We had a new neighbor move in next door late last summer and he had a hive with him. He's kept to himself except for the other day. Being winter time my swarm traps that I leave in the trees on my property are seen by anyone looking up. He came over asking me to take them down. That I'd be stealing his bees if they swarm! I told him I have had them up since before he moved in. They have been up for 3 yrs. He was still insistent that they come down. My question is what would you do if similar happened to you? And is there a minimum distance to keep swarm traps away from other beekeepers' hives? Trying to be a good neighbor. Thanks for your input, Chris
do you have bees at this location? you are certainly entitled to capture your own swarms. advise him to hang some traps of his own & to locate his hives as far from your property as possible since HE is so concerned. as often as not swarms settle within 100' of the hive that they left.
He doesn't sound like a good neighbor, so I would tell him, if you let your bees swarm and they come on to my property they are fair game. Unless he is trying to catch them. Last year I had a swarm take off, I followed them for a couple hundred yards. they were over the tree tops and headed for the swamp, just figured they were gone. I can't see where he gets off, he could have been a lots nicer if wanting any kind of concessions from you. Good luck to you and your bees and that neighbor.
Joe
Here in Montana where we have a rope, a gun and a fill in the blank constitution, just stand your ground. You have the right to enjoy your trees and your property and tell him as much. As the former responder suggested, tell him he should work on swarm control. Then walk away and never discuss it again. If he starts just walk away.
Durn...If the traps are on your land, I think that's your business. If you have had them there before he came along and he says that...I think he is wayyy out there.
I see this just like deer hunting and having a deer stand on your property. The neighbor hunts, too. Deer do not belong to anybody, they are a free roaming wild animal. But the neighbor wants you to remove your stand since it affects the deer coming to his property.
And, if you have bees at your place...you can throw it back in his face and tell him to remove his bees since they are competing with the same food sources your bees need, just to see how he reacts to that angle. People like that ain't no friends of mine. I just can't believe the gall of some people...
I had an old parts car with weeds growing all around it. A guy bought down the street and built a new house. He then went to the city and the police asked me to get rid of it because the neighbor thought it made the neighborhood look bad. I told the chief it was there when the guy bought the land.If he didn't like the neighborhood, he should have bought elsewhere. My car was there first. My car stayed.
Tell the guy if he didn't like what was there, he shouldn't have moved there. He don't come in and try to change the neighborhood. If you don't, he will be finding other things for you to change.
Tell him, "Yeah I'll move it, but next year I'm planting cotton and am gonna spray the H*&# out of it and he better not say anything."
Naw, not really. Be nice. Just tell him to kiss your gas hole.
or tell him ever since your bees died of American Foul Brood you've been trying to raise more but they all keep dying for some reason.
Here in Arkansas it can be a little different.
Here you are by state law to register your hives with the Arkansas Apiary Board.
Failure to do so is a misdemeanor offense.
But of course they don't push the law but it's there.
I'd just tell him to worry about what he has on his land and don't worry about what I do on mine.
Bees will cover on an average of around 8,000 acres so is he going to tell everybody in that area what to do?
Like I told a preacher feller one time, You're fixin' to wake up something you don't even want to see, so I'd advise you to get you bible tot'n uh behind on down the road.
the sense of entitlement that a lot of people have amazes me. sorry to hear about your new neighbor.
Quote from: Edgy on February 16, 2014, 08:53:31 PMBeing winter time my swarm traps that I leave in the trees on my property are seen by anyone looking up. He came over asking me to take them down. That I'd be stealing his bees if they swarm!
If those traps were not in the vicinity of your own hives, then I would have said that he's got a point. Putting up traps close to another beekeeper's hives means stealing his swarms. But at the same time you have to be a prudent beekeeper yourself and try to catch the swarms that issue from your own hives. For that reason I think it should be okay for you to have traps near his hives if you have the traps nearer to your own hives.
Say, are your traps baited with pheromones?
I think it is a beekeeper's responsibility to ensure that his hives don't swarm (if he doesn't want them to swarm), or to be present at the hives when they swarm (if he wants them to swarm).
The murkier question is what happens when one of his hives swarm and you catch the swarm. It depends on local law, but hereabouts the rule is that the swarm belongs to the beekeeper whose hive the swarm had obviously issued from, if that information is reasonably known.
