Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

Hi all,

In addition to my single backyard hive in suburban Melbourne, I plan to put a few hives out on my bush block next season (it's early summer here now).  It's about 2 hours drive away and is 100 acres of flowering eucalyps with a nice big dam.

Needless to say, it's a very attractive spot for bees, and I have found two feral hives there already.  I'd rather not have feral hives competing with my girls (and potentially spreading disease, robbing, etc) so I would like to either capture them or remove them.

Problem is, one is about 5-6 metres up in a tree hollow, and the other is at least 7-8 metres up in a hollow of another tree.  From the Google research I've done, it seems that a serious effort would involve cutting down the tree, cutting up the logs, and wiring the comb into new frames.

Downside: sounds dangerous, especially for a newbie.  Plus I lose two trees.
Upside: I get two new colonies plus hopefully a bunch of local honey!

Option 2:  I could shoot the tree trunk in a few strategic places around where the hive may be in the hollow.  Calibers I have available include either a .22LR or a .308Win.  The former would be unlikely to penetrate into the colony, but might anger them up a bit and get them moving.  The .308 would make a real mess of everything and possibly take down the top of the tree.  I guess the colony might then be happy to move into a nearby hive baited with lemongrass oil?  Or perhaps they might even swarm and be easier to capture then?

Downside:  The colony might get severely messed up, but could end up just rebuilding in the same or another hollow rather than relocating to my hive.  I don't get any wild honey.  I kill lots of bees.  Seems rather crude and brutal.
Upside: Easy option.  Can be done from a safe distance.

Any thoughts on my crazy ideas?  Also, what part of the season would be good for this?  We're getting into peak nectar flow time here.

Cheers!

Mike

Just so you get an idea of the environment...

I've circled the entrances in red.

Entrance 5-6m high.

(http://static.flickr.com/34/73401499_70811d2b4a_o.jpg)

Taller tree.  Entrance is 7-8m high.

(http://static.flickr.com/35/73401500_67f96976bb_o.jpg)[/img]

Shooting them will, in no way, encourage them to leave.  You can try the screen cone method and keep siphoning bees of of the tree hives.  Or you can cut an opening large enough to reach in and cut out the combs.  Or you can cut down the tree and split it open, but that's likely to do so much damage that half the bees die anyway.

You can set swarm traps, but I'd put them at least a clouple of hundred yards away.  A mile wouldn't hurt.  And that's just like fishing except only one fish a year comes by.  :)

I have read that you have a lot of feral hives there. Endless story if you are going to kill or catch them. There may bee diseases.

But As I have read it is easy to put boxes with hive foundations and you will get  a lot of swarms. And then you put swarms together and order them to cather honey to you.

Bees fly at the distance og 1-2 mile and you have there tens of feral hives.

Michael has given you a couple of options Another is if you have the time you could set a bait hive up nearby but not to close and after a couple of days, heavy smoke the hive and keep it up for some time and drive them out. They may move into your bait hive if not at least they have gone from the area and you have not killed them.

Quote from: DiverThey may move into your bait hive if not at least they have gone from the area and you have not killed them.

Do you know that in Australia there may be 50 - 100 feral hives per square kilometer?

Bees fligt area  is  3,14 x 2x2 = 12 square kilometer.
Radius 2 km.

Hey Finsky,

Is there any reason Austrailia has so many feral hives?  Is it lack or lowered amount of mites?

QuoteI'd rather not have feral hives competing with my girls

I think there's probably more then enough to go around!!!!!!

Quoteand is 100 acres of flowering eucalyps with a nice big dam.

If bees fly two miles from their colony they have over 8000 acres to forage!!

Quote(and potentially spreading disease, robbing, etc)

well, for robbing you can try a robbing screen at the entrance.
and as for disease , you might be better off choosing a good queen.
FERAL HIVES? DID SOMEONE SAY FREE BEES
I would do like Michael Bush says about the screen cone method
get them out of the trees and in to boxes so you can get more
HONEY!!!! :D
DON'T SHOOT AT THEM ITS KINDA MEAN.

