I wish to briefly summarize what I think is the correct way to keep bees alive in this era of mites, chemicals, and unwanted African bee genes. This method is described in great detail in a six part article Kirk Webster wrote for the American Bee Journal in 1997. Those of you who have this magazine are advised to reread it. Those who don't, should be able to read Kirk's upcoming series in the Bee Journal this spring. Let me pint out that this is a person who has dedicated himself to a more natural method of beekeeping; one that eschews drugs and chemicals, as well as importation of bees and queens, except as a means for stock improvement. In his own words:
"[20 years ago] I decided it was the right time to begin working seriously on a northern apiary centered around queen rearing and stock selection. Right now is the right time to start planning for a different way of life; to move away from our failing social and economic system. A society that uses everything and take scare of nothing isn't sustainable."
"On three different occasions I have lost 50% of my full sized colonies. But I have never lost more than 25% of the nucleus colonies [over winter]. If a yard of 25 double stories goes into winter with two nucs on top of each, that makes 75 colonies total. In my worse case scenario (50% loss of full sized colonies and 25% loss of nucs) there are still 50 colonies left alive in spring. The nucs all have young, proven queens and by equalizing the brood the entire yard can be rebuilt to honey-producing strength and still yield 25 nucs for use elsewhere."
"During June and July is when new colonies and queens of the best quality can be produced easily and cheaply in the northern states. I have observed a few beekeepers attempt to use this method of making and using nucs, and then give up after experiencing winter losses of 50% or more. They all made at least one of these two fatal errors: 1)They purchased queens of unsuitable stock; or, 2) They started the nucs too late. Here where we don't have a fall flow, it is best for the nucs to plug out before the weather turns cool."
"Untold work and expense has been saved by selecting winter hardy and frugal bees here over several years. By having a system that can accommodate a 20-30% winter loss without economic damage, a more natural system based on selection pressure becomes possible. As a matter of fact, if I knew that even 40% of my bees would survive and build up without treatments, I would quit using them."
In fact, several years later, Kirk did stop using them. And that is the next chapter.
Quote from: derbeemeisterI wish to briefly summarize what I think is the correct way to keep bees alive in this era of mites, chemicals, and unwanted African bee genes.
I do not know what is the idea in this. Here in north I have never heard any natural way to get rid off mites. Is it manage with varroa without chemicals or treatments?
30% winter losses are much. It is only bees but a lot of frames will be spoiled: feces, mould, fermentation, rotten bees...
Normal winter loss is the queen. When it is question about varroa, it is whole colony. Often colony overwinter but is not any more able to get honey.
Here is explanationhow to catch mites with drone larvae during summer.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/dronemethod.html.
.
Finsky:
I do not know what is the idea in this. Here in north I have never heard any natural way to get rid off mites. Is it manage with varroa without chemicals or treatments?
ME:
Yes. It is not a new idea, like I have said. It starts with Langstroth, is expanded by Brother Adam and updated by Kirk Webster. It is essentially allowing susceptible bees to die off, and to replace them with fresh colonies.
Instead of buying packages from the south, like so many do, you make your own new colonies. Varroa does not build up to critical levels in the nucs.
So that if a lot of hives die in the fall, or during winter, you still have the nucs coming on for the next season. Of course, these colonies will provide bees for the next batch of nucs.
I hope over the next few days it will become more clear what I am describing. I am trying to keep these postings brief and concise. The technique is described fully in the American Bee Journal.
Also see "Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey"
Herve
Quote from: derbeemeister
Instead of buying packages from the south, like so many do, you make your own new colonies. Varroa does not build up to critical levels in the nucs.
Perhaps we have here so much nature that we are not eager to keep bees "naturally". As we say here, varroa is not problem here any more. Coltrol is simple. Bees have no brood at winter and it is easy to kill mites from hives. 70% of beekeepers use oxalic acid trickling, and it is least harmfull to bees.
http://bees.freesuperhost.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1136436349.
> As we say here, varroa is not problem here any more. Control is simple. Bees have no brood at winter and it is easy to kill mites from hives. 70% of beekeepers use oxalic acid trickling, and it is least harmfull to bees.
First off, Oxalic is NOT legal in the USA. Canada, yes. But I wonder how long it will take before mites can resist that, too? The point is, to either get bees that can live without chems, or develop a technique that can enable us to expand quickly enough to stay ahead of the losses. Kirk's method does both
Herve
True, not legal, but people do it. The mites are pretty resistant to all of the "legal" methods.
Herve - what are you using now for mite control?
Do you have your bees in Cambridge? I'm there four days a week. I would like to see your seup at some point.
Quote from: derbeemeisterBut I wonder how long it will take before mites can resist that, too?
I do not worry about that. There are a lot of people making that development work and I am not going to make me hero in this issue. I wait what others get ready. What I check every day is in what direction Downjones and Nasdaq are going. :wink: - As stock saver ...
QuoteBut I wonder how long it will take before mites can resist that, too?
Highly unlikely unless they evolve some sheild around their mouth. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't it dissolve the proboscis on the mite and it dies by starvation? It loses it's suction ability and is unable to feed on the bee.
No resistance has been reported in anything that physically removes a vital organ like a (mouth) :lol:
Quote from: downunderCorrect me if I'm wrong but doesn't it dissolve ..
I have read that is is not truly known how oxalic acid trickling really affects on mites, but it affects. So it is impossible to guess what happens next.