Where I live, this means that when you're called out to a swarm that was reported by the public, you have to try and figure out (by e.g. asking the neighbours) if anyone in the vicinity keeps bees, and if so, then the question is whether the swarm is theirs (and if so, then they have to catch the swarm, and if they don't want to, it means that they abandon their claim to the swarm). The swarming rules in our region are not applied as strictly as they were in the past, because at the time when the rules were written, swarming was a normal part of beekeeping, but these days most local beekeepers try to avoid swarming by making artificial swarms.
QuoteTrying to be a good neighbor.
Well, if you are in a compromising mood, try to find out how his queen is marked, see if you can (re-)mark your queens differently, and tell him that if there is a swarm, he can have it if the queen is unmarked or if it turns out to be his queen. It would also be a good idea to make sure he keeps a close watch on his hive so that you know that he will know for certain whether his hive had actually swarmed.
If this guy was someone I knew, and a decent person, I'd gladly give him his swarm back. I would feel good helping a friend out. However this is different. My time is worth something and my traps cost something to construct. He would have to prove they were his bee's and pay me for my time and effort since he's a snot. Aren't feral swarms attracted to bee yards?
I'd hang a no trespassing sign on the property line. I would tell him it applies to him as well as his bees.Then, if his bees cross the property line, you're just apprehending lawbreakers.
Seriously, if the traps are on your property, he has no business telling you to take them down. If he has swarm traps, he is as likely to catch your swarms, as you are his.
Don't let him start intimidating you now, or he'll never stop.
I think he is under the misunderstanding that the traps will cause the bees to swarm. They won't. Or that they will keep him from catching his swarms. He can still catch them and put them in his hives, but if he doesn't why should he care if they end up in your hive instead of the trees? I think he just doesn't understand how this affects his bees, which is not at all.
I don't know what your State law and local ordinances say. My understanding of English Common Law as brought forth in North Carolina is that if honey bees swarm and remain in sight of the "owning" beekeeper as he or she seeks to recover them they remain his or her property. They may have problems with trespass if they go on the land of another without permission to retrieve the swarm. If the swarm leaves the "owners" property without the "owner" keeping in contact with the swarm, they become the property of the person who retrieves them.
I have bees in the city and my next door neighbor is a friend and fellow beekeeper. He retrieved a swarm a couple of seasons ago that came out of one of my hives and went to another neighbors yard. I was out of town at the time. He was welcome to it. I have had a few swarms go into his yard and he called me to let me know they were there and that I should come collect them. At times, I wish he would have taken them and have told him so. Make peace if you can, but determine whether your State, county, or city have bee regulating statutes or ordinances, and IF you are in a development, if there are restrictive covenants or neighborhood association rules that could cause trouble in an open dispute. If you do have to go into battle, it doesn't hurt to have scouted the battle ground.
Swarm traps ?? :roll:
Thouse are my birdhouses ! :-D
mvh Edward :-P
He should take care and look after his bees so they don't swarm!
In an urban area it is a real nuisance for everybody accept for bee keepers!
He is a BAD beekeeper!
He is kind of rude demanding you change your ways, you were there first.
In the next 5 years the county is going to build on a forest meadow behind my house, It will bee a Cold day in :evil: beefore I move my hives from my yard! :jerry: :jerry: :brian: :jerry: :jerry:
I'm sick and tired of putting up with other peoples crap, my house my rules and I'll do what I want, when I want, If I want!
mvh Edward :-P
QuoteThouse are my birdhouses !
you crack me up :-)
i think MB has it. i have run into this misinformation also. people think that swarm traps entice hives to swarm rather than just giving the swarm a place to go.
as for stealing bees...unless he sees them swarm, how would they know they were his bees. if you didn't have the swarm traps up and the bees swarmed, what would he do?
personally, i'd take them down. then i'd assist him in inserting them....oops :jail:...family friendly....you get the idea.....
Quote from: Michael Bush on February 17, 2014, 11:28:13 AM
I think he is under the misunderstanding that the traps will cause the bees to swarm. They won't. Or that they will keep him from catching his swarms. He can still catch them and put them in his hives, but if he doesn't why should he care if they end up in your hive instead of the trees? I think he just doesn't understand how this affects his bees, which is not at all.