I thought you all had to turn in your guns or keep them at a gun club locked up?

  But why would you shoot the hive?  But the idea of free bees is tempting.  Do you have access to a cherry picker to reach the entrance and take a look at least?  Maybe use also to try and hive them up in your boxes?

David

Quote from: bassman1977Hey Finsky,

Is there any reason Austrailia has so many feral hives?  Is it lack or lowered amount of mites?

Yes. Australia is only place where varroa is missing. New Zeland has.

Yes we are Varroa free, this helps. Eucalypt forrests shed branches regularly and leave many hollows suitable for bees to take up residence.

I have been working with ferals in Australia for the last 6 months and another problem has arisen. Suddenly we are getting extraordinary numbers of hive beetles (500 plus) in bushland bee sites. Feral cavities are an excellent habitat for the little pests.

I must stress Australia is a big place, much of the centre being desert. The 50-100 feral colonies per square kilometre is only in woodlands of thick bush eucalypts.

Serapax it looks as if you have plenty of trees & the photos seem to suggest that there are already some dead spars standing. I would be inclined to fall the trees as once they have opened up & have hollows they are not going to last for ever.
         Not knowing your circumstances the trees would probably be OK for firewood if you could use it.

Thanks to all for the advice.  Lots to think about!

I really don't want to harm the bees.....I'm thinking more of a few well placed shots well below the hive to fell the top half of the tree so I could then access them from the ground.

Unfortunately I don't have access to a cherry picker - and certainly not a 4WD one that I'd need to access these spots!

What if I felled the trees and let them lie for a few weeks to get over the shock - then used a one-way funnel to capture them as suggested?

Cheers!

Mike

Hi Geoff - yes, I certainly have enough trees that I won't miss a few!  I'm just reluctant because I've never felled trees that large before.  My wife is convinced I'll drop one on my head....

My block is at Gormandale (about 20 mins south of Traralgon) so Yinnar is quite close to me!  I would love to hear how you're finding the beekeeping in the area.

Cheers!

Mike

Quote from: GeoffNot knowing your circumstances the trees would probably be OK for firewood if you could use it.

In our country this kind of machines classify tree trunks according of species and thicness. Computer sends to factory data, what kind of wood  they cutted in the forest.  Rotten and damaged trees go into power stations of pulp factory. They are crushed to chips.

IMO there are some things with bees that are not worth doing and your's is one of them.  

You cannot keep feral colonies from doing what they want to do where ever and when ever.  

Now if your desire is to experiment with capturing feral colonies then try your ideas and all the different ideas posted above.  

There is not much to transferring feral colonies into hive boxes if you have easy access to the feral colonies and but felling such a large tree as depicted in your pics doesn't make much sense just to get some " free ?" bees.  

Then again if your tree has cavities it may well be doomed anyway so cutting it down would free up some space for other trees. Do eucs make good lumber :?:

Also the idea of your hived bees having to  compet with feral bees is a non starter because lets face it, you are thinking in terms of controlling nature.  Mother nature knows. :lol:

If there are in fact many feral colonies and swarming in AZ you would be better served to place swarm/baited hive boxes at random locations and wait to see what happens. In the meantime you can spend some of your  time explaining to your wife what a " cluster " is. :wink:

Good luck

hi,
Jack,

QuoteDo eucs make good lumber  

no they twist like crazy when they dry!

if it were me, I would get a ladder and do the cone method
yes its alot of work for free bees, but is there really anything thats free
in this world?
 the bees will work and the bees will swarm, this is a given.
with that many feral bees it seems to me if you get rid of one or two
there is probably 50 or more ready to take there place. but if you help them
by providing homes for them, then they'll be working for you!!!!!!
And thats one of the big reasons we all do this
aside from the joy of it all.
   with that many ferals per kilometer it seems one could make a good
buissness out of it all I.E. ( managing hives,selling honey and bee related
items, catching swarms that people dont want,hell they might even pay you!!!!!!!! nothing better then to get paid for what you like to do.........

Cool, another aussie! Welome!

