Had a long talk with the state bee inspector for central New Hampshire yesterday. He said that top bar frames, eight-frame hives, and medium frames simply don't overwinter well this far north. He personally uses nothing but ten-frame deeps for everything.
That was very disheartening for me to hear because I've converted almost entirely to eight-frame medium hives with one token top bar frame. But I have to admit that my success overwintering has not been good.
Any thoughts?
My experience is different than his. I have several top bar hives and they overwinter just as well as my Langstroths. I have all eight frame mediums now and I think they winter slightly better than the ten frame deeps I used to run. Everyone has their opinion and often it is based on one bad experience and not on a broad experience over a long period of time. Once you have an opinion then everything that supports it is "proof" and everything that contradicts it is "an exception". It's just human nature...
I was hoping you'd weigh in on this, I follow your writings avidly. You're at about 41 North, and I'm at about 43.6 North. I think we're both in USDA plant hardiness zone 4. We have a southern exposure on a very large lake, so it's a mild enough micro-climate here for persimmons and pawpaws to thrive. I've been having a terrible time getting hives through the winter, not to mention bears, mice, yellow jackets and pesticides.
Being from down south, I don't have the trouble that you do with winter. In the local club I am in, when I joined I would say that 95% only used 10 frame deeps for every thing. A few may have a couple of 10 frame medium supers. There was a lady that started a couple of months after I did,going there. She was in her sixties and some back trouble, they started her off with 10 frame deeps brood and supers. Some just don't try new things that may or may not work better for them. Good luck to you and your bees.
Joe
i'd agree with michael bush. once we set our minds on something we tend to want see and hear what we want to from that point on. i use ten frame deeps for brood and mediums for honey because that's what we did 30 years ago but i kind of have to think that bees would do better in 8 frame equipment anywhere. i can only think of a few feral hives i've seen that were more than 5 or 6 combs wide. i've seen plenty that were tall and or long, though. i want to increase next year and i've got to decide if i want to change to 8 frame equipment going forward or stick with 10 frame. there was 6 frame equipment on the market back in the 70's which is probably what i would think is more ideal but 5 frame seems to be the standard below 8 frames these days. 5 frame hives just get too tall to manage down here in dixie.
Hello 0-13
I think our climates are very similar - I kept bees for 2 long winters before I had the first hive winter-over successfully - the third winter. The was really only 2 differences in what I did when they made it through the winter. First, I had never even acknowledged the existence of mites and ignored treatment thereof. Secondly, upon closing the hives up in the late fall, I simply left the beehives alone until the weather got to be 50 degrees in the spring. Conversely, the first winter that my hives made it - I treated them in the fall with api-guard (thymol) and secondly, I constantly (every 2 weeks or so) checked on the bees - to make sure the bees had food right on top of the cluster. I did this all winter long until the flow was on in the spring.
I don't know if the feed was a deal breaker or not since all 4 came through the winter loaded with left over honey. But I am confident that treating for mites absolutely helped.
Just thought I'd pass this along since my frustration after 2 winters of complete 3-hive dead-outs almost had me in early retirement from raising bees. I wish you luck!
David
Quote from: Michael Bush on June 10, 2013, 04:03:36 PM
My experience is different than his. I have several top bar hives and they overwinter just as well as my Langstroths.
Do you live in North?
The length of winter is much more dangerous to bees than severe cold.
This winter it took 5 months that hives made a cleansing flight. Then after that it took 3 months that new bees started to emerge. Some hives stood very well that long time but many of hives dwindled away before they got new bees.
Those neighbours, who wintered with mere sugar, they had no problems in hives.
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> You're at about 41 North, and I'm at about 43.6 North. I think we're both in USDA plant hardiness zone 4.
We typically get about two weeks of -10 F (-23 C) or so weather. Occasionally we get -27 F (-33 C) for a couple of weeks. It's a rare winter it isn't subzero for at least two weeks. But it's the 60 mph winds when it's -27 F that are really hard...
>Do you live in North?
I live right in the middle of the US. But the cold from the arctic blows down here often enough that it is as cold here as it is in Vermont.
I think the inspector likely made a valid observation. However, he confused correlation with causation. Top-Bars and Eight Frame hives are selected by novice bee-keepers. Top Bars are downright "trendy" where I live, with irrational expectations from painfully naive accolytes.
The inspector has observed that *novice keepers lose hives*. I can corroborate that. I don't think the frame count or the size of the box is a huge factor. Cannot speak to survival in Top Bars away from the "Snows of Kilamanjaro", but after getting my ear bent by an earnest, but entirely unschooled Top-Barista, I went away wishing the keeper would be the one who didn't survive the winter.
In my location, winter survival is an issue of trying to condition a brood break, when the flowers begin in earnest in Advent. However, despite the mild climate, TB hives and 8-frame Garden Ornaments die-off. It's not the weather. The keepers tell me, "I had CCD" (despite any evidence whatsoever) as if that is badge of accomplishment.
>"I had CCD"
I seem to hear that a lot. As if that explains anything...