Ok. I know it's still June, but I need to start gathering supplies for wintering the hive. Being in northern Wisconsin, we only get about 16 weeks of summer. I know what the books say, but what do others in the far north do for wintering? Books aren't specific to this area.
My plan is simply to save at least 10 frames of honey to feed back if their stores get low in the winter. My hives are painted dark enough that they should pick up solar heat during cold days. If I can't get them moved to the spot I want them in, I'll be building some sort of wind shield, more than likely a temporary fence. I'll also be putting an upper entrance because of the amount of snow we can get hit with.
I have my hive painted hunter green, blends in with the 12' tall lilac and the grass.
Now don't get us arguing with Finski about wintering when it's only June :-D
You probably need to ponder rather or not you're going to insulate your hive(s) and top vs bottom vents/entrances. Some people will winter their bees inside. Some people even add some electric heat at times. A good colony of bees can definitely survive the cold, even in a wood box, but I like to think giving them a little thermal help is a good thing. Everybody has a different opinion about how to best winter a hive and conserve the bee's heat. Wintering indoors was the way to do it north of Columbus in CC Millers time. Since then, most everybody winters outdoors. I'm sure Finski will have some opinions. :)
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* The most important thing is to have a bee stock which react properly to local course and summer.
It stops brood rearing at right time and then you have date limit, when at least, your must feed the wintering hive full.
* Reduce the colony to so small room as it stays inside. Then feed. For exaple, if I have 6 boxes in summer, ther hive will have one or two for winter. Depends on amount of brood before stopping.
* Insulation saves energy.
* let the hive be in peace during winter. No national festifal meals or paper+sugar operations. Bees in nature do not get those gifts either. No honey balls or open feeding in warm spells.
.* No knockings during winter: are you alive-- surrrrr. It is is dead, it is dead. Knocking will not awke it up
I think we're at about the same latitude. My winter problems have been bears, starvation and mice, in that order.
I have mostly 8-frame medium hives, one 10-frame deep, a few Warre's, and one top bar. The top bar has never made it through a winter.
My goal with the 8-frames and Warres is to leave one full box of honey above the box containing the brood nest.
Starting in August, when there's not much nectar available here, I take most of the honey supers off and feed, to encourage the bees to pack honey around the brood nest and so that there's no empty space above the brood nest. I add a super under the brood nest to keep it away from the drafty entrance and the wet base, and so that it will already be in place for spring.
Winter preparations: Windbreaks, food, ventilation. Make sure there's some kind of top entrance, at least a 1/2" hole, so condensation can escape. Block the mice. In winter, "the top is the bottom" - when the cluster is at the top of the hive, they're at the bottom of their supplies. Make sure there's always food directly above the cluster.
Quote from: Oblio13 on June 27, 2013, 08:17:29 AM
Make sure there's always food directly above the cluster.
If the wintering room is 2 boxes, it is important to move brood frames to lower box. Bees start wintering where they had last brood.
Important is to kill mites during winter feeding with thymol pads.
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Tagged.
Great thread. Concerned about my first winter also, and I think it's a good thing to start thinking about it early. A local guy who's been doing this for 15 years says he needs 70 - 90 pounds of honey per hive to make it through the winter. I don't know how many frames that equates to, but it seems like a lot.
My bee are bit more south (southern wyoming) but at 7000 ft. Last year I had a KTBH, I built a Warre type quilt and cover, plus insulated sides and bottom. I also cleared out all comb not full of honey to make space as small as possible. Hive is placed on southeast side of thick willow stand which provides needed wind break.
We had two seporate weeks with lows -25 or less each night and never broke 10 for high 7 days in a row.
I never opened the hive November to march. I did feed in march. I thought the hive died in march, but was pleasantly surprised when I started to clean my "dead" hive out. They are doing great now.
How much food? A good question and as with all things bees, "it depends".
