: kathyp on February 07, 2012, 11:55:28 PM
longer period of time with no natural forage.
I'm not sure if I buy that. Comparing, say Georgia to Michigan, I would say that Georgia has a longer period of time with nothing coming into the hives. From all of the information I've seen, most places have one, maybe two flows per year. Here's the honey flow in North Georgia compared to Michigan.
Here's Georgia.
(http://honeybeenet.gsfc.nasa.gov/images/SH_Sites/Alpharetta/2008/Alpharetta,GA_plot.png)
Here's the honey flow in Michigan
(http://honeybeenet.gsfc.nasa.gov/images/SH_Sites/Lansing/1954/Lansing,MI_plot.png)
I think if you compare the two, they both go the same amount of time without anything coming into the hives. Michigan probably has less time between nectar/pollen coming in.
One major difference between the North and the South is, you can feed in the winter in the South. In the North it is almost always too cold for them to take syrup during winter and if they could there is almost always a cold spell where that syrup contributes too much moisture... so you can be lighter in the South and still manage them. In the North you're committed with what you have.
If you compare IL. to MS. you can see that there is more available forage for the bees. IL. first bloom is in March and the last is in Oct. MS. has a little something going on year round. I have a friend who brought 60 of his hives to MS. in the fall of 2010 and brought back his hives and about 150 nuc. All but one hive over wintered well. Sure can't say that for IL.
http://honeybeenet.gsfc.nasa.gov/Honeybees/Forage.htm (http://honeybeenet.gsfc.nasa.gov/Honeybees/Forage.htm)
10250, can you direct me to the source for your graphs. I'd like to find one for some areas in North Carolina, particularly Madison (Greensboro) and Carrboro (Raleigh).
My first response is that the winter is shorter in the South. So while the honey consumption per bee-day is higher in the South, there are fewer winter days without forage. Your graphs don't show accumulation of honey in February, March, the first half of April, and October. In Michigan (or Northern Illinois) there probably is no nectar during that time period. In North Carolina there is lots of nectar collected during those months, especially in April.
There is also the issue of cluster size. Due to the colder temperatures, I think larger bee populations are necessary to survive in the North. So again, the consumption per bee-day may be higher in the South, but if there are fewer bees, total consumption would be less.
Quote from: FRAMEshift on February 08, 2012, 07:17:46 AM
10250, can you direct me to the source for your graphs. I'd like to find one for some areas in North Carolina, particularly Madison (Greensboro) and Carrboro (Raleigh).
The graphs come from NASA's "Honeybeenet". Honeybeenet (http://honeybeenet.gsfc.nasa.gov/)
Click on the map on the left to see where there is data.
Ken
In this very warm winter the southern bees have been brood rearing at a very high level for the time of year. For every frame of brood you need a frame of pollena dn a frame of honey. With no strong nectar or pollen sources...you can see starvation very quickly.
Major flows are where you get your surplus honey. There are still some nectar and pollen sources in the fall and early spring in the South while in the north there may be zip. I know Bud said MS had henbit blooming.Bees are flying regularly. So although they may not be building surplus,they are maintaing and raising brood.
I had also noted in another thread,with the warmer weather the cluster sizes have not shrank as much from winter losses. This makes the cluster a larger machine of consumption,along with being able to raise larger quantities of brood than they other wise may have.
And like MB said,the ability to feed syrup comes much earlier in the south.
Yes, I would like to know why they use more stores in a mild winter, regardless of where they are. Why. Does not make sense to me. I would think use less stores in warmer (not longer) winter.
With the above average temps my bees consumed the majority of their honey before the first of the year. I had bees flying into mid-December seeking forage that had been nonexistent for months.
Bees in the South likely have much more access, not only to syrup from the beekeeper, but other 'trash' nutrients that may be available in cities and farms across southland while flying.
Northern bees that travel in winter, very often don't make it back home. Whatever forage 'might' be available throughout the year in some parts of the South is likely frozen solid in the North, so in accessable.
Unless we also get an early Spring my bees are gonna have to make it on the dry sugar left on top of their inner covers.
thomas
Jack, I have found that this time of year is the most critical in my apiary (not gonna speak for other microclimates). The days are growing longer and the temps are starting to rise, so brood areas are increasing. With more bees to feed, they will go through what they have left faster.
But it's more than stores or what's blooming, it's the ability to be able to go find what they need. If the weather tanks for a few weeks at any point in the late winter or spring, those bees can't fly and replenish (or supplement) what they are using from home. As a new beekeeper, I actually lost more hives to starvation in early-mid spring than during winter.