I would like to know if he is going to give back your swarms that going to his yard hahaha
you do realize the beekeeper needs to be in hot pursuit to claim that their his or hers
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
I bend over backwards to stay on good terms with my neighbors because, well, I might have to live near them.
I think trying to educate him in a friendly manner is the most appropriate first step. Go over there with a housewarming present, tell him you've been thinking about what he said, and initiate the conversation. If it doesn't work, at least you tried and your conscience will be clear.
Just remember..."To forgive easily invites offense".
GSF, or tell him ever since your bees died of American Foul Brood you've been trying to raise more but they all keep dying for some reason.
[/quote]
X:X :lau:
O.K. Thanks everyone for your support! I think I'll try a peace offering first. I like to keep in good standing with my neighbors. Its nice to know that the neighbors are keeping an eye on one's property when your away. That said, having my swarm "birdhouses" lol , in use is the only way I can afford to acquire honeybees, raising a young family and all. I know its a slow road because I've only caught one swarm in three years! But I have a lot of patience on my side. Regards, Chris "Edgy"
Edgy, you have a good point. If that don't work there's always the puppy method...
GSF O.K. if it don't work I'll send him your regards. lol
Take them down and store them in your yard and they will still work and still attract bees eventhough they aren't up in the trees.
Sure we all should be good neighbors, but even our neighbors should also be held to the same standard. It works both ways :idunno:
mvh Edward :-P
Thanks Edward, that's an option I could use.
I hate it when beehavers gets angry when their abused and neglected bees swarm or abandon them and they comes at you accusing that you took their bees. It is a reason why I don't make swarm traps and I only catch swarms "if" someone asks me to get that swarm in their property. Even if my apiary is miles away from other beek's hives some people still just want to find someone to blame on their misfortune. I experienced losing bees because of swarming but NEVER did I go to beekeepers nearby accusing them of stealing my bees.
I hope you'll make peace with your neighbor, co'z having a grumpy neighbor is pain in the neck. :-P
Cool thread, lots of advise from all directions!
As most Beeks find out right away or eventually come to understand, bees are 'wild' insects that humans found methods to relatively control with certain limitations, primarily by providing suitable housing. That is about the extent of our most basic input into their lives and our relationships with them.
It is the 'casting of swarms', despite our best efforts at prevention, that always remind us how 'wild' our bees really are.
With that perspective in mind; I personally believe that "Swarms are FREE" for the taking by anyone with a trap set out and offer this advise for the 'new' neighbor, besides being more neighborly ;), build some traps for themselves, (or 'you' could build him one for a 'welcome' gift) as others have also advised. GOOD LUCK, Sure hope it all works out.....you did say the neighbor was a newbee, just might take some time....
Don't burn bridges with the neighbor. You have a hobby in common. This is something you can build on. Why not work together? Help him build swarm traps to put on his property. Agree that the more traps you guys have out, the better chance both of you have of catching a swarm from either individual's hive. Mark the queens differently so that a swarming queen's marking will tell you who she belongs too. Agree that a swarm with a marked queen goes back to the one who marked her, regardless of who's trap she went to. Unmarked queens in a swarm, it goes to the owner of the trap. Bee patient. Talk to one another. Talk about the fact that traps won't induce swarming.
You may think it would feel really good to tell him to mind his own business, but it would feel even better to "turn the other cheek" and make a friend and fellow beek.
By the way...you said you are raising a family. How you respond to this neighbor and the relationship you build with or against them, will be watched and learned by your family. This is a teachable moment for them.
Quote from: chux on February 18, 2014, 09:31:25 AM
Don't burn bridges with the neighbor. You have a hobby in common. This is something you can build on. Why not work together? Help him build swarm traps to put on his property. Agree that the more traps you guys have out, the better chance both of you have of catching a swarm from either individual's hive. Mark the queens differently so that a swarming queen's marking will tell you who she belongs too. Agree that a swarm with a marked queen goes back to the one who marked her, regardless of who's trap she went to. Unmarked queens in a swarm, it goes to the owner of the trap. Bee patient. Talk to one another. Talk about the fact that traps won't induce swarming.
You may think it would feel really good to tell him to mind his own business, but it would feel even better to "turn the other cheek" and make a friend and fellow beek.