The researchers I collaborate with which includes Dr Denis Anderson (who named varroa destructor) say that on microscopic examination of the varroa after oxalic acid treatment, they have a dissolved proboscis and are unable to attatch to the bees. There is literature out there to support this.
http://www.moraybeekeepers.co.uk/varroa.htm
Hello
You should maybe think a little bit harder about insect resistance. Like for example, what would happen if every time you saw a roach, you stomped it? Can roaches survive stomping? Of course not. But that's why roaches are scurrying around in the dark, when they can't be seen! That's their defense.
So, mites could develop over time that had the ability to hide in cells whenever they smelled oxalic, and soon they would be the only mites left. Resistance to treatments can take many forms. That's why we want to get off the pesticide treadmill & use resistance for our benefit: to raise resistant bees
H. A.
Quote from: derbeemeisterto raise resistant bees.
Of course and varroa is
not only problem with bees. Resistancy is valuable feature. I can get rid off European foulbrood and chalkbrood easily when I change the queen.
Many write that hygienic behaviour is important. In Australia they found that 10% of their bee stock showed hygienic behaviour. How many queen breeder makes hygienic tests? In my country.
But it is awfull to me that new beekeepers believe that some beehives owner can change the world and just jump to new train. But it is not necessary that all beginners grow to beekeper.
Natural selection must work among beekeepers too.
Quote from: downunderThe researchers I collaborate with which includes Dr Denis Anderson (who named varroa destructor) say that on microscopic examination of the varroa after oxalic acid treatment, they have a dissolved proboscis and are unable to attatch to the bees. There is literature out there to support this.
http://www.moraybeekeepers.co.uk/varroa.htm
This is good ant this too
http://www.moraybeekeepers.co.uk/downloads/managing%20varroa%20new.pdfbut
downunder what happened later to your hives after those hot days 48C . Beetles attached to hives and ...
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.
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I lost 3 doubles and six nucleus colonies to the dreaded temperature and beetles. The extreme heat stress made them throw dead brood on the floor. This provided the medium for a feast.
The hives I ventilated and spaced out all recovered and are doing well. Some went broodless for a while but are laying well again now.
I lost two more nucleus colonies to beetles, high humidity and overcrowding since. The bees absconded into the grass and left a feast for the beetles.
This absconding is becoming common around beetle affected areas in Australia. In the past pre-SHB I had never seen a hive abscond. Now we see numerous giving up and dying in the grass wings covered in slime.
We beleive that european bees are novice's at absconding. They leave resources behind which is why SHB is so successful. African bees are professional absconders taking most of their resources. This may be part of the reason why SHB is not a major concern to scutellata bees.
QuoteCorrect me if I'm wrong but doesn't it dissolve the proboscis on the mite and it dies by starvation? It loses it's suction ability and is unable to feed on the bee.
That's the first time I've read that theory. I have read speculation that oxalic acid works by dissolving the cuticle of the mite and it dies from dehydration. I've also read that oxalic acid works more as a systemic poison to the mite. Bees ingest the acid when it is dissolved in syrup or breath it when it is vaporized. Mites are thought by some to die when they ingest the acidified blood of their host bees. That scenario seems more likely to me, but of course it's just my personal opinion.
QuoteI have read that is is not truly known how oxalic acid trickling really affects on mites
My thoughts, too.
I wrote:
I wish to briefly summarize what I think is the correct way to keep bees alive in this era of mites, chemicals, and unwanted African bee genes. This method is described in great detail in a six part article Kirk Webster wrote for the American Bee Journal in 1997.
ME:
Well, nobody seems to be interested in this. I didn't come here to talk about Oxalic Acid, which is illegal anyway in USA. There are serious alternatives to the conventional chemical path on the one hand, and the small cell fringe on the other. The problem is, it is a fairly complicated management technique and no doubt will not interest anyone who wants the quick fix (no such thing anyway)
I have talked to Kirk in person, he makes sense!!!
he's been in beekeeping for more then thirty years I think.
And has seen some pretty horrific loses like in the hundreds or
even thousands over the years, he's still in the bizz. so his work
has alot of merrit!!!!!!
In my veiw...anyway!
chemicals are in the way and if we dont get smarter soon
the earth wont be our home anymore and bees cant as of yet pollinate in space let alone live.....if we are even going to have a chance of saving
ourselves at this point in the game, it will take an open heart, an open mind
a ablity to change and everyones input!!!!!!!!!!!
there wont even beeeeeee a stock market :D :lol: :lol:
I beleive its time to take the gift god gave us alot more serius
if one has a gift with bees like you finsky, your not a hero your an asset
there are no more heros !!!!! just people to feed and problems to fix.
Ok I'm sorry I'm going on again!
Have fun!!!!!!!!!
I asked Kirk why he wasn't online, and I told him about beemaster
he said he might get himself in trouble, now I know what he was sayin!!!
Quote from: TREBORchemicals are in the way and if we dont get smarter soon the earth wont be our home anymore !!!
However, even if you are going to make some kind of revolution, it is good to know: " oxalic acid ... In beeswax there is no notable risk of residues, because the acids are not fat soluble."
Knowledge adds pain....
Thats cool,
I 've been reading your posts and plan on using O.A. myself this coming year, don't get me wrong, I use chemicals (formic acid in fall) but if I
can learn of more long term things that nature aready has (and we upset),
then I think it would be a smarter investment, the harsh chemicals that may do more damage then we can see!
Knowledge aids in not having to know pain.....!if I know it will burn me, I wouldn't stick my finger in it....!!!! :lol:
we know by now that chemicals are trying to be silver bullets
there is no silver bullet, just dependence!