Last winter I babied along 4 mating nucs with less than 800 bees in each hive. The hives had just 4 half medium frames, so they really didn't have much food at all; 4 lbs max (1.8kg). I did try to help them out by giving them a little holiday candy on occasion. :)
In the end, it wasn't the lack of food that did them it, it was the cold. :(
In Michigan we tend to have much fewer bee loses during mild winters than our formally really cold winters. I'm of the opinion that cold is more deadly than a lack a food, but having the food over their heads is a definite necessity.
naw, bees can survive our cold in Michigan. They survive winters in alaska, they can survive here, and the same applies to bumble bees and all our older feral bees. it is something else killing them off, not the cold imo.
that being said a 3/4" thick solid piece of pine isn't a tree trunk or even a roof vent. They need a large micro climate they can move in, and adjust as their heat situations change, and food to survive. a 1 ft box or two sitting 4" off the ground like many hives on 4 x 4's just isn't adequate unless they really get adjusted. I agree with finsk. what is more important is for the breed to be survivors from the area with the ingrained habits and cycles involved. These people bringing nucs up from the south, just don;t have the genetic instruction set that is ideal. it adjusts, surely, but don't think it is ideal. I'd like to find out exactly who got their packages from down south suppliers in michigan and how many actually survive. I know someone will pipe in and say "I've always got my packages from down south and they over winter just fine!" and some of them will be package suppliers...from down south...but I'd be curious to know for sure.
some various responces from the past I have found on the subject:
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... sunbelt queens are having genetic issues and just are no longer a bee that is designed to overwinter in tough climates such as michigan, nor survive without using medications. ...unfit southern bees + poor fall forage + long winter = starvation. He basically said to stop buying packages and just get nucs -...this has seriously set him back.
Dann Purvis on Southern bee producers, queens and their genetics: "They are dead men walking."
Mike Palmer (paraphrased): "Packaged bees from the south are clearly failing, and the solution is to make your apiary sustainable through overwintered nucs."
Erin Forbes (paraphrased): "One of the reasons package bees do not do well is they are STRESSED...they are likely coming from migratory colonies which only 2 months ago were sitting among almond groves in California, soak up the cocktail of pathogens, insecticides, herbicides and other chemicals."
Dr. Debbie Delaney (paraphrased), UD: "Italian genetics [from Southern producers] are not showing signs of diversification, which are contributing to the high rate of failures."
Alabama Beekeepers Association motto: "Packaged bees, Queens, Honey" My response: Tsk, tsk. Those to fail to learn from the lessons of the past (and present) are condemned to repeat it. Definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over and over (buying packages), ...and expecting different results (that the packages SUCCEED!) We need to stop living in the packaged bee past and embrace a new revolution in beekeeping...Overwinter nucs, to sustain your apiary, and any extras, sell 'em to sustain your pocketbook. Drop packages like a hot potato, I say. The trend is EXTREMELY evident."
"Dr. Connor. He talked about how he lost every single package colony that he started this year despite having sufficient (he had 15 packages ). He had problems with queen supercedure during the summer. Then in the late season there was not much pollen from goldenrod and his southern queens were not laying well. Overall he attributed the losses to starvation. Colonies were broodless and clusters died very near honey. Often with brown bee poo all over the inside. He had medicated with fuagellin. While these queens may be sufficient for big commercial beekeepers, they no longer work for those who want to overwinter here and not medicate. He attributed these losses to the fact that these sunbelt queens are having genetic issues and just are no longer a bee that is designed to overwinter in tough climates such as michigan, nor survive without using medications.
There were other factors summed up like this. He basically said: unfit southern bees + poor fall forage + long winter = starvation
He basically said to stop buying packages and just get nucs - mentioned data from the USDA in the 1930s had 30% supercedure rates. If you do get packages then He is a big proponent of requeening all your packages with queens from proven survivor/resistant stocks. He mentioned russians in particular. He is working on a program to get survivor queens in michigan, but this has seriously set him back.
I was curious about any other northern beekeepers who started southern/sunbelt packages/queens and how they did over this winter.
I myself started with two italian queened packages, split two nucs off these and lost all four of these hives. They were all less than an inch from honey. "
Quote from: Better.to.Bee.than.not on June 29, 2013, 05:02:05 AM
some various responces from the past I have found on the subject:
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There are better wisdom than that.
