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BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: windfall on May 03, 2012, 10:46:22 PM

Title: stocking an observation hive
Post by: windfall on May 03, 2012, 10:46:22 PM
What would be my best choices for stocking a 3 frame (deeps) observation hive?

I have ample resources among 3 thriving hives and some stored combs.

I don't mind taking the queen from one of the hives (if I can find her), but would be excited to watch them make a new queen.

So can a new 3 frame hive raise a tolerable queen?

What or how would folks put in the hive to start? With only 3 frames to work with what is the most critical part of the mix?

I am thinking a frame of open brood/eggs, and another of open and capped, then a frame of stores..should they be split 50/50 honey and pollen? should I try to use a frame with some empty comb in it as well?.

I like the idea of adding a few shakes of bees, but it seems tricky to shake bees into the ob hive. Perhaps initially put everything and the shakes in a nuc and then a while late move them to the OB hive and leave the box near the entrance to get loose bees?

Dandelion is going strong, apple a week away, drones flying.

thanks for your thoughts
Title: Re: stocking an observation hive
Post by: RandyMM on May 04, 2012, 12:38:00 AM
Interesting post. I'm no one to give advice, but it sounds like you have the right idea. That would be neat to watch the bees raise a queen, fill comb, etc.
Title: Re: stocking an observation hive
Post by: BlueBee on May 04, 2012, 01:55:29 AM
I can't say what is best for an observation hive, but I do know that 3 deeps is way more than is needed to raise a new queen.   My bees made new queens with just 4 mini mating frames; eggs in just one.  No extra bees shaken in either.  My mating frames are about 0.4 mediums in comb size.  So a colony the size of 1.6 medium frames can raise a queen; at least in a foam hive  :-D

Again, no experience with OB hives, but keep in mind that a deep of capped brood, or brood in general will probably yield you 3000+ new bees within a month.  2 deeps, 6000+ bees.  Could overwhelm a small space in a hurry.
Title: Re: stocking an observation hive
Post by: Grandpa Jim on May 04, 2012, 02:42:10 AM
I have worked with a 2 deep OH for the last 5 years.  I would put one frame with new eggs and some honey and pollen (if you can find one like that this time of year).  Shake in a frame of nurse bees and two empty frames (with or without foundation).  They will grow into to very quickly this tin of year.  Mine is hard to keep this time of year (just grows too fast) so I usually break it down into a nuc and start it back up late summer.  They want to swarm with so little room. 

The queen process is so interesting to watch and hear.  A month ago mine began to build some queen cells so I pulled the queen and left them raise a new queen.  When the queen hatches she "pipes".  She was piping for about a week when we began to hear 2 queens, a day later a swarm left and I believe in a few more days the rest would have absconded, so I added a frame of eggs to hold them for a few more weeks as I had it booked for a 4 day school visit.  Now they have a full frame of capped brood again.  Last year they did a similar thing and I watched as they surrounded and guarded a second queen cell from the first hatched queen.

If you want to keep them going you will have to remove a frame or two of bees and brood every so often depending on how fast they are growing.  Last year I would replace one frame with just an empty frame no foundation.  You will be amazed how fast they fill the frame with comb.  You will learn so much from your OH.  Have fun!
Title: Re: stocking an observation hive
Post by: Michael Bush on May 04, 2012, 04:01:22 AM
>So can a new 3 frame hive raise a tolerable queen?

It's all about bee density, not hive size.  Yes, if it's crowded.
Title: Re: stocking an observation hive
Post by: windfall on May 04, 2012, 09:18:41 AM
Thanks all,

Bluebee and grandpajim, you guys make it sound like I should be able to stock it and let them raise their own right off. That's great, it's what I had hoped to do.

GrandpaJIm, your suggesting starting off with just 1 loaded frame, that surprised me. I had wanted to watch them draw comb very much, but assumed I would need to wait for them to get established with a field force of some sort first. I should point out that all my bees are in the "backyard" so I will certainly be losing the field bees back to parent hive.