Nature had it right before we came along,... and,.. we are suppose to be apart of that!! Question is, how do we get back?
Quote from: derbeemeister
Well, nobody seems to be interested in this. I didn't come here to talk about Oxalic Acid, which is illegal anyway in USA. There are serious alternatives to the conventional chemical path on the one hand, and the small cell fringe on the other. The problem is, it is a fairly complicated management technique and no doubt will not interest anyone who wants the quick fix (no such thing anyway)
Actually, the idea of wintering nucs over on top of full hives sounds interesting, but I don't have access to the 1997 American Bee Journal (and I only have a subscription to the "other" magazine). Are Kirk's articles or discussions of his method published anywhere online? I've found very little, and what there is seems conflicting.
-- Kris
Quote from: derbeemeister
Well, nobody seems to be interested in this. I didn't come here to talk about Oxalic Acid, which is illegal anyway in USA.
Ya, and why isn't it appoved? Perhaps because there is no $$$ in it for a big corporation? So powdered sugar treating is "illegal" too with you? How about feeding sugar? The fact is most people using OA see it as a safer and better working alternative to the man made "legal" chemicals.
Quote from: derbeemeister
So, mites could develop over time that had the ability to hide in cells whenever they smelled oxalic, and soon they would be the only mites left.
Obviously you don't know much about OA. It is an organic acid that is naturally occurs in plants. Where are these mites going to hide to get away if OA is everywhere?
Quote from: derbeemeister
There are serious alternatives to the conventional chemical path on the one hand, and the small cell fringe on the other. The problem is, it is a fairly complicated management technique and no doubt will not interest anyone who wants the quick fix (no such thing anyway)
Small cell fringe? There are quite a few small cell beekeepers who have been chemical free for years. With much less effort, equipment, and dying bees than what you are proposing.
There are those who are willing to go the effort to become chem free and those that are not. Your not going to change their minds. To be honest, I don't think you are finding much interest because your method is very labor and equipment intensive. If you search these forums, you will find a fair share of folks that are interested in small cell, which is also proven and less intensive.
Personally I thought this so far sounded a lot like what the small cellers do only with a lot more work to get there.
Quote from: TREBORwe know by now that chemicals are trying to be silver bullets there is no silver bullet, just dependence!
Nature had it right before we came along,..
I can tell you that I have bee in duty in environmental protection 14 years in the city hall of capital city. I am very aware what is happening and what is not.
But I do not accept that ordinary taxpayer or shoe trampler could save the globe with his abnormal behaviour.
You cannot save the globe with keeping bees. It just does not happen so. I can only make customer's mouth sweet.
I am not in those groups who think that small is beautiful. It is not. I think that big things are magnificent.
I have specialised now to find out what is wasting in our normal way to organise works. If you take a book "Toyota Way" you see a glance what it can be.
Just now I start a project. I made a suggestion 10 years ago, when we handled waste recycling program: With organising logistics of waste handling we can save more than using again waste material" It took 10 years to people to find out that they are not able to that.
I have stated my opinion about sustainable environment:
"It is not old buildings or old trees or to fear chemicals which is our sustainable inheritance to younger generation. The inheritance is how we think, how we learn, how we take care of our common affairs, how we organise things, how we tolerate waste of time, labour, machine work, transports; How we waste good ideas when we do not handle them on work places. ( My bosses did not liked the idea, if I say !)
The sustainable inheritance is how we manage our common affairs. It is not indivudual way. We cannot go back and take into use our old loose habits to pass by when you see problems: jammed traffic, standing machines, open pits in the main street of city; one worker working, 3 watching and the fifth worker's gloves on ground.
I am just studying how we can use
economies of scale in parks and streets maintenance.
This my mission: How can we get better every day city environment quality with half price. I have seen any change to save environment by beekeeping.
Economies of scales means: Do not waste skills of people!
If you want to learn how to protect environment, read this
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0071392319/103-7778422-7182238?v=glance&n=283155The main principle of Toyota Corporation is: Avoid wasting .
Another splendid book is
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1563271435/qid=1140148120/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/103-7778422-7182238?s=books&v=glance&n=283155.
you missed my point
Quote from: TREBORyou missed my point
Yes, and I missed mine too :P
Quote from: FinskyHow we waste good ideas when we do not handle them on .
.
.
> Ya, and why isn't it appoved? Perhaps because there is no $$$ in it for a big corporation?
It isn't approved because there is a long tedious process involved and nobody has taken it that far. We now have formic acid and thymol products available, and these were pushed through by small companies, not Bayer.
> So powdered sugar treating is "illegal" too with you?
No. I am taking about the actual approved chemicals vs. the unapproved ones. I am aware of the laws; I don't write them.
> Obviously you don't know much about OA.
That is certainly a sure way to end this conversation -- by insulting me. I am spending my own time on this, and don't intend to respnd to comments like that. I imagine mites can adapt to whatever we throw at them, they have so far. DON'T BE SO SURE!
> Small cell fringe? There are quite a few small cell beekeepers who have been chemical free for years. With much less effort, equipment, and dying bees than what you are proposing.
I don't call replacing all your combs and have them all redrawn much less effort. Some beekeepers have thousands or tens of thousands of supers.
> If you search these forums, you will find a fair share of folks that are interested in small cell, which is also proven and less intensive.