I have kept here bees 50 years in Alaska altitude.
in USA guys use same methods and bee strains in south and north. It will never succeed.
Alaska Fairbanks University reports that killing colonies in autumn is the most ecpnomical way to keep bees in Alaska. This tells that your systems there does not work.
Very funny. To get douple brood colony over winter needs only 20 kg sugar.
No package bees can achieve same production than wintered big colony.
I have my hive set on a platform of concrete blocks 2-high. Entrance faces south, about 6 feet from a giant lilac. Behind the hive is a pine tree. If we have snow this year like we did last year, I should be able to build them an 8 foot high windbreak. I planned on leaving them the 2 deeps, a super if they have gotten to it before winter, and putting a feeder on top.
As far as wrapping, should I use rigid foam insulation outside the hive before wrapping, or should they be fine with just roofing paper?
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If you can get there polystyrene hives, bye those and try how they work to you.
They need not wrapping, but they need wind shelter coat (geotextile).
You need only brood boxes as styrene, but medium size is handy too in wintering.
I live at the level of Anchorage. Hives consume on average 20 kg sugar during winter. I take allmost all hioney off in autumn. I try to winter them in douple lanstroths.
Finski has mentioned this person keeping bees in Alaska: alaskahoneybee....com. Keith is very knowledgeable in wintering bees in Alaska. I use similar methods, and my brood boxes are 12 inches deep not 9.65" as a standard Langstroth.
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We use in Finland normal American standards Langstroths.
Some use merely American medium frames in hives and in wintering too.
.Our all beekeepers are succesfull winterer. Others cannot exist. Too expencive to be "unsuccesfull".
We do not have here package bees. The price of new colony is in sprin 300 euros =400 US $
Biggest farmer has 3000 hives. He manufactures polyhives. (Honey Paradise)
Another guy has 1000 hives and he makes polyhives too (Honeypaw)
http://www.paradisehoney.fi/ (http://www.paradisehoney.fi/)
http://beekeeping.honeypaw.fi/ (http://beekeeping.honeypaw.fi/)
(http://hikianhunaja.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/img_6171.jpg?w=472&h=314)
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Honey producers in Finland (volunteer map)
http://www.hunajantuottajat.fi/ (http://www.hunajantuottajat.fi/)
Hey, I know Debbie Delaney. She and my wife were friends when she was here in Pullman working on her PhD. She and her husband are good people.
Finski, I think the language barrier interfered a bit. those comments were not mine, they were things others said and they pretty much agree with you. They are talking about package bees from down south being brought up and not being able to over winter. It is or should be obvious bees 'can' overwinter here fine, they've done it for a long time. people need to have genetics from over wintered hives and good procedures. I'm not arguing about them being able to be over wintered in a 3/4" walled langstroth....of course they can be. I am merely saying it isn't ideal.
Polyhives do sorta make sense for ultra cold areas though, maybe even here. I've thought about using them also actually.
Quote from: Palouse on June 28, 2013, 08:59:22 PM
Great thread. Concerned about my first winter also, and I think it's a good thing to start thinking about it early. A local guy who's been doing this for 15 years says he needs 70 - 90 pounds of honey per hive to make it through the winter. I don't know how many frames that equates to, but it seems like a lot.
It is still June.
If you collect the whole year honey to the hive, propably the hive is full of honey soon. They swarm. They have no space to rear winter bees and you hive will be lost before you even understand what happened.
70-90 lbs honey for winter is absolutely too much. The bee race is not suitable to area or hive has no insulating properties.
I harvest annually 60 kg honey /hive, and then I feed on average 20 kg sugar to hives. With that amount bees manage from September to May and I need not even feed them during that 9 months period.
I know bee strains which does not stop brood rearing in time and they will be dead before Christmas.
There are too strains which just burn awfully much fuel during winter and die even In polystyrene hives.
Sugar is as good winter food as honey. No doubt about it.
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Quote from: Better.to.Bee.than.not on June 29, 2013, 04:54:04 AM
naw, bees can survive our cold in Michigan.
I'd like to find out exactly who got their packages from down south suppliers in michigan and how many actually survive.
