Have a single hive and the population does not seem to be growing as fast as I would expect. Queen has good brood pattern, but can't get it beyond two 8 frame mediums after 8 weeks. Outside frames are not drawn in either medium. Honey and pollen stores seem adequate. Nights have been in the high 50s and low 60s. Daytime temps running in the high 70s and low 80s. Are low temps a factor? Normal??? NewBee seeking knowledge.
Move the outer drawn frames out, especially the frames with the most pollen, and the undrawn in and see what happens.
Iddee's answer should fix your empty frames. When you change the frames around keep an eye on them because their are already 75% full. Good luck with your bees.
Joe
hows the weather?
Impossible to say what it should be. From where you started ? And how cold hive has been when you have given space.
Queens are not alike. Some are able to lay 2 boxes full and some only 6-8 frames. Excluder is a bad barrier of build up if you use it.
If you have another hive, then you can compare. Mission Impossible to say, what is your hive and what are your skills. "Best beekeepers" may loose 2 swarm in 8 weeks when they feed so much tiny hives.
Quote from: jataylor on June 15, 2012, 02:12:29 PM
Have a single hive and the population does not seem to be growing as fast as I would expect. Queen has good brood pattern, but can't get it beyond two 8 frame mediums after 8 weeks. Outside frames are not drawn in either medium. Honey and pollen stores seem adequate. Nights have been in the high 50s and low 60s. Daytime temps running in the high 70s and low 80s. Are low temps a factor? Normal??? NewBee seeking knowledge.
sounds on track to me -I am assuming that you are drawing out the foundation during this growth process
there are ways to push the colony -try some thin syrup--RDY-B
Quote from: rdy-b on June 16, 2012, 02:46:38 AM
there are ways to push the colony -try some thin syrup--RDY-B
GOOOOOD heavens!!!. You can only spoil the colony with feeding.
BYE A NEW QUEEN!!!!
The cost of queen is equal 3 kg honey.
If nosema has spoiled the queen, its laying becomes perhaps to zero.
Then some one advices that rear your own free virgin and take a daughter from a sick queen.
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Quote from: Finski on June 16, 2012, 11:33:56 AM
Quote from: rdy-b on June 16, 2012, 02:46:38 AM
there are ways to push the colony -try some thin syrup--RDY-B
GOOOOOD heavens!!!. You can only spoil the colony with feeding.
BYE A NEW QUEEN!!!!
The cost of queen is equal 3 kg honey.
If nosema has spoiled the queen, its laying becomes perhaps to zero.
Then some one advices that rear your own free virgin and take a daughter from a sick queen.
.
GOOD HEAVENS HE STARTED FROM ZERO AND IS ONLY 8 WEEKS INTO IT-NOTHING IS SPOILED --THERES ONLY BEEN
TWO FULL ROUNDS OF BROOD PRODUCED-NOT EVEN ENOUGH TIME TO NOTICE A DECLINE- 8-) If he is drawing out his foundation at this time a litel push wont hurt a thing--- ;) RDY-B
Quote from: rdy-b on June 16, 2012, 02:16:14 PM
GOOD HEAVENS HE STARTED FROM ZERO
AND IS ONLY 8 WEEKS INTO IT-NOTHING IS SPOILED --THERES ONLY BEEN
TWO FULL ROUNDS OF BROOD PRODUCED-NOT EVEN ENOUGH TIME TO NOTICE A DECLINE- 8-) If he is drawing out his foundation at this time a litel push wont hurt a thing--- ;) RDY-B
No one start from zero.
You, as experienced beekeeper should know that biggest problem with small colonies is that they fill frames with honey and nectar and the brood area will reduced. AND YOU SAY FEED FEED FEED FEED IN THE MIDDLE OF SUMMER.
Why don't you say that just wait that brood cycles add the size of the clony.
SAY IT!
**You, as experienced beekeeper should know that biggest problem with small colonies is that they fill frames with honey and nectar and the brood area will reduced. AND YOU SAY FEED FEED FEED FEED IN THE MIDDLE OF SUMMER.**
yes that can be a problem if you are feeding a heavy syrup--thin syrup is more of a stimulant and will make them
draw wax-compared to plugin out the cell that the queen needs to lay in--getting your frames drawn out is key to
meeting the enviormental time frame for any given location of beekeeping-we are all on diferant time frames but we must all meet milestones in order to advance to the next leval-- :angel:
**Why don't you say that just wait that brood cycles add the size of the clony.
SAY IT!**
IT :-*
there are times when you can keep bees or have them as pets--we as beekeepers have the ability to decide and preform manipulation to our colonies that will bring the best results for our circumstance--the original poster is exploring different ideas as to colony strength for his bees-I can provide him with techniques to speed them up or even slow them down -I am master in my bee yard- I decide --not the bees--but you already know that-- :lol: 8-) RDY-B
Quote from: rdy-b on June 16, 2012, 03:59:53 PM
draw wax-compared to plugin out the cell that the queen needs to lay in--getting your frames drawn out is key to
I have not noticed that comb building is the key to build up???