Many people are interested in it; no one has proven anything. Ask Mike Bush. There are no real studies on it; nothing ever published that can prove a direct correlation between using small cells and lower mortality. Remember, it has to work over time, not just the first season. Allowing the bees to swarm reduces mite load the first season, but the mites build up to fatal levels the second, according to a study done in Europe. Furthermore, small cell theory is based on an ERROR. Bees have not been artificially enlarged by foundation. These was easily proved by measuring the bees in frameless hives which existed in many countries in europe and south america.
> Personally I thought this so far sounded a lot like what the small cellers do only with a lot more work to get there.
I certainly don't know how to respond to that statement. It's not like it at all. The nucleus system takes advantage of the fact that hives can produce a lot more bees in the spring if you make splits in the correct way. These splits can build up and be ready for winter without developing heavy mite loads like normal full strength colonies do, especially during a heavy honey flow. Finally, it proposes overwintering nucs (actually strong singles by this time) in order to have more bees alive in the spring. This allows you to dump out hives that have a high mite load (these are going to die over winter anyway) as well as allows you to withstand higer winter losses, due to not treating for mites with chems.
To everyone who is interested in the Langstroth, Brother Adam, Kirk Webster nucleus system, I will answer questions about it. Please don't burden this discussion with side issues like oxalic and small cells. I have tlaked about small cells until I am blue in the face. If you believe in it, fine, I don't.
Herve
Quote from: derbeemeister
Many people are interested in it; no one has proven anything. Ask Mike Bush. There are no real studies on it; nothing ever published that can prove a direct correlation between using small cells and lower mortality. Remember, it has to work over time, not just the first season. Allowing the bees to swarm reduces mite load the first season, but the mites build up to fatal levels the second, according to a study done in Europe. Furthermore, small cell theory is based on an ERROR. Bees have not been artificially enlarged by foundation. These was easily proved by measuring the bees in frameless hives which existed in many countries in europe and south america.
I think Michael Bush would disagree with that. Micheal and the Lusby's are just two good examples of small cell success, and both have been doing it "over time" now.
Quote from: derbeemeister
I certainly don't know how to respond to that statement. It's not like it at all. The nucleus system takes advantage of the fact that hives can produce a lot more bees in the spring if you make splits in the correct way. These splits can build up and be ready for winter without developing heavy mite loads like normal full strength colonies do, especially during a heavy honey flow. Finally, it proposes overwintering nucs (actually strong singles by this time) in order to have more bees alive in the spring. This allows you to dump out hives that have a high mite load (these are going to die over winter anyway) as well as allows you to withstand higer winter losses, due to not treating for mites with chems.
Again, creating nucs, wintering nucs over double box hives, dumping etc. seems like a lot of extra manipulation and work. Which never gets reduced over time. Yes, small cell also requires effort to regress, but with 4.9 foundation and the fully drawn 4.9 being worked on, it will be much easier. But more importantly, once you are regressed, the added effort stops.
Quote from: derbeemeister
To everyone who is interested in the Langstroth, Brother Adam, Kirk Webster nucleus system, I will answer questions about it. Please don't burden this discussion with side issues like oxalic and small cells. I have tlaked about small cells until I am blue in the face. If you believe in it, fine, I don't.
I'm not saying it doesn't work, but it sounds like you believe it is the "only" answer. There are always multiple ways to solve a problem. I'll go away now as to not contaminate your post anymore with "other" methods. As you seem to have a set agenda, I would suspect others will move away from this post as well.
Papa, whats a shoe trampler ?
> I'm not saying it doesn't work, but it sounds like you believe it is the "only" answer. There are always multiple ways to solve a problem. I'll go away now as to not contaminate your post anymore with "other" methods. As you seem to have a set agenda, I would suspect others will move away from this post as well.
! Nothing could be further from the truth. I am trying to describe a technique that will work in the North, for those who are interested. I have worked with bees in both the south and the north and many things do not translate. I have worked for over a dozen different beekeepers and spoken with hundreds, so there is no one in the world that believes in the mulitplicity of techniques more than I do. My set agenda is to try to describe this method for those who are interested, and to minimize the shouting that tends to occur in an unmoderated discussion. I am only try to stay focused, not to try to stifle dissent. I have nothing to gain here, and I am only here out of a sense of commitment to beekeeping. The problem is, and you are right: this technique requires work. But since the early seventies I have seen may lazy beekeepers come and go. I will grant that Lusbys and others are hard workers, otherwise they would not have survived. When you look closely at what they have done, it may be that the small cell in fact has nothing to do with it. The heavy selection of bees, the making of splits, and the possible evolution of the mites to a balance point (where they don't kill the colony) are all potential factors in the bees' survival.
Herve Abeille
Kris writes:
> Actually, the idea of wintering nucs over on top of full hives sounds interesting, but I don't have access to the 1997 American Bee Journal (and I only have a subscription to the "other" magazine). Are Kirk's articles or discussions of his method published anywhere online? I've found very little, and what there is seems conflicting.
You are quite right, not much is available. However, he has told me that starting in April the American Bee Journal is publishing a new series of articles by him. I have the issues from 1997, but I can't put too much up without infringing on copyright. ANyway, there are some key changes since then: mainly, he stopped treating with chems. Back in 97 he was still treating to keep the bees alive. It's hard to watch your bees die!
I will try to summarize agai
Here's what normally happens in the north. I bought 12 hives from a beekeeper who has raised northern bees for years. Got em in spring and had to super up right away. These were boilers, and they made al ot of honey that year (I think it was 2001). We were collecting mites for laboratory studies, so there was NO treatment. After the goldenrod, the supers were taken off. By October, already they were crashing. (Much fewer bees in the hives, bees with shriveled wings, dead brood due to PMS). By November, they were ALL dead. This is the normal course in the north.
