I need a clean effective way to kill one of my hives. I would like to be able to salvage the honey and comb. I have to stop my efforts to requeen them due to my host being chased out of his garden. As soon as he told me about this I assured him I would kill the problem hive immediately.
I will have to close the entrance off in the evening to lock them all in but am unsure how to complete the kill. Any ideas?
Old Blue
With no time to requeen :( In.....
Kali-bone-ya
When AFB is reported in Australia, the colony has to be killed and equipment either burned or irradiated. The suggested method to kill the colony is to pour a cup of petrol into the hive - very effective but unfortunately it is not very friendly to honey. I have had to do this but for hives where I wanted to save the honey etc, I used a small amount of high % alcohol which did the trick ( 95% proof spirits is ideal). As long as the hive is closed and well sealed, the alcohol fumes will put them to sleep very quickly and no nasty fumes in honey. Just pour the alcohol along the walls and seal the hive.
You can also shake them into a tub of soapy water if you don't have a supply of suitable high proof moonshine available. It's pretty sad to watch, but at least your combs and boxes won't be damaged or have any chemical taints. I suppose that, you may still get a few emerging brood from the combs, but a trip to the freezer for a couple of hours would kill any remaining larva etc. If you use petrol, then you pretty much have to burn everything because of the contamination - not sure about the consequences of using alcohol though.
Simon
A 2gal garden sprsyer with soapy water. No need to wait just lift the lid snd spray. Put enough soap in the water to make bubbles. :( This is acquired knowledge not experience. Not sure if this effects the comb, open nectar would be tainted.
Don't know the specifics, and have never done it. However, I've read somewhere....possibly on this forum that Dry Ice is a very affective method for doing this. I want to say you put a small amount under the inner cover and seal the hive, and it does the trick.
I'll see what I can find....
OK...Found the thread, it was D Coates with the suggestion....unfortunately, I have no idea how much dry ice would be "enough". Maybe he'll see the thread and chime in, or you could PM him, or you could just use a mess load of dry ice. :laugh:
Here's the LINK (http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,38588.msg323929.html#msg323929) to the original thread where he makes the suggestion...it's the third reply to the OP.
Dude......don't kill them!!!! Move them somewhere else, sell them to someone who will care for them, put them on craigslist or something. We have enough bee loss due to unknown circumstances, knowingly killing them isn't good.
CBLewis;
I disagree, these have a hint of AHB in the first post and that line should now perpetuate if even in question.
Quote from: JackM on June 03, 2013, 08:53:59 AM
CBLewis;
I disagree, these have a hint of AHB in the first post and that line should now perpetuate if even in question.
[/q
The poster only said it is a hot hive that is chasing the person keeping the bee for them. No need to kill but move them.
Blanc
Not sure how you got that. The original poster says the gardener was chased away, nothing about AHB (I'm assuming you mean Africanized Honey Bee). I would be curious what he means by "chased". We all know folks who are paranoid about "bees" in general because they think any flying insect is a "bee". And If they are AHB, i think you mean they should NOT perpetuate instead of "now perpetuate".
I guess in short, they are his bees, kill them if you want.
2 lb. block of Dry Ice. Put under cover, in top super. Pull a garbage bag over the hive, tape down. Will suffocate the hive without harming the honey. I have done this to a AHB colony in ?2007, after getting the tip on this forum.
Interior San Diego county has endemic AHB. Blue was the keep that was stung so badly he passed out at the drug store looking for Benadryl. Saved by the paramedics.
Save a jar of bees, so the AHB quick tests can be run. This is measuring the length of the forewing (over/under 3/8")
Strong hives, ready to swarm, in California dry heat (it was 108 in the interior of my county this weekend) are aggressive and defensive. Placed in an out-of-the-way yard and left alone, the hive may somewhat recover its composure. But more likely, Blue wild swarms, and naturally requeened hives have gone AHB.
That said, most hives will lose defensiveness if split down to nucs. All the queenless ones can be requeened with known gentle bloodlines.
Quote from: Old Blue on June 03, 2013, 03:00:39 AM
I need a clean effective way to kill one of my hives. I would like to be able to salvage the honey and comb. I have to stop my efforts to requeen them due to my host being chased out of his garden. As soon as he told me about this I assured him I would kill the problem hive immediately.
I will have to close the entrance off in the evening to lock them all in but am unsure how to complete the kill. Any ideas?
Old Blue
With no time to requeen :( In.....
Kali-bone-ya
Is this the only hive you got ???
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Many thanks to all for lots of good info. I will suffocate them.