But if I can stock the hive with 2 mixed brood/store frames, and 1 empty or partially drawn foundationless frame, a few shakes and no queen right from the start....that sounds near perfect for me.  How will it be on the bees? Is that trying to do too much at once?

How are you adding shakes of bees to your OBhive? I would think if you laid it flat, the combs will crush a lot of bees on that side against the glass, even with their tops locked in center?

Michael, I appreciate your point about bee density. Any chance you can put some sort of quantifier on that. At my experience level that's still a hard thing to evaluate.
Title: Re: stocking an observation hive
Post by: D Coates on May 04, 2012, 10:41:00 AM
I've had a 5 frame OB hive for 3 years now.  I steal a frame of two of brood or stores as soon as they start getting crowded.  With 3 frames you're going to need to keep an eye on them regularly.  From my experience, don't expect to see them do much comb building.  The need it hot and, my hive is in an air conditioned office.  I also keep the population full but not high enough to warrant swarming, installing drawn but empty frames when I steal brood or stores.

For you one I'd also recommend 1 frame of open brood with at tendents, 1 frame of stores, 1 empty but drawn frame, a shaken frame or two of bees over the top and one queen.  To shake off the bees leave the hive upright and shake at an angle.  Some will make it other won't and those that don't will be looking for their queen.  There will be some consfusion as you're doing this.  I did it on a Saturday morning figuring by the time business started Monday morning everything would be calm.  Fortunately for me they followed the plans and they've been in there ever since.

I've had them requeen every year so far and they are VERY quick to suddenly overpopulate the hive so keep a very close eye on them.  Personally because I'm in a business I can't afford this hive to swarm in any way shape or form for fear of it occurring during business hours, especially during break so I made the hive bigger than average and check them every business day at least twice.
Title: Re: stocking an observation hive
Post by: Grandpa Jim on May 04, 2012, 06:43:28 PM
Putting in the frame with some open larva and eggs you will have mostly young bees on that frame.  You will loose some back to the parent hive, but it will not be long before you have a field force again.  If the comb is old and tough you should break down the cell walls of some cells with eggs or just hatched larva.  With the extra frame or two of shaken bees you will have the density of bees to raise your new queen and begin drawing comb.  They will not break any records drawing comb but they will do it when needed.  Not any different than a small virgin swarm leaving a hive and starting out in a new location (really just 2 weeks different till they have a virgin queen), except they will have it easier as you can feed them to help them along, if needed.  You will also have the brood in that first frame that will be hatching.  If you feel you need to boost the population later you could always add a frame of hatching brood.  Because they have to raise a queen they may not draw that quickly but your not really in a hurry, you want to watch and learn.

Almost anything that you decide to do will work, you just don't want to over populate your OH right from the start.  Let them grow into it.

One other thing, if you are having them draw without foundation, I would put that single frame, with larva, on top so the bees can begin drawing on the top of the frame below rather than on the bottom where they would have to skip to the top of the second frame to begin drawing.  Seems backwards, but I think they would do a better job.  If you are giving them foundation then it really would not matter.

Jim
Title: Re: stocking an observation hive
Post by: windfall on May 04, 2012, 10:09:05 PM
 I sure do appreciate the input.

It sounds like giving them two frames of brood, a full frame of stores and the queen during the spring build would have been too much.
I don't mind if they are slow (and to hear what Grandpa and D Coates say perhaps desirable) but I don't want to stress them any more than I have to in the weird 1 frame thick hive.

I hope to do the work tomorrow, I will just see if I find the queen or not and adjust brood up or down accordingly. I may not look very hard, as I reallly would enjoy watching the Q-cells get made and all that might follow.

I have a couple of 1/2 drawn foundationless frames, so there might be some room to see them draw comb and give them empty to work.

thanks
Title: Re: stocking an observation hive
Post by: Michael Bush on May 05, 2012, 06:49:36 AM
>Michael, I appreciate your point about bee density. Any chance you can put some sort of quantifier on that. At my experience level that's still a hard thing to evaluate.

If they don't all fit in the hive, they have enough bees to raise a high quality queen...