X:X X:X
Thanks, chux.
:goodpost:
If you are member of a local beeks club try to invite your neighbor who is also a beekeeper to join your club in that way you will be best buddies. :mrgreen:
Chux wins this thread!! :th_thumbsupup:
Good reminder to me that there is always a third way if we calm ourselves and think about it.
Thanks!
love,
ziffa
If they are not obnoxious I vote for chux ´s solution :cheer:
mvh Edward :-P
Quote from: edward on February 18, 2014, 10:41:52 AM
If they are not obnoxious I vote for chux ´s solution :cheer:
mvh Edward :-P
If they are obnoxious, burn their house down :roll:
Putting all joking aside (if I can), try to make peace with your neighbor. It could very well be that this person has some misconceptions about swarm traps. Maybe try to enter into a conversation with them about bees such as; Are you going to do so and so at a certain time, or When do you plan to inspect your hive - offer some help.
Anyway, the best of luck to you.
Thanks again for all the great advice! Making extra traps for him is an excellent idea. I'll take a couple over to him as a peace offering. Regards, Chris "Edgy"
Quote from: Edgy on February 19, 2014, 01:03:01 AM
Thanks again for all the great advice! Making extra traps for him is an excellent idea. I'll take a couple over to him as a peace offering. Regards, Chris "Edgy"
Edgy,
When I was a kid growing up, my Mom had a saying that she used quite often, she would tell us, "If you want a monkey, you can go and buy yourself one". Translated to today's generation, I would say it's the equivalent of telling someone, "Don't try to play me".
Point being, the last thing I would do is make this guy swarm traps, or anything else till he changes his attitude. Why reward poor behavior? This guy acts like a jackass, and your response is to bring him gifts. :?
What kind of message does that send? Don't be an enabler! :)
I'm not saying lower yourself to his level and create your own version of the Hatfield's and McCoy's, I'd certainly be polite and cordial. But gifts to reward his bad behavior.....definitely NOT!
Good Luck!
Quote from: Edgy on February 19, 2014, 01:03:01 AMI'll take a couple over to him as a peace offering.
Who broke the Peace?
As I understand he moved in after your traps that you've had up for Three years?
Also you have caught at least one swarm with your traps Before he arrived?
So because he moved in you cant trap any future swarms , even if they are not from him?
My position is that beekeepers that let there bees swarm in an urban area are incompetent and cause a nuisance if there bees wined up in someones house. Causing a costly cut out that results in destruction of a wall or roof.
mvh Edward :-P
"Kindness begets Kindness"
We catch more flies (or bees) w/ honey"
"Do onto your neighbor as you would have them do onto you".................. :-\........just saying.
Until they do you first :chop:
Quote from: T Beek on February 19, 2014, 10:43:45 AM
"Kindness begets Kindness"
We catch more flies (or bees) w/ honey"
"Do onto your neighbor as you would have them do onto you".................. :-\........just saying.
In that case, maybe you should mow his lawn and wash and wax his car while you're at it! :lau: :lau: :lau:
It appears as a society we've got a very long way to go.........although we keep taking the roads most traveled...... :-\ while avoiding those less traveled :? :? See the cat? See the cradle? (thanks KV).
"Fear begets Fear"....................pass it on.................. :)
Sometimes when you turn the other cheek you wined up with two slapped cheeks :fishhit: :buttkick:
mvh Edward :-P
Quote from: T Beek on February 19, 2014, 01:28:05 PM
It appears as a society we've got a very long way to go.........although we keep taking the roads most traveled...... :-\ while avoiding those less traveled :? :? See the cat? See the cradle? (thanks KV).