I have to be able to kill them after I screen the entrance after dark - all of them have to be in the hive and this has to be carried out with no escapees. Suffocation sounds like the best way. Alcohol or dry ice sounds the best, I will think it through a bit before I give it a try. I plan on using all the equipment with a better batch of bees. I have several hives from whice to make nukes splits etc but now I will no longer be able to run feral bees. I am now forced into annual requeening and treatments for mites and everything else that the ferals were resistant to. I have already lost that option and am now trying to salvage domestic beekeeping at this point.
These are unworkable bees. I can not open the hive for any reason. The last time they were opened my host could not go out for two days and if this happens to any neighbors it will be the end of any beekeeping and another chunk of the population will be permanently against bees. I am used to dealing with feral bees and they are uppity - but this hive is on a whole different level and I can not allow this one to survive.
Old Blue
You want to bee careful with the dry ice method. It will work, but if you don't leave them exposed long enough, the CO2 will just anesthetize them and then they will all come back at once and that would stink for you. If you have a shop vac, you could try that too - maybe in conjunction with the dry ice.
to be sure, after you remove/dump the bees out of the hive, which should be done after they die down/go to sleep, then dump the lot into a bucket of soapy water without the comb. freezing them is fine if you care about recovery. dry ice is pretty cheap, use plenty.
Our state inspector uses starter fluid to exterminate hives. But I don't know if it ruins the honey or not. Take the honey frames off put in a box with a top bees and all carry the box a couple miles away then open the top and let the bees fly off. save your honey. Do you not have a place a few miles away you could take the hive after you screen the entrance and break the hive down into one box hives then in a few days give them all new queens?
Keep it simple. The dry ice and a trash bag is straightforward and fast. Just putting a plastic bag tightly over the hive will do the same thing but takes longer and I am not into taking longer to kill something. It will in no way hard the honey or combs either.
Back40 or 50 years ago we used to burn sulfur in an old smoker
to eliminate sick hives and colonies we could not gain control of.
Quote from: beek1951 on June 03, 2013, 09:45:53 PM
Back40 or 50 years ago we used to burn sulfur in an old smoker
to eliminate sick hives and colonies we could not gain control of.
The fascinating "Lower Saxony Heathland Beekeeping" series uses sulfur smudge to kill the skeps for harvest.
See Heathland Beekeeping - 6 - Autumn Work in a Heather Skep Apiary (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M788T26WIlY#)
It worth watching the whole series from start to finish.
Quote from: JWChesnut on June 03, 2013, 09:47:05 AM
2 lb. block of Dry Ice. Put under cover, in top super. Pull a garbage bag over the hive, tape down. Will suffocate the hive without harming the honey. I have done this to a AHB colony in ?2007, after getting the tip on this forum.
Interior San Diego county has endemic AHB. Blue was the keep that was stung so badly he passed out at the drug store looking for Benadryl. Saved by the paramedics.
Save a jar of bees, so the AHB quick tests can be run. This is measuring the length of the forewing (over/under 3/8")
Strong hives, ready to swarm, in California dry heat (it was 108 in the interior of my county this weekend) are aggressive and defensive. Placed in an out-of-the-way yard and left alone, the hive may somewhat recover its composure. But more likely, Blue wild swarms, and naturally requeened hives have gone AHB.
That said, most hives will lose defensiveness if split down to nucs. All the queenless ones can be requeened with known gentle bloodlines.
Thanks JW
I have settled on screening the entrance, sleeving the hive with a bag and putting a block of dry ice at the entrance and allowing the bag/hive to fill with CO2 and leaving it for a day. What I am not sure of at this point is what to do with the dead hive after that. I will have 1 medium and two large hives left after killing this one. I have been keeping my brood nests open with two empty frames inserted into the broodnest every two weeks. This has worked like a charm to keep my bees from swarming, growing the hives large and keeps my hives supplied with fresh frames of comb to replace my harvested frames in my crush and strain operation. I don't know just what to do with all the dead frames of brood after this. Maybe I will insert them into my existing hives to be cleaned up and used.
I have heard that 70% of our feral hives are africanized in our area. I'm 4 miles from the coast, so not interior and not hot weather but I think those africanized bees have caught up with me. I first noticed this behaviour about 4 weeks ago during routine frame insertions. The 3 large colonies I have had really started to bloom in population and were making pretty good use of 4 deeps and then this happened. Well they will all be getting domestically requeened now.
Old Blue
Tired of getting my butt kicked. In.........
Kali-bone-ya
Could the hive be sold to another beekeeper? Or possibly the hive relocated?
goof
Quote from: Old Blue on June 03, 2013, 10:49:01 AM
Many thanks to all for lots of good info. I will suffocate them.