Now, a hundred years ago, many beekeepers in the north suffered very sever losses. They tried double walled hives, cellar wintering, etc. This is why the package bee industry was formed and why it has kept going all these years. A six month winter can kill off half or more of your colonies. The difference with varroa is that the bees were dying in the fall! But it amounts to the same thing, dwindling numbers.
Now I have recommended to people who want to keep bees without treating, to just let the bees dies out and replace with packages. The extra honey you get might even pay for the packages. But it isn't sustainable, obviously, and you keep getting bees from the south, which is not what we want. Now, I have nothing against beekeepers in the south, nor the package industry. But the stock selection should take place in the north, where bees are subjected to hard winter.
So here's the deal: you make your own increase in the summer when it is the easiest. If you have good hives, these can give up frames of brood and bees to make the nucs. If you don't want to or can't raise queens, good northern queens can easily be bought IN THE SUMMER. These nucs are allowed to build up until they are strong one story hives packed with honey. They are very unlikely to swarm because: 1) swarm season has passed. 2) hives with queens less than a year old seldom swarm. Still, if you get a heavy flow in September, you may need to put on a super.
The wintering of the nucs doesn't not have to be on top of colonies. In Kirk's article he shows pictures of single story hives stacked in piles and wrapped. There's one picture of forty singles in a big pile, in four layers! This is similar to the bee sheds of Austria. The hives there receive no special wrapping but they are all touching each other, and covered on three sides by the shed. Only the south side is exposed, and that way the sun can warm them during winter, but they are sheltered from wind and shade on the north side.
In the spring you should have enough bees to start the whole process again: building up the colonies to make honey, and make increase, and raise queens from the survivors. By the way, Kirk has strains of Russian bees that are doing well in Vermont. SO it helps to start with stock tha tshows some degree of mite resistance. There are good sources for northern and Russian stock, I am not goin gto name names.
Herve Abeille
PS. Despite what my detractors say, I am not pushing an agenda. I am trying to promote what I think is a sustainable method that closely follows the work of my heroes: A. I. Root, L. L. Langstroth, Brother Adam, and others too numerous to mention.
Herve,
I came to the same conclusion. This winter has been easy in MA so far it looks like I will have 100% come through fine. I know a couple of my hives are "boilers", and can easily give up frames to make NUCs. I over wintered one small coloney in a single deep with a shallow super, they are doing as well as the double deeps. If a pkg. was $30.00 it might not be worth the trouble, but I get the feeling pkg.'s are going to be higher than last year. For the price of 1pkg. I can buy 5 queens.
Chad
Keep local bees only (or mostly)
Let the weak ones die off and expand from the survivors.
Building up strong hives... (SCers do it with unlimited brood nest)
The only thing you left out is letting the bees build on their own with no foundation, (Since you don't think they would build to the very small side) ((and probably won't that far north))
I didn't notice where you might replace any/all contaminated comb.
But, and I don't know why, splitting and making nucs to me is just the same as splitting and making another colony of bees. SO if you have 20 hives and 20 nucs (stacked/unstacked/whatever) and you lose 5 hives and 2 nucs you lost 7 colonies over winter. This is where you confuse me. Saying you have more bees come spring when you might have lost a few colonies.
> Keep local bees only (or mostly)
* NO. Northern bees. Southern local bees are apt to be part or all African
> Let the weak ones die off and expand from the survivors.
* RIGHT
> Building up strong hives... (SCers do it with unlimited brood nest)
* Unlimited brood nest is nothing new. They sure didn't invent it!
> But, and I don't know why, splitting and making nucs to me is just the same as splitting and making another colony of bees. SO if you have 20 hives and 20 nucs (stacked/unstacked/whatever) and you lose 5 hives and 2 nucs you lost 7 colonies over winter. This is where you confuse me. Saying you have more bees come spring when you might have lost a few colonies.
* from my original post:
"If a yard of 25 double stories goes into winter with two nucs on top of each, that makes 75 colonies total. worse case scenario (50% loss of full sized colonies and 25% loss of nucs) there are still 50 colonies left alive in spring. The nucs all have young, proven queens and by equalizing the brood the entire yard can be rebuilt to honey-producing strength and still yield 25 nucs for use elsewhere."
* You have to increase to a number greater than your normal number of hives.
Quote from: derbeemeister> Keep local bees only (or mostly)
* NO. Northern bees. Southern local bees are apt to be part or all African
I wasn't meaning for the northern folks to import from the south. By saying "keep local bees" I meant local to your area whereever that might bee.
BUT...
now that you brought it up, I have to wonder what is wrong with a little AHB in the mix if they are not aggresive? As I have mentioned, if all these bees I have gotten from the wild have AHB in them, and they aren't mean, what is the problem?
Quote from: derbeemeister
"If a yard of 25 double stories goes into winter with two nucs on top of each, that makes 75 colonies total. worse case scenario (50% loss of full sized colonies and 25% loss of nucs) there are still 50 colonies left alive in spring. The nucs all have young, proven queens and by equalizing the brood the entire yard can be rebuilt to honey-producing strength and still yield 25 nucs for use elsewhere."
* You have to increase to a number greater than your normal number of hives.
OK. So from what I said that you said and what I understand that the small cellers say and what you say, if there were small cellers that did this nuc stacking/hording/expanding, which I believe there are some that do, and if you alowed your bees to build from scratrch and don't treat for anything, what is the difference? I sure don't see it.