"Fear begets Fear"....................pass it on.................. :)
OH YEAH...Here we go with the cat and the cradle again! :brian: :brian: :brian:
As with most issues T Beek, I think we're going to have to simply agree to disagree! :-D
Quote from: edward on February 19, 2014, 02:28:20 PM
Sometimes when you turn the other cheek you wined up with two slapped cheeks :fishhit: :buttkick:
mvh Edward :-P
Edward, you are a brilliant mind. :-D
Moots, I have never backed down from a fight, except once in the 5th grade. Your right, I didn't realize that I would be rewarding him for his actions. I totally see your point. I need to figure out something to get him to calm down. Humm........... Thanks, Edgy
edward...Love your posts! LOL Thanks man! Edgy
Work together. Give a gift if you want. He isnt a dog that needs to be trained to behave. One problem with society today is that nobody is willing to be imposed upon or stepped on in any way. Pride....hmmmm. He is your neighbor. Be like the nieghbor you want to have.
if you give him a gift it seems more like he's training you. this guy sounds like he's a new dog wizzing on your fence post. i wouldn't confront him but i wouldn't go telling him he's the new alpha male either. i'd ignore him until he came complaining to me again. then i'd politely tell him that those traps were there before him and if he persisted i'd start reading up on trespassing and harassment laws in the area. it's sad that it has to be that way but this guy sounds like he wouldn't think twice about trying to make your life difficult. avoid the confrontation but have your ducks in a row if he starts bugging you again. good luck.
Ooops, I thought this thread was about beekeeping "ethics"...........sorry for the bother :laugh:. "Surprise!" No room for 'that' discussion, heh :?
One has to just assume (?) that all parties have some form of ethics to discuss and offer first though......Good luck to all my brothers and Sisters.......you're gonna need it. :-D
If I've learned anything from the posts above, its how much I appreciate 'my' closest neighbors, one a quarter mile, the other a half mile away. We all know we're there for each other when and if 'anything' arises. Guess I should consider that a blessing......and do now more than before.....
THANKS for all the reminders.... :) Now.....go punch that guy in the face and get it over with (NOT!)......neighbor (?)......... :roll: What a crowd.......?
Most neighbors are back boards. What is thrown at them, bounces right back. Good or bad. It's human nature.
Ethics; the study of standards of conduct and moral judgement, the system or code of morals of a particular person or group.
Ethos; the characteristics and distinguishing attitudes, habits, beliefs, etc of an individual or group.
Quote from: chux on February 19, 2014, 10:45:21 PM
Work together. Give a gift if you want. He isnt a dog that needs to be trained to behave. One problem with society today is that nobody is willing to be imposed upon or stepped on in any way. Pride....hmmmm. He is your neighbor. Be like the nieghbor you want to have.
Again you have my X:X and admiration for your thoughtfulness (almost missed this comment among all the fog :) PRIDE indeed. There's a very good reason Pride is considered 'one' of the "Seven Deadly Sins."
Quote from: Edgy on February 19, 2014, 10:29:34 PM
Moots, I have never backed down from a fight, except once in the 5th grade. Your right, I didn't realize that I would be rewarding him for his actions. I totally see your point. I need to figure out something to get him to calm down. Humm........... Thanks, Edgy
Whiskey? ;)
Whiskey? ;)
[/quote]
Oh that's probably not a good idea, if his neighbors attitude is so bad sober I'd hate to see what whiskey would do to it. : )
I retread the original post and this persons attitude is unbelievable. The idea that he demanded the traps come done without any discussion doesn't bode well for the future.
Times like this I really like my Amish neighbors : )
""Ethos; the characteristics and distinguishing attitudes, habits, beliefs, etc of an individual or group.""
I think the new words for that are profiling and discrimination.
The OP didn't offer nearly the detail of this 'confrontation' (between beekeepers) some posters apparently presume. The finger pointing so far has gone in one direction. Perhaps we should invite the 'offending' neighbor to join us...as a fellow Beek...to learn their side...........What about that? Doesn't everyone want to know? :idunno:
Before passing judgement on either party (not my personal style or ethos), I'd like a little more info about the EVENT. "WHO" really knows "who" the jerk is.....really? :) Misunderstandings are all too common whenever humans are involved ;)
Just wondering........ :-\....................Is this a discussion seeking 'ETHICAL IDEAS' for solutions to a common problem or just another drama party used to beat another person down.........? The whole thing is beginning to resemble some reality TV Show..... :laugh:
(perhaps this topic should be moved to the COFFEE HOUSE?)
Quote from: iddee on February 20, 2014, 08:33:07 AM
""Ethos; the characteristics and distinguishing attitudes, habits, beliefs, etc of an individual or group.""
I think the new words for that are profiling and discrimination.
Would you care to elaborate some on this?