These are unworkable bees. I can not open the hive for any reason. The last time they were opened my host could not go out for two days and if this happens to any neighbors it will be the end of any beekeeping and another chunk of the population will be permanently against bees. I am used to dealing with feral bees and they are uppity - but this hive is on a whole different level and I can not allow this one to survive.
Old Blue
Cant go near it for days after opening....sure sounds AHB to me. Not worth the risk to keep it alive in my book, but I am an old cautious fart.
Quote from: Old Blue on June 04, 2013, 01:50:12 AM
I have settled on screening the entrance, sleeving the hive with a bag and putting a block of dry ice at the entrance and allowing the bag/hive to fill with CO2 and leaving it for a day.
Important I *Don't know* if that will work. The salient fact is CO2 is heavier than atmosphere. It sinks down. If you put it at the bottom, it would only rise by diffusion. You possibly have enough sealing and sublimation to do that. The practice that works is to put it at the top, and let it fill the hive. Any leakage speeds the process when the source is at the top.
I would move them immediately. Then I would requeen them. Then if they are nice enough, I would move them back... I've never killed any bees... but the best way to kill them and leave the honey eatable and not soapy or ruined, is probably by burning sulfur.
http://bushfarms.com/beesrequeeninghot.htm (http://bushfarms.com/beesrequeeninghot.htm)
Quote from: Michael Bush on June 04, 2013, 10:32:02 AM
I would move them immediately. ... I've never killed any bees...
Michael, with all due respect, San Diego, like the whole SouthWest, has Africanized bees.
The Arizona-based cotton/melon/citrus pollination outfits, put 40 foot trailers in the desert, and these fill up quickly with feral swarms of really aggressive parentage. Dropped off in California for Almond or Avocado pollination, there are massive clouds of angry bees at mid-night attacking the forklift operators. Everyone wears full isolation gear. (Source for this description is second hand from my queen breeder. Like me, he has worked bees for decades, and was shocked enough by the situation to tell me about it. A major market for his queens are local SD Avocado pollinators, who requeen yearly to keep the hives workable without a spacesuit. His queens are mostly Russian, so they are not pansies either.)
Blue was catching feral swarms in San Diego-- he has stumbled into a vicious AHB strain, and the hive has built up to full strength (with its accompanying defensiveness). They nearly killed him (he passed out at the drug store looking for Benedryl and was revived by the paramedics). He keeps these bees on suburban gardens. This situation is not appropriate. He might market the hive to a commercial outfit, who might leave the honey supers or woodenware behind for him to harvest and reuse.
>Michael, with all due respect, San Diego, like the whole SouthWest, has Africanized bees.
I assumed that.
> Everyone wears full isolation gear.
I assumed that.
> This situation is not appropriate.
Which is why they should be moved immediately. Anyone, even not in an AHB area, should have a plan for what to do if they become vicious. The most vicious bees I've ever seen were some Buckfasts from Texas that overwintered here in Nebraska. They were the most viscous bees I've seen or can imagine. I requeened them. I was tempted to kill them, but I did not. I've been in hives in the US Virgin Island (all of which are Africanized) and been through hives in Arizona and other AHB areas. They were much nicer than those Buckfasts. I understand viscous. I've seen it. I've dealt with it. It's not just in AHB areas. Every beekeeper should be prepared for this to happen eventually no matter where you are. An exit plan is much easier to execute if you have planned what you will do.
> They nearly killed him
Reminding us all once again to ALWAYS wear protective gear. Things can change quickly.
Sufur smoke will not harm the honey and will not make it inedible to bees you put in the hive later and will kill the bees.
Cant go near it for days after opening....sure sounds AHB to me. Not worth the risk to keep it alive in my book, but I am an old cautious fart.
[/quote]
And I'm an old foolish fart.
But now I'm gonna have to change my ways and start makin cautious like ;)
Old Blue
Preppin up to start makin cautious like. In.........
Kali-bone-ya
Important I *Don't know* if that will work. The salient fact is CO2 is heavier than atmosphere. It sinks down. If you put it at the bottom, it would only rise by diffusion. You possibly have enough sealing and sublimation to do that. The practice that works is to put it at the top, and let it fill the hive. Any leakage speeds the process when the source is at the top.
[/quote]
Thanks again JW I am planning on taping the open end of the bag to the stand to force the heavier than air CO2 to first fill the bag before spilling out the top. I will be putting screen across the entrance and will vent the cover a little less than an 1/8 inch before placing the dry ice in front of the entrance inside the bag.