I live in Healesville, when I'm in Australia. Been in Europe since April though.

If you go to the Bindaree bee supples website (they are in Canberra), they have a few pics of removing feral hives on that site.

In regards to feral hive quantities, I'll send an email to one of the apiary inspectors to see if he has any figures.

How many Australian's are on this board now? Anyone know?


James.

Quote from: Russel GoodmanTo obtain information on the number and density of feral honeybee colonies in the Goulburn Valley a survey was conducted during 1994-95 in three categories of remnant native forest/woodland stands, namely roadside strips, river frontage blocks and other blocks within the five major fruit growing districts of Cobram, Invergordon, Kyabram/Merrigum, Shepparton East and Tatura/Ardmona.

The number of feral colonies in survey blocks measuring approximately 30,000 m² in area ranged from nil to 12 colonies. The highest concentration of feral colonies occurred in the Invergordon and Kyabram districts (1.3 and 1.2 colonies/ha respectively) while the highest number of colonies per tree (7.8 colonies/100 trees) occurred in the Tatura/Ardmona district. Of the three categories of remnant forest/woodland blocks, river frontage blocks, had the lowest number of colonies per hectare and the lowest number of colonies per tree. In a separate survey of native and exotic trees on orchard properties, the Tatura/Ardmona district had a high number of feral colonies per tree (4.6 colonies/100 trees). On orchard properties, feral bees were also found nesting in walls of houses, sheds and pickers' huts.

The entire document can be found here. Note that this is only one region, although I think it provides somewhat of a guidline. Still trying to

I'll post a link to it along with a whole other heap of useful Australian links I'm organising in the reprint archive eventually. Serapax I love those pics, they remind me of home and the lovely warm weather soooo much. Feel free to post more! Some annoying kids have arrived in the internet cafe, so I'd better go before my blood pressure rises too much and I start..........never mind.

James.

Quote from: Finsky

In our country this kind of machines classify tree trunks according of species and thicness. Computer sends to factory data, what kind of wood  they cutted in the forest.  Rotten and damaged trees go into power stations of pulp factory. They are crushed to chips.

Hey Finnman, that's what I drive!! I find that arm out in front very helpful when parking!! :D

Quote from: Jay
Hey Finnman, that's what I drive!! I find that arm out in front very helpful when parking!! :D

Yep! It is nice to put coin into parking meter with that arm. 8)

Fineman,  we are now using credit cards for parking meters, in some cities.

If you over stay your parking you also receive a fine/ticket along with the parking fees charged. :cry:

Is that  machine made in Finland?

Quote from: Jack Parr
Is that  machine made in Finland?

Yes, we have a couple of companies which make these type of machines.
40 years ago we cut trees with muscles. Even chainsaws were rare. This machine makes 70 muscle men's work per hour.

Just now we have dark day around and machines work  with their help of their numerous lights in woods.

Fineman, forty years ago we did more with less also but chainsaws have been around for far longer than that. I used chain saws 40 years ago. I did use a cross cut saw when I was very young, with my father, cutting firewood.

Those machines are readily seen in the pine  forest over here.  If there is ever any machine made for anything, to increase production and eliminate labor that is what we do.  

I do know that along with" Nokia ", Finland does manufactor forest and paper mill/paper making equiptment.  Other than that I'm afraid most people over here have little knowledge of Finland. In fact Nokia is thought to be a Japanese company :cry:  I am looking at my Nokia  cell as I write.
So, don't feel too bad. :P

Opps this is supposed to be about bees. Well bees live in trees don't they so we should not be reprimanded. :D

Quote from: Jack Parrpeople over here have little knowledge of Finland. In fact Nokia is thought to be a Japanese company :cry:  I am looking at my D

If you see elevators in buildings KONE (=machine) is from here. It is global.
Fisching with Rapala is from here.

Our industry started actually 60 years ago when we had to pay "war compensations" to our nabour Soviet Union.  100 years ago we were good  of Russian emperor.  Before that we were under Sweden.