Quote from: Jerrymac
> what is the difference? I sure don't see it
The difference is: all standard equipment. No small cells. But do you see? If keeping the bees alive has mainly to do with selection & making nucs in both cases, then that knocks out the cell size as an important factor.
Quote from: derbeemeister
If keeping the bees alive has mainly to do with selection & making nucs in both cases, then that knocks out the cell size as an important factor.
I know I really don't explain in detail what is on my mind, or going through it, and I guess I think some people understand with out me going into detail and/or furnishing pictures. I never said the small cellers had to make up these nucs to keep the bees alive. I mearly was pointing out that some have indeed made up nucs and kept them alive over winter by placing them atop other hives. I believe this was in order to expand the next comeing season and not to catch back up due to winter losses, for they don't fear winter losses with the small cell.
I am sorry. I know you wish to keep this free of talk about SC. But you really come down hard on the SC thing, then you come along with this idea that sounds to me so much like small cell. And so far you haven't said this was sustainable without the buildup of nucs where SCers claim to sustain with out the extra nucs. So to me you are proving that the SC way is better. What if we dropped the term Small Cell and instead used the term natural sized cell. Would that work better for you? I am not talking about SC foundation. I am talking about letting the bees build from scratch. Then it would be a more natural system... which you call this "Natural Beekeeping in the North"
In our country nucs and new hives are at spring so expencive that it takes one summer's yield to pay it. So to kill hives at fall is not possible.
To feed 20 sugar to hive is worth 20$. With it it goes to next summer. Queens value is 30$. Nucs are not able to forage June's yield.
Hi all
Producing nucs is a basic part of beekeeping and is certainly very good practice. I would suggest in all areas of the world beekeepers would benefit from doing this, particularly those areas with introduced pests and harsh winters. Some worry that producing nucs might reduce the honey crop but nucs can be used to actually increase the crop from large production colonies. (I do accept Finskys point that his seasons are very short. In the south of England our main swarming season is May to June)
I can produce small nucs in the middle of April with imported queens but have to wait until the middle of May for my first batch to start laying. Nucs produced from production hives can be placed beside the parent colonies or moved to other sites and sited beside other colonies, our main flow starts towards the end of June.
Sometimes in order just to keep these hives in single boxes or for the production of section honey these nucs can be moved and the flying bees used to reinforce the production hives. So, far from reducing your crop, you can actually put back far more bees than you removed in the first place and right when the main flow starts.
We have about 60 nucs on site in the summer for beginners to play with during the lessons we run. About this number is over wintered and all are five frame colonies. We do also try to over winter any spare mini mating nucs with about 75% success.
The best bit of advice to any considering these small hives and getting them through the winter is to treat early for Varroa as many treat too late. I treat in the middle of August as this allows for a few cycles of healthy brood before the queen shuts down. This is essential for all colonies!!!!!!!!!!!.
Obviously plenty of food but fed slowly in the Autunm to keep the queen laying but trying not to jam the brood nest until late on.
Ensure all hives are weather proof, these small colonies are very succeptible to damp. I would even suggest going as far as purchasing a small shed from a hardware store and fitting 2 shelves each side top and bottom to house these small hives.
These sheds greatly reduce your winter losses and are worth every penny. Our small colonies in these sheds rarely suffer any losses during the winter unless they are queen related.
I am thinking next year of incorporating some of Finsky's heaters in a hollow shelf with a few holes that correspond with ventilated floors on the nucs to get them off to a flying start.
All of the above is very basic yet there are many who lose colonies in the winter needlessly. In the UK a nuc from our main manufacturer costs £136.00. If that is not incentive enough for a bit of better management I don't know what is.
Regards Ian
Quote from: ian michael davison
I can produce small nucs in the middle of April with imported queens but have to wait until the middle of May for my first batch to start laying. n
Yes, I have done this for 3 years. Queens come from Italy in the middle of May. 80% of them bees start to renew them.
I can do nucs with imported queens but those small nucs have great difficulties with chalkbrood. When I have got bee brood from south I may see easily that my beeyeards sensitivines to chalkbrood and nosema has encreased. Mite is not problem, as I mentioned.
But I have got good genes too. My yieds have jumped. I must decrease disease sensity by selection.
Varroa is not only motive to do some renovations.
To get better spring development I have decided to select queens from colonies which are eager to forage pollen. Radiated pollen is here 12$ per kilo. (=2 lbs.). Frames full of natural pollen are valuable at spring before willows start to bloom.
When we have bad weathers later at spring bees consume their pollen stores during bad week.
.
.
.
>I think Michael Bush would disagree with that.
And I have. Many times. But that's not what he started this thread to discuss. :)
Maybe I'm starting to get a handle on this discussion. (I'm just a 3rd year, after all). But I have more questions.
From what I'm reading, it seems that a northern beekeeper can make several 5 frame nucs in the summer using new summer raised queens. These nucs are allowed to build up through the rest of the summer and fall. If properly fed and protected, they can be overwintered. After they build up in the spring, these nucs can be used to start full colonies. Is this right?
I've read, too, that these summer nucs can be protected through the winter by either placing them on top of a two box colony or placing them tightly together in a small shed. If they are stacked on a colony, are they separated from the main colony by some sort of double-screen divider, or just set on top with their own bottom boards? If put in a shed, what happens when they fly during warm spells if closed in on all four sides? Or would a three sided stucture open on the south side be better?
Can these 5 frame nucs be made from a 10 frame box fitted with a thin (removeable) divider? I build my own boxes and can adjust the width slightly to accomodate the divider. Or I could build wider boxes divided into any number of five frame sections to more-or-less permanently establish a protected "overwintering nuc" area in my beeyard. Would there be advantages or disadvantages to this idea?