Ditto for keeping an eye on where the food is in the hive. Most of my hives are still heavy. But what I found when I got into some last Friday was that the food was gone around the cluster area. If February brings another freeze and I hadn't moved frames in or resupplied sugar, those bees would have starved. They still could, but they have a better shot now.
So many variables...it's almost enough to drive you crazy. Oh, yea, I'm a beekeeper... ;)
You need to be careful when using Michigan for comparisons. We have two peninsulas, with three Great Lakes. In West Michigan, the lakes warm the adjacent land in the fall and early winter, then cool the adjacent land the rest of the year, because of the prevailing west wind.
>>OK, I have a question regarding bees going through their stores for winter.
Come on folks, don't let this post die! I would like to know the answer. :?
In the south you have a shorter winter season. Up here in Minnesota we have a long winter. My hives are setting outside with 3 deeps and no jackets. With a warm winter I plan to have to even feed some in spring because they are going to be more active and use it all up. Hopefully I will be rewarded for the loss of all that honey by having all my hives built up and ready to go, not waiting for my packages to build up. More activity takes more food. Harold
Sometimes we must leave things to mystery :-D
My bees from past winters who survived considerably colder temps ATE LESS than my bees that had it warmer this year. No denying that.
I've NEVER had my bees run out of honey before winter actually kicked in, late or not. Early Spring yes, but NEVER so early. We stop taking any honey in August and all three of my colonies had plenty of it in October when I wrapped them up, when they should've been in cluster, but were instead flying around seeking forage that didn't exist, so I open fed them like a crazy person well into November whenever the daytime temps where in the fifties, but even that is likely gone by now.
In my limited experience of just 7 (entering the 8th) seasons, at a certain point the 'colder' it gets through the winter, the 'less' my bees actually are able to consume. During a normal winter, when we reach temps of -25 to -35 and stay there for a bit, my bees aren't eating much at all and likely can't move to surrounding honey even if it were possible, as they would have to break cluster and risk brood or queen death.
This makes me believe that acclimated Northern Winter Bees can possibly go without feeding (at least a while) during these times of extremely cold temps, when their clusters are immobile and hard as a rock and condensed as tight as they can beeeeee and they CAN'T feed. Which brings on the 'heater' bees :)
IMO; this 'extreme' consumption that took place with my bees this season, which could yet be detrimental unless it also brings on an early Spring, was as likely as not caused by the 'abnormally' warm winter we are experiencing, keeping them overly active and possibly fooling them into believing winter was going to be short or who knows what they thought. I'm just glad I gave all three lots of dry sugar.
That said; My LONG Hive has been very quiet lately :( , too quiet even last week when my two lang colonies were out in 48F temps rolling around in the pollen sub I put out 8-).
thomas
>Yes, I would like to know why they use more stores in a mild winter, regardless of where they are. Why. Does not make sense to me. I would think use less stores in warmer (not longer) winter.
Because they are more active.
My 2 cents:
There's a difference between temperatures of a warm winter in the South and a warm winter in the North, which interacts with three main "modes" for bees based on temperature (tight constant cluster, loose/intermittent cluster, and warm enough to fly with no cluster needed)
In NC, our nights are often above freezing all winter long, and this winter the vast majority of days have been warm enough to fly (in excess of 50 degrees for at least several hours). There has been perhaps one week when I did not see pollen sources (not just henbit but maple, etc), and this week the mahonia started blooming providing some nectar! The bees are active, and foragers can mostly meet their own energy requirements, so even though there is no major flow until April and not much coming back into the hive, the rate of stores usage is reduced.
If we had a very cold winter, on the other hand, our bees would use more stores because they might actually cluster during the day instead of just at night.
A warm winter in the North is unlikely to be that warm, and unlikely to generate much pollen or nectar. I'm imagining highs in the low 40s and lows just below freezing - but can anyone provide their actual numbers? The gist as I understand it is that in an icebound winter Northern bees would stay in tight cluster and burn stores as efficiently as possible. When it is warmer they sometimes break cluster or forage, losing heat and expending energy, but without finding forage.
So a warmer winter in the North decreases clustering behavior and heating efficiency without yielding bonus forage as it does in the South.
Well put caticind. I completely agree with your assessment. A 'mild' winter for us is usually a week to 10 days days above freezing :) over a 6-7 month period.
Despite the temps we've seen in the 40's throughout this winter we will be going below zero tommorrow night.
Because of these abnormal temp changes causing my bees to 'be much more active' this winter, thereby consuming the majority of their stores before the winter was half over, along w/ a total lack of 'any' forage from October through March (in N/W Wisconsin) explains especially well, the different challenges of Northern and Southern bees (and beeks :-D )
thomas