Shouldn't need it. It's pretty clear in my opinion. Shying away or getting closer to a person or group because of the groups known habits, etc.
Quote from: T Beek on February 20, 2014, 06:59:07 AM
If I've learned anything from the posts above, its how much I appreciate 'my' closest neighbors, one a quarter mile, the other a half mile away. We all know we're there for each other when and if 'anything' arises. Guess I should consider that a blessing......and do now more than before.....
Yeah, nothing makes for good neighbors like DISTANCE! :laugh:
Quote from: T Beek on February 20, 2014, 06:59:07 AM
THANKS for all the reminders.... :) Now.....go punch that guy in the face and get it over with (NOT!)......neighbor (?)......... :roll: What a crowd.......?
Really T Beek, aren't you being just a bit disingenuous? Wouldn't any "reasonable" person have to agree that there's A LOT of socially acceptable middle ground in between "showering the guy with gifts" and "punching him in the face"???
Yet you want to make it sound like since some of us believe that Edgy shouldn't be busily sweating away his day, in his workshop, pounding out swarm traps to try and win the love, affection, and approval of his new neighbor....Who by the way...just happened to behave like a prick on their first and only encounter...that somehow we're the ones with a problem. REALLY? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
A swarm in the the bushes = mine
A swarm in a low tree = mine
A swarm on a low branch = mine
A swarm in the mailbox = mine
A swarm in a garden shed = mine
A swarm in a barn = mine
A swarm on the outside of a house = mine
A swarm in a swarmbox = mine
A swarm in the neighbors chimney = not mine
A swarm in the neighbors house inside the walls = not mine
A swarm in the local kindergarten = not mine
Many states , city's and Towns are relaxing the laws and making beekeeping in urban areas leagal as it should bee!
This is a good thing an positive for the neighborhoods.
If beekeepers let there bees swarm out of Control all over the Place the laws are sooner or later going to bee turned back to the dark ages and it will beecome illegal to keep bees in urban areas! :police:
Don't let the hives swarm! If they do Catch them beefore they beecome a nuisance to the public! :police:
BEE a GOOD BEEKEEPER and NEIGHBOR :angel:
MVH EDWARD :-P
I tell the old sod to suck eggs. don't like what i do with my property.
call my lawyer then sue me you'll find 50 traps
darn progressives think your land is theirs
relent, let em and you'll be sorry. your under no obligation
zoned as what?
hes got bees you got bees were equal
jay
Well I didn't think after 4 pages there was anything to add..... But..
By your description it seems like he only has one hive. That maybe the reason for his angst. If he is a new or not experienced beek then he may have lost hives before (one is especially hard to keep alive) and maybe worried that his will abscond and leave him with none. A possible solution maybe to offer to help him split his hive or offer him a frame with a queen cell on it. And of course help him with swarm management. I know last year to avoid swarms with spilt 2 hives into 5 and I think we still missed a few real late swarms because we went out of town. But if like most keepers he ends up with hives than he wants he'll probably not be so worried about the traps. I know I am dreading about a month from now when Mine will need to be split as swarm control. I'll have to stick some out on my second property 45 minutes away. And I have a friend who wants one. I don't want to post a package for sale on craigslist and I run top bars so I could only 'sell' packages or whole hives and mine are natural cell size so wouldn't work with most foundations. Just too hard to worry about selling. Back to point. Find out how many hives he wants and help him accomplish that within reason and he'll be better off and so will you. The only condition being that if you have a ton and he also wants a ton I guess it is possible for you to run out of foraging but since in nature there can be lots of hives within the area unless you have poor forage or a lot of competition you'll be just fine.
Quote from: HomeSteadDreamer on February 22, 2014, 09:40:13 PMit is possible for you to run out of foraging but since in nature there can be lots of hives within the area unless you have poor forage or a lot of competition you'll be just fine.
And what will he bee demanding when this happens?
Will he bee asking, or demanding that you relocate your hives out of "HIS" area?
Stand by your :jerry: guns :jerry:
mvh Edward :-P
Folks, don't turn this into a coffee house post, be forwarned. Those that know what I'm talking about, this is a one time warning.
ya ok turn the cheek. but my traps are my traps
Or you could move your trap to a place where the neighbor can't see it and if you catch a swarm no one is the wiser...