On a separate but related line of thought. I like the idea of raising queens from strong and clean local stock, and I had planned to try raising some queens this year using the Miller method. When I pull the queen cells from the finishing colony, can the five frame nucs be used as mating nucs for the new queens, and just let each queen establish her new colony right there? Or are smaller mating nucs still preferred? I'd still want to raise some extra queens for fall requeening of my established hives. I thought I could use regular boxes divided into four 2-frame sections for this.
I'm sure most of you can see where my thoughts are taking me. Can anyone see better ways of doing this?
-- Kris
Quote from: Kris^
From what I'm reading, it seems that a northern beekeeper can make several 5 frame nucs in the summer using new summer raised queens. These nucs are allowed to build up through the rest of the summer and fall. If properly fed and protected, they can be overwintered. After they build up in the spring, these nucs can be used to start full colonies. Is this right?
From 60 latitude to north that is Correct. No problems.
You can raise 5 frame colony to fill langstroth box or raise as 5 frame colony and overwinter them.
Quotesummer nucs can be protected through the winter by either placing them on top of a two box colony
Can these 5 frame nucs be made from a 10 frame box fitted with a thin (removeable) divider?
That works well.
QuoteWhen I pull the queen cells from the finishing colony, can the five frame nucs be used as mating nucs for the new queens, and just let each queen establish her new colony right there? I thought I could use regular boxes divided into four 2-frame sections for this.
Works well
QuoteCan anyone see better ways of doing this?
There are better ways. One is raise that 5 frame hive and then you take brood frames from bigger hive and strengten small hive to normal.
There are many alternatives to get 5 frame hive over winter, but to get it to normal foraging colony is hard work. It is easier to raise whole box colonies.
It depends what you want. Here 5 frame colony ower winter means exta queen. If you want here honey from hive, colony should be one box at spring.
NORTH is relative view.
Quote from: Kris^Maybe I'm starting to get a handle on this discussion. (I'm just a 3rd year, after all). But I have more questions.
From what you wrote, I believe you "get it".
> After they build up in the spring, these nucs can be used to start full colonies. Is this right?
Yes, but they can also be used to salvage colonies that are about to croak, or you can take the queen for requeening a good hive with a poor queen. Brother Adam would use all queens in his overwintered nucs for requeening the overwintered colonies, and then requeen the nucs with new cells.
> If they are stacked on a colony, are they separated from the main colony by some sort of double-screen divider, or just set on top with their own bottom boards?
Set over the inner cover of the hive below, with no opening. The inner cover can be notched to make a small entrance, or you can drill an auger hole in the upper box.
> Or would a three sided stucture open on the south side be better?
That's right, sorry if that was unclear
> Can these 5 frame nucs be made from a 10 frame box fitted with a thin (removeable) divider?
Actually, like Finsky says, a full sized box is probably more practical. A five framer can get very crowded in a short time. But if you want to put two on top, a divided hive works.
> can the five frame nucs be used as mating nucs for the new queens, and just let each queen establish her new colony right there?
that's right
> I'm sure most of you can see where my thoughts are taking me. Can anyone see better ways of doing this?
I think you can learn to graft (transfer). There's nothing really wrong with Miller's way, but if you are young and have good eyes, grafting is not that hard. You have to learn how to pick up the larvae without hurting them, and how to get the right size (they're not much bigger than bee eggs). They are very small, and some sort of spotlight helps a lot. I am almost 60 and must use heavy magnification. Or buy queens from somebody in your area. The main thing is having lots of new hives coming along, since the older colonies seem to be more susceptible to varroa.
Thanks to everyone who has helped make this discussion continue in a civil manner. Be on the lookout for Kirk Webster's articles in the American Bee Journal this spring. You can direct questions or comments to me at
[email protected]
Herve, when are you going to present the scientific proof that this method works? ;) I look forward to it.
Hi all
Kris: Yes I think you get it!!!!!!!!!! :lol:
I think most the points you mention where covered by Finsky and as he says 10 frame colonies do come through a little better than the 5 frame. But both tend to build up in my area as well or sometimes quicker than normal colonies.
You can easily help these smaller (5 frame) hives in the previous Autumn by adding some drawn frames after the honey has been extracted from them. I tend to put 1 frame in the centre of the nest to encourage the queen to lay it up and the rest to the sides. Only add the frame to the centre if you have plenty of bees because you are splitting the brood but the queen normaly starts to lay this up in a day or two.
If a slow steady feed is given in the early Autumn these young queens continue laying far longer than their older counter parts and this provides plenty of young bees for the winter and following spring.
All the nucs you mention above can be used for the raising of queens and the use of 10 frame hive bodies with a divider is very good as you can remove 1 queen for use elsewhere and easily unite the colonies for wintering if you wish. Or should you decide to try and get both through they benefit from some shared heat. The mini nucs you mention are widely used for queen rearing but it's a question of scale and whether they suit your set up.
The only other suggestions I would make are to try some of the poly hives, colonies really benefit from the extra warmth. Keep a small block of candy on these small hives from the middle of the winter as this takes the pressure off their stores. I also treat in the autumn and winter for Varroa with tried and tested methods.If you give some of these methods a go you will soon come up with methods of your own that suit your area, bees and your own style. When your fellow beekeepers are sitting around moaning about the price of bees or the winter losses you can sit back with a smug look on your face and even offer to sell them a couple. AT AN EXTORTIONATE PRICE OF COURSE. :twisted:
Derbeemiester: I don't get the American bee journal so if you could please keep adding a few articles it would be most welcome.