Sounds like an incongruency here ;)
If you're buying packages every year, you're doing something wrong. Not all packages into Michigan come from the south either. A big supplier around me brings in bees by the Semi load from California.
Quote from: Better.to.Bee.than.not on June 29, 2013, 05:02:05 AM
If you do get packages then He is a big proponent of requeening all your packages with queens from proven survivor/resistant stocks. He mentioned russians in particular. He is working on a program to get survivor queens in michigan, but this has seriously set him back.
I have never tried Russians, but why would I want to? My Carniolan and Italian stock do great. The MORE bees in a northern hive over winter, the better IMO. More bees = More heat = less freezing.
How well do thr poly hives interface with wooden supers I have? Can I mix or must I keep a 100% poly hive and 100 % wood?
Quote from: robk23678 on June 29, 2013, 12:43:56 PM
As far as wrapping, should I use rigid foam insulation outside the hive before wrapping, or should they be fine with just roofing paper?
Bees can survive in plain old wood boxes without doing anything, but that doesn't mean there aren't ways to increase their odds of survival. Roofing paper or polystyrene? You're looking for a simple answer to a complex thermodynamics question. :-D
On the one hand, the black tar paper will gain many watts of heat energy on a sunny winter day which will help unfreeze the bees from the night before whereas polystyrene will not let the warmth of the sun into the bees. However the polystyrene will hold what heat IS inside a hive much better at night than a hive with just tar paper. What would you be more comfortable in if YOU lived outside in Wisconsin day and night? A thin black wind breaker, or a goose down parka?
Nearly all my hives are polystrene boxes. This has worked well for me, but there is also the freezer effect which can cause problems.
Quote from: Sunnyboy2 on June 30, 2013, 03:28:13 AM
How well do thr poly hives interface with wooden supers I have? Can I mix or must I keep a 100% poly hive and 100 % wood?
I made 45 years ago wooden uninsulated hives for 25 colonies.
I use them still.
25 years ago I started buy polyhives. They were very expencive on those days, but spring build up was so fast that I got price back in same year.
Now I use polys as brood boxes and old pine boxes are as supers.
3 cm thick wooden box consumes food in winter 50% more than polyhive. So food lasts 3 month longer for bees than in cold hive. One of the most important think is that poly box weight is only 2 lbs.
Hives must be feeded allways full of syrup. Otherwise bees do not cap the food. It takes moisture from air and start to swell out from cells. Even biggest colonies may die in those hives.
I use to have 2-3 polyboxes and 4-6 wooden supers.
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Survival over winter is not a goal. It is schildden play to do that when you learn it and listen a good teacher.
I have 20% spare hives for winter. I have not starve out cases. Losses of colonies becomes from nosema and spoiled queens. There are drone layers and some of queen have lost its power to lay. Perhaps they got nosema.
Varroa deminish cluster size and it means more time to build up in Spring. Delayed yield is a big loss.
The most imoportant is to get the colony full size that it can harvest to me honey. 2-box colonies can harvest dandelion honey and raspberry honey, but not one box winterer.
When I have a colony and I want yield from raspberry, the box must be full of brood at the first half May, that bees have enough foragers on the late half of June. It takes 7 weeks that hive has 5 boxes bees and is able to get raspberry hioney.
5-6 box hive can get 5-10 kg raspberry in one day, it hive is good. If it has only one box, i can do nothing. Nectar fills brood box and build up goes slowly.
here we have Finnish Balance Hive net. You may see huge day yields in South East country.
I have Kouvola spot.
Figures are not all one day yields.
http://koti.tnnet.fi/web144/vaakapesa/selaa.php (http://koti.tnnet.fi/web144/vaakapesa/selaa.php)
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Early yield with big clusters.
You should have a strategy on your area, what you should to do to get good honey yield. If you do not mind about honey, it is same what you do. It needs no skills. Just keep a hive on your home yard and wait for a escaped swarm. Varroa killed that kind of nursing style here 25 years ago.
Our summer is short and I need every week to be able to harvest.
Today biggest hives have brough 50 kg honey in June. Mainly it is from raspberry.