Old Blue
Quote from: Michael Bush on June 04, 2013, 10:32:02 AM
I would move them immediately. Then I would requeen them. Then if they are nice enough, I would move them back... I've never killed any bees... but the best way to kill them and leave the honey eatable and not soapy or ruined, is probably by burning sulfur.
http://bushfarms.com/beesrequeeninghot.htm (http://bushfarms.com/beesrequeeninghot.htm)
I have no where to move them to and I would not be able to move them without riling them up and that would likely get my host stung up and if neighbors get stung that will be the end of me being able to keep bees. But you are definitely right that it would be best to move them and requeen. I just can not in this situation.
By the way, is that your video of "how to requeen a vicious hive" that shows the application of the hive tool test? If it is, thank you very much for making and sharing it. It looks like a great way to handle the situation and if I could that would be my preferred course of action.
And while I got your ear, thanks for teaching me a lot about beekeeping!
Old Blue
Quote from: Michael Bush on June 04, 2013, 02:15:56 PM
>Michael, with all due respect, San Diego, like the whole SouthWest, has Africanized bees.
I assumed that.
> Everyone wears full isolation gear.
I assumed that.
> This situation is not appropriate.
Which is why they should be moved immediately. Anyone, even not in an AHB area, should have a plan for what to do if they become vicious. The most vicious bees I've ever seen were some Buckfasts from Texas that overwintered here in Nebraska. They were the most viscous bees I've seen or can imagine. I requeened them. I was tempted to kill them, but I did not. I've been in hives in the US Virgin Island (all of which are Africanized) and been through hives in Arizona and other AHB areas. They were much nicer than those Buckfasts. I understand viscous. I've seen it. I've dealt with it. It's not just in AHB areas. Every beekeeper should be prepared for this to happen eventually no matter where you are. An exit plan is much easier to execute if you have planned what you will do.
> They nearly killed him
Reminding us all once again to ALWAYS wear protective gear. Things can change quickly.
Sufur smoke will not harm the honey and will not make it inedible to bees you put in the hive later and will kill the bees.
Yup I'm all in agreement.
Plan A is to requeen. (I just cant in this situation)
Plan B is to eliminat them.
I quit wrapping my ankles up a long time ago becuase I never needed to. With my slightly long beesuit and my hives on ~18 inch high stands it was never and issue. BUT WHEN I MOVED THIS HIVE box by box I got mobbed, including at my ankles which is where they got me.
That was the epsode when I became sensitized to being stung and there is no going back. From now on I have to carry the darn EPI pens.I am still kicking myself because I did not wrap my ankles to move this hive. And now I will pay for it for the rest of my life. I have already had to drive home once because I forgot the darn things. My sensitization was completely preventable, but I blew it and I knew better.
I have since purchased a pair of gaiters that are par excellance at protecting my ankles and I can not say enough good things about them. (no I'm not affiliated yada yada yada) Theses things are made to keep chiggers and ticks out of hikers boots and are treated with a bug repellent. They are quite slick and I couldn't be happier with them.
If you have any history of becoming sensitized to anything I can not strongly enough recommend that you get bee tight and stay bee tight when working your bees. You just don't know if you will sensitize to bee stings, but if you do your life will be changed forever. Plus it's just embarrassing as all hell :oops:.
Old Blue
I didn't read M Bush's "finding the queen" story till just now. I have enough tops and bottoms to do exactly what he is talking about. I can walk by my hive with out any problem. even work around close to it as long as I am not working on it. The last time I was in it when I closed it up 3 or 4 followed me for about 100 ft out of sight of the hive. My wife is highly allergic to any kind of bee/wasp sting. If she gets stung it is E.R. no doubt. My hot hive is hot only when I go into it, but that is enough for me to want to do something with them. I have been opening up my new hive with out any thing other than a little smoke. Those Carnelian's really like staying on the frames. The day will come. ;) :) d2
I did do it this once. Put an empty box with frames on a bottom board. add an excluder, then an empty box with nothing in it. Add a box of bees on next. Squirt the fume board with Bee-Go, wait about ten or fifteen minutes. check the empty box and repeat as often as needed.
I found the queen about half way through. :)d2
if they are healthy, ya reuse em. although I'm sort of squeamish about re-using comb from other hives personally...sometimes I think it just creates and shares problems, and not like bees do not know how to make comb as has been said many times over on the forum here. you can just cut it out, sanitize the frames and burn the comb too, I'd say give it to someone else if you didn't want to use it, but once again doing that would mean you wouldn't think it would cause them any problems surely, and if you thought that, you might as well use it yourself, if you can.