What I have noticed is
- a size of the start
- the heat economy of the hive: insulation and reduced ventilation
- a limiting factor is when the colony gets more members. A queen lays the frames full in a week
and it is difficult to get more brood. If you think to add combs, bees cannot keep them warm.
Brood cycle is 3 weeks and to feed couple of days has no meaning.
When I started beekeeping, I bought lots of swarms. I noticed that 2 langsroth boxes of bees is optimal size. It is 8 lbs swarm bees.
I feeded the swarms that they may draw the combs in a week.
Then they got from nature the food. 8 lbs bees brought 80 lbs honey to be extracted. Further more the colonies drew 3 boxes foundations . The year was something 1966 and 67.
4 lbs colony could not get surplus. Honey and brood were in same frames. It was a prison of small space.
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Quote from: jataylor on June 15, 2012, 02:12:29 PM
Have a single hive and the population does not seem to be growing as fast as I would expect. Queen has good brood pattern, but can't get it beyond two 8 frame mediums after 8 weeks.
If you started from a package 8 weeks ago, it sounds like you are doing fine. In the beginning a package's brood production comes in spurts. The queen lays a first round of brood.... as many larvae as the nurse population will permit. Then nothing happens for 3 weeks until a new crop of bees emerges to become nurse bees for the next generation. Then there is another round of laying. In the meantime, the original foragers are dying of old age.... so the total population of a package hive decreases for the first month at least. If your queen has a good pattern, you have nothing to worry about.
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So it goes like Frameshift says it. What you can do is wait.
When I start to feed bees after winter, it takes 7 weeks that the colony has same strenght as in the beginning. All wintered bees have died and and after that the colony start to "build up".
When I nursed swarms long time ago, It took about 4 weeks that new bees start to emerge. Before that the bee number was half from the start. So it is 4 weeks gap when no new bees emerged (compared to nuc).
3 weeks cycle is theory = first egg and first emerged bee. Not much. And the queen does not start laying in first day even if it has ready combs.
4 weeks = one week laying has been emerged. Maybe 2 frames.
.
**I have not noticed that comb building is the key to build up???**
IT is if you start with fpundation only--no brainer- :?
** I feeded the swarms that they may draw the combs in a week.**
how about that-and what if there was no flow would you stop- :-P
**Then nothing happens for 3 weeks until a new crop of bees emerges to become nurse bees for the next generation. Then there is another round of laying. In the meantime, the original foragers are dying of old age.... so the total population of a package hive decreases for **
you say nothing hapens - :) heres what happens the queen never stops laying--she lays as fast as they draw open cells
the population draws wax so there is room for her to lay-the population prepares a area suroumded by a arch of food stores for the nures bees to tend the larvea-there is much going on in the first three weeks
:lol: there is no debate as to the progres the colony is made -but there seams to be a reluctance to accepting the fact that it is posible to ramp up the natural proces and create a population explosion-- finski have you changed your Hat
and now let the bees keep you- ;) you post many posts of ways you push your bees for a spring build up-then you hand out advice as to the tune that requeening cures all- :lol: back to the drawing board--RDY-B
Quote from: rdy-b on June 16, 2012, 06:43:00 PM
**Then nothing happens for 3 weeks until a new crop of bees emerges to become nurse bees for the next generation. Then there is another round of laying. In the meantime, the original foragers are dying of old age.... so the total population of a package hive decreases for **
you say nothing hapens - :) heres what happens the queen never stops laying--she lays as fast as they draw open cells
Sure, they draw comb after the first round of laying. And the queen will continue laying where she can. But those eggs will be eaten because there will be no nurse bees to care for them. Surplus and worker-laid eggs are eaten in the hive constantly. For a three week period (ok it's longer as Finski says) there are no new nurse bees and so there is a limit to brood production. I've idealized it by assuming the package is installed on drawn comb, so the first round of laying is a fast event. If you start without drawn comb, then the whole process gets smeared out in time as the queen waits for space to lay.