Small colonies are still on their way to build up, and they are short of foragers. Perhaps the hive is 4 box big, but foragers are too few. Larvae eat all what forages carry home.
During a week I must join small hives to big ones that they are usefull in this summers harvest.
Our summer is very early now 2-3 weeks earlier than normal. Bee flowers may stop blooming 15.7.
Normally main flow stops 28.7. Normally raspberry is at its best now, but it has been over one week.
Spring canola has started to bloom here.
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Quote from: BlueBee on June 30, 2013, 03:04:52 AM
Quote from: Better.to.Bee.than.not on June 29, 2013, 04:54:04 AM
naw, bees can survive our cold in Michigan.
I'd like to find out exactly who got their packages from down south suppliers in michigan and how many actually survive.
Sounds like an incongruency here ;)
If you're buying packages every year, you're doing something wrong. Not all packages into Michigan come from the south either. A big supplier around me brings in bees by the Semi load from California.
huh? what in any of that says anything about buying packages every year? none thats what.... what it says is me saying "bees can survive in winter here" thats a obvious since they've done it for many many decades. and then something completely different that says I would like to find out exactly who got packages/etc from down south....and how many actually survived.... That is called curiosity and research.... seriously if you have absolutely nothing to 'add' to the conversation, except your poorly understood silliness, then don't say anything, right? is the topic what I say? no... so..... no one doubts there are packages that come from other places besides the south... who doesn't know that?
The thing is a lot of bees DO die off in michigan, it would be good to know the correlation of those that for instance do not stop laying drone in the winter at the right time, because they have genetic training that isn't correct for the area's weather. down south, californian or other. this still does not mean they cannot over winter of course, no one said anything of the sort. its just a factor, large or small whatever, but nothing is absolute in nature.
I said "If you do get packages then He is a big proponent of requeening all your packages with queens from proven survivor/resistant stocks. He mentioned russians in particular. He is working on a program to get survivor queens in michigan, but this has seriously set him back."
I didn't say YOU should get russians. I said what was suggested. first of all re-queening breaks the mite cycle but the point is "proven survivor/resistant stocks" a lot of people like russians because of their grooming habits. and all of us in michigan should be working towards getting survivor queens in michigan imo.
Re-queening does not break the mite cycle long enough to rid a hive or varroa or even have much impact. Our winters are MUCH longer than a re-queening break and the varroa still survive even the winter break.
I really don't think there is much of a mystery in making "survivor" queens in Michigan. My hives are making new survivors all the time. I haven't bought any queens in years and my hives are exploding with bees; sans those little 800 bee colonies I experimented overwintering.
I really think if Michigan beeks would pay more attention to the thermodynamics of a hive, we would have a lot more "survival" bees here. That was the general point of this thread if I recall; what should the new guy do to get his bees prepared for winter.
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We do not need thermodynamic calculations because our polyhives, and self made insulated hives works fine in our long winter. They save food and bees do not starve out.
Then some propel head from Enland comes to explain plaa plaa plaa, and hardly have seen ice cover on lake. And all those "ventilated inner covers", - nonsense.
Our polyhive manufacturers have over 1000 own hives, and they know what they do.
I just bought medium boxes. Price was 10 euros a box.
Frames were 40 cents per piece.
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Quote from: BlueBee on July 01, 2013, 04:38:02 AM
Re-queening does not break the mite cycle long enough to rid a hive or varroa or even have much impact. Our winters are MUCH longer than a re-queening break and the varroa still survive even the winter break...
Broodless periods, including winter, dramatically reduce the mite population. Mites can survive on adult bees, but they only reproduce on brood. Unmolested Varroa will reach a peak population in the fall, when it's critical for bees to be healthy. A late-summer interruption in the mite's life cycle allows the bees to go into winter with a lower parasite load.
>Dr. Connor. He talked about how he lost every single package colony that he started this year
That was my experience last year. I was trying to get my numbers back up after being out of the country three years. It was a waste of my money and effort. I don't think any of those package bees survived the winter, although they went into winter with a lot of stores.