And SAUNA is Finnish word but sauna come here from Russia.

czar Nikolay II (1868â€"1918) was the last prince of Finland and the Russian Emperor.  After that we have drawn a low profile.  :P

I am aware of Finland's low profile to keep the Russian monster from your door.

Compared to other countries in the Russian iron grip, Finland managed to avoid the worst of the abuse. But there  never was much mention of Finland in the press except when Reagan met Gorby in Finland  which gave your country a brief exposee' on the world media scene.  

I wonder if they mentioned bees? :wink:  

It's 0625 here.  What time are you?  

What is the price of honey in Finland? At the stores or markets? Do you personally sell your production?  Use Euros, I am familiar with Euros. MY wife is from France.  She's my " honey " although very mature honey :(

Quote from: Jack Parr
It's 0625 here.  What time are you?  

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/

Helsinki  15.31  and Los Angeles 05.31
The difference is 10 hours.

Does your clock go to wrong direction?

Quote

What is the price of honey in Finland? At the stores or markets? Do you personally sell your production?  

In stores Finnish honey is about 4-4,5 euros  per one lbs. It about same in US dollars.  I sell almost all myself.  I take about 3 â,¬/ 1 lbs jar. I must expand my markets.

But to me to stir at stock market prices is more usefull.  8) http://www.eqonline.fi/

We have more and more foreign honey products for sale.  We got a good yield this summer and beekeekeprs wonder where they put their jars  :roll:

Temperature is here about  -5C - - 10C. No snow in Helsinki.

LA is for Louisiana, a state in the central time zone of the US. Where the hurricanes Katrina and Rita struck, near New Opleans LA.   LA is also used for Los Angles CA.  Not the same thing but maybe confusing for some.

That would be 8 hours difference between you and me. We have four time zones here. It is now 20:24.

I sell/sold my honey, at first,  $ 3.00 per US pound ( 454 ) grams. then I went up to $ 4.00.  The plastic one pound plastic bottles cost $ .50.

The Euro is currently at $ 1.20.  E 3.00 = $ 3.60, you sell for a reasonable price.  
             
 The stores have different prices for different honey.  The most expensive is orange blossom/citrus honey, I think.  There are some limited supplies of exotic honey that come from limited areas of the country and those tend to command a premium price.

I will visit a lady that specializes in " varitel "? in a few days, sample, and purchase a few different types.  I will know more about that later.

The large producers here in the US are not receiving very much for their bulk honey however, much to their discontent. Around $ .50 I understand.
Not a very exciting enviroment to be in the honey production business right now.

Quote from: Jack Parr
I sell/sold my honey, at first,  $ 3.00 per US pound ( 454 ) grams. then I went up to $ 4.00.  The plastic one pound plastic bottles cost $ .50.

The Euro is currently at $ 1.20.  E 3.00 = $ 3.60, you sell for a reasonable price.  
             
 The stores have different prices for different honey.  .

Our honey flow season is very short. It is normally July. And the yield, which we can extract, some year it comes at the beginning or late of July. It comes normally during fine weather and we need  2 week to get it in.

I try to catch canola and fireweed and in June dandelion. Canola and fireweed are quite mild alone and all together they are tasty. That timber machine is very useful. After it's work cut woodland is full of fireweed.

I cannot give any guarantee that taste of this plant honey continues next summer.  Dandelion gives honey 50% insurance, canola and fireweed 90% and some special plants with 20%.

Some professionals here are specialized to "specie honeys" , but it is not worth to do it. My clients are mostly users who consumes several kilos honey per year.

I have tried to catch some special honey but it cannot be ordered.

Just had to reply here!!! If you really care about bees let the feral colonies prosper! They just might hold the answer to some of the crucial problems we all face as beekeepers(not beehavers as George Imrie would say) and honey producers. The drones from these feral colonies provide some of the genetic diversity that helps in building SURVIVOR stock. We must not forget that almost all the bee breeding done over the past few centuries has focused on honey and not survivability. Let the feral colonies flourish and they will return your kindness one-thousand fold!!!!!!!!!!