** If you start without drawn comb, then the whole process gets smeared out in time as the queen waits for space to lay*
thats the point of ramping up the comb building proces-when you start with foundation-and adding a third medium will
be equal to a double deep box-but he will need to get it drawn--my whole premise is for starting with foundation--
so you say they ate all the eggs-Just kiding :lau: :th_thumbsupup: RDY-B
Quote from: rdy-b on June 16, 2012, 10:39:25 PM
thats the point of ramping up the comb building proces-when you start with foundation-
Yes, when I start without enough drawn comb, I always feed new packages, even in a flow. As far as I know, it's the house bees that are collecting the syrup from a top feeder, which is what I use. If they can collect the necessary sugar, it frees up the foragers to collect more pollen. Now THAT stimulates brood production. :-D
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Actually, when you start in summer condition a new hive, you put a swarm or package into a hive, you need not to be very smart and the bees do the rest.
When a swarm escape and make its own hive into a cavity, they do it and they need not help in that job.
TRUTH IS that a beekeeper does not need not to know anything. BUt what happens then when a new beekeper asks in internet what to do. Then he will be in trouble and hive too.
I undestand that when you get a package so early in spring that nature has no food or weathers are bad.
SECOND TRUTH IS that I have spoken in this forum several years that don't feed your colonies like pigs. It helps nothing.
And avoid foundations... not wise at all...
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Quote from: Finski on June 17, 2012, 01:18:10 AM
When a swarm escape and make its own hive into a cavity, they do it and they need not help in that job.
The great majority of those swarms do not survive the following winter. The Hive and the Honeybee notes a study showing that in upstate New York, only 5% of swarms survive the winter.
I don't feed for very long. Maybe two weeks at most. But it's at that critical time when they need to draw comb. Wax is synthesized de novo from sugar. So it's not about the nutritional value of the syrup ( I agree that nectar would be better for that). It's just about making wax fast so the queen can lay.
But better than feeding is just using drawn comb. No delay at all.
**But better than feeding is just using drawn comb. No delay at all.**
your on the right track-but if there is no drawn comb :?--this isn't feeding its getting your bees to secrete wax by stimulating them with thin syrup--back to the debate about feeding-- :-P
increase the rate which comb is drawn is one part of it -there are also ways to increase the rate which brood itself is reared-anyone know anything about that ??? perhaps if there was a internet connection when finman started keeping bees
he would have both hands on the steering wheel- right now i think he is in the middle of the road 8-) --RDY-B
Quote from: rdy-b on June 17, 2012, 02:17:47 AM
--this isn't feeding its getting your bees to secrete wax by stimulating them with thin syrup-
It's not about bee nutrition, true. But why use thin syrup? I think the bees are already stimulated to make wax at that point. They need the space, but they may not have enough sugar to make enough wax quickly. I use 5:3 for all purposes. The idea is to get the sugar into the bees and the wax out of the bees as fast as possible. Doesn't more dense syrup get the sugar into the bees faster and more efficiently?
thin syrup emulates nectar-they digest nectar for food source--they treat thick syrup like honey run it through
there honey gut adding enzymes so they can store it without fermentation -nectar is bees first food choices
honey is simply there form of hard tack-so they have food source when there is no bloom-put out a bowl of honey and also a bowl of thin syrup and they will take down the thin syrup first--RDY-B
WOW! Didn't realize that a simple question could raise such a ruckus! Lots of good info and I appreciate the opportunity to glean all this great knowledge as a NewBee! Temps did warm up this week and when I opened the hive on Saturday, lots of activity. Still great laying patter by queen and frames filled out. Put on a another 8 frame super. Lots of activity at the hive entrance coming and going yesterday and today. Heavy pollen loads coming in. Figure it was just a matter of time and some warming up. Think we are going to be OK! Thanks for the dialogue!
Quote from: jataylor on June 18, 2012, 09:15:47 PM
WOW! Didn't realize that a simple question could raise such a ruckus!
Guys have done this simple thing very difficult.
First of all, bees need not draw combs fast. They do what they do. Some faster than others.
Worst is filling cells with sugar and then the cells are not avaiable for brood.
I have used 20% syrup to swarms. When bees store the syrup, they build wall of cell but they cannot store and cap the sugar. It works fine. The strength of syrup is not written in law book.
I have feeded hundreds of swarms in my life and there is nothing strange of difficult in that.
But everybody should look inside the hive that what they are doing that new combs will be not filled with nectar+sugar. Sometimes nectar flow is so big in nature that it fills all combs even if you do not feed them.
Bees spead the nectar on wider area than honey.
Just now we have swarming time and raspberry gives a huge load of nectar. It is better not to feed, unless weathers are rainy.
.
**WOW! Didn't realize that a simple question could raise such a ruckus!**
:beemaster:
**Bees spead the nectar on wider area than honey.**
could you tell us why this is --rockstar-- :lol:
;) RDY-B
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Try to quess