Quote from: BlueBee on July 01, 2013, 04:38:02 AM
Re-queening does not break the mite cycle long enough to rid a hive or varroa or even have much impact. Our winters are MUCH longer than a re-queening break and the varroa still survive even the winter break.
Well, you are just simply wrong. it isn't even as if it isn't or hasn't been documented. It has plenty. Does it solve the problem? no. does it remove all the varroa in the whole state if someone breaks the cycle with one re-queening... no, so when they go out and forage they do obviously pick up more, if there are other hives near it, they obviously pick up more. but it does without a doubt, not even questionable, disrupt the cycle within that hive.
Quote from: BlueBee on July 01, 2013, 04:38:02 AM
I really don't think there is much of a mystery in making "survivor" queens in Michigan. My hives are making new survivors all the time. I haven't bought any queens in years and my hives are exploding with bees; sans those little 800 bee colonies I experimented overwintering.
let's see "I haven't bought any queens in years and my hives are exploding with bees" ~ "I really don't think there is much of a mystery in making "survivor" queens in Michigan." ....no you are right there isn't, you just mentioned why. using survivor stock/genetics and doing things like using other hives to supplement population, will do it rather easily. As you stated larger populated hives are obviously 'more likely' to overwinter. more bees equal more heat , and just plain more chance of enough surviving. Though they also consume more resources.
Quote from: BlueBee on July 01, 2013, 04:38:02 AM
I really think if Michigan beeks would pay more attention to the thermodynamics of a hive, we would have a lot more "survival" bees here. That was the general point of this thread if I recall; what should the new guy do to get his bees prepared for winter.
We agree attention needs to be paid to thermodynamics of the hive, that does not mean other things are not a factor, and should not be paid attention to or considered.
Quote from: Oblio13 on July 01, 2013, 07:40:53 AM
Quote from: BlueBee on July 01, 2013, 04:38:02 AM
Re-queening does not break the mite cycle long enough to rid a hive or varroa or even have much impact. Our winters are MUCH longer than a re-queening break and the varroa still survive even the winter break...
Broodless periods, including winter, dramatically reduce the mite population. Mites can survive on adult bees, but they only reproduce on brood. Unmolested Varroa will reach a peak population in the fall, when it's critical for bees to be healthy. A late-summer interruption in the mite's life cycle allows the bees to go into winter with a lower parasite load.
I wonder what you mean.
mite douples its amount every month. Brood amount start to go down in late summer but more mites suck less brood. Finally there are like porriage on the floor when bees have drawn violated brood from cells.
When summer bees die, there remain healthy wintering bees. They may be reduced 20%, 50% or almost all.
A big hive ,may be totally empty in autumn when varroa kills the winter bee brood . Yes, I have has such hive.
During winter mites die in same relation as bees.
10 mites in February will produce 1000 mites in September. And that is a treshold of colony violation.
.These things are very well known.
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Quote from: Better.to.Bee.than.not on July 01, 2013, 02:48:12 PM
Well, you are just simply wrong.
Afraid not. :( As Finski says, these things are very well known.
I will agree with you that varroa is a significant factor in winter dead outs and it may not hurt to re-queen mid summer IF you really know what you're doing and what the bees are doing. Not something I would advise for a guy just starting out with bees (original post). There is certainly risk in re-queening and you could end up with no winter bees at all if your timing is off, the queen gets eaten by the bird, or as Finski says, the varroa STILL kill too many winter brood. I would deal with varroa like Finski does if you want to reduce their devastation in the winter.
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I have now played with oxalic acid trickling 10 years. It means that I killed mites before winter when hives were broodless.
Now I see that mites harvest half of my bees in autumn, and my clusters have never bees so small as they are now.
My 2 neighbours use thymol pads during feeding. Their colonies are in good condition in spring and their early honey yield is good.
During last years In Finland experienced beekeepers have lost all their hives when they have not been carefull enough and they have trusted that "I know how to do this". Varroa hits at once back.
One reason is that treatment does not affect allways like in theory. 96% should die but it was actually 70%.
30% alive means that mites are back after 2 brood cycle.
Mite things are very well known but beekeepers do not believe and they are not carefull enough
Forums are sometimes more dangerous to beginners than mites.
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