Regards Ian
Quote from: Michael BushHerve, when are you going to present the scientific proof that this method works? ;) I look forward to it.
The method is based on 150 years of beekeeping practices worldwide, and can be fully documented. But what exactly would you like to see proved?
Herve
That it will deal with Varroa, of course.
On these deep box divided 5-frame nucs: do the entrances need to be on opposite sides of the hive? Or can they both be in front, one to the far left and one to the far right? I've read that if making a four chambered box of 2-frame nucs (for mating), the entrances should be one to a side.
-- Kris
Quote from: Michael Bush
That it will deal with Varroa, of course.
OK. If we allow the susceptible hives to die, along with their varroa, that's working, right? Then the survivors will be either somewhat resistant, or just plain lucky. That's natural selection. We all believe in evolution here, right? I refuse to debate evolution.
So, assuming some hives will make it through, you will propagate these hives and rebuild your apiary. This is similar to what Canadian beekeepers have practiced for decades, only instead of starting up every spring with packages, you try to overwinter these nucs.
The real crux is: are the nucs less susceptible to varroa crash? Many people say they are. It appears that varroa is the worst in very large colonies, especially in northern regions, especially where there is a late flow.
I don't know if anyone has systematically studied this question. I have wanted to do a study on it myself for many years. Maybe I should get a grant. I will look into it and tell you what I find out.
H.
>OK. If we allow the susceptible hives to die, along with their varroa, that's working, right? Then the survivors will be either somewhat resistant, or just plain lucky. That's natural selection. We all believe in evolution here, right? I refuse to debate evolution.
And I let them draw their own comb and survive or not and they most all survive. Maybe they evolved to make the right size cells? I also refuse to debate evolution, for totally different reasons. :)
You said:>Varroa does not build up to critical levels in the nucs.
The point is you are claiming that making nucs reduces the Varroa. I have no problem with that. But when I've claimed that natural cell size reduces Varroa and you demand scientific proof. I think you should live up to your own standards and provide studies or proof or stop making claims -OR- stop making such an issue when others share what they have observed when they have no "scientific proof". :)
Quote from: Michael Bush
You said:>Varroa does not build up to critical levels in the nucs.
The point is you are claiming that making nucs reduces the Varroa. I have no problem with that.
I remember time when I had not varroa 20 years ago. It was quite easy to get over winter the hive where was two 5+5 frame nucs in one box and medium wall. When varroa come it was not possible any more to get over winter small colonies. Especially nosema made bad results. Chalk brood came up too.
With terrarium heater I may over winter now even 2 frame nucs but naturally it is wise to overwinter normal box full of bees.
Hi all
My interests in this do not revolve around the Varroa control aspects but simply good beekeeping practice. The production of additional hives/stock is an essential part of keeping bees or any livestock
The correct management of these colonies leeds to a better understand of the bees and will better your honey prduction in seasons to come. :lol:
Regards Ian
Natural versus engineering
I thinks that habit "to think naturally" means often "no use to bother". It is in Higher's hands.
Usually, when I have got bad yield I have explain to myself that is weather, which spoiled the it. But when I have I have put hives in different places I have noticed that it was me who put hives in bad pastures. Same weather but very diffrent yields.
40 years I have nursed bees and just now I started to examine what really happens in sprin in the colony. How I tear out all advances from spring build up? I have noticed a lot what I can do and which order the development of colony. In natural way it same as before. No need to know. Experiments with terrarium heaters have gived to me very good answers.
I you have not arrangements where to compare results, it is difficult to get answers. I am not going to regres my mind to any ism. It is not for me. But I am not eager either to try all tricks what beekeeprs offer. Most of them do not bring honey. It is just threrapy for beekeeper.
.
"These small colonies I shall call nuclei, and the system of forming stocks from them, my nucleus system; and before I describe this system more particularly, I shall show other ways in which the nuclei can be formed. If the Apiarian has sealed queens on hand, they ought, by all means, to be given to the nuclei, in order to save all the time possible. I come now to the very turning point of the whole nucleus system. By careful management, brood enough may be taken from a single hive, to build up a large number of nuclei. If the attempt at very rapid multiplication is made only by those who are favorably situated, and who have skill in the management of bees, a very large gain may be made in the number of stocks, and they may all be strong and flourishing. " -- Langstroth on the hive and the honey-bee: a bee keeper's manual. (1853)
"It is possible to remove combs of brood and bees from strong colonies without impairing their strength. There is a period of about 3 months in which nuclei can grow to colony strength. If these divisions are made sufficiently early in the year, they will make full colonies by late fall." -- G. H. Cale in "The Hive and the Honey Bee" (Dadant & Sons, 1949)
"Indeed, it is not necessary to do anything more than to let a nucleus stand without any help in a fair season, if it can stand long enough. My assistant is inclined to be quite optimistic in some things, and one August she expressed her belief that a nucleus of two frames with a laying queen would be able without any assistance, if started on that date, Aug. 6, to build up into a colony strong enough to winter. I said that would be asking too much, and we would put the matter to the test. So two frames of brood with adhering bees were put in a hive on a new stand, and two days later a laying queen was given. The two frames of brood were rather better than the average, for I wanted her to see that even with an extra chance it was too late in the season for any such growth. I don't know whether she watched that colony on the sly or not, but I did. Looking at it every few days, I could see no gainÃ'if anything it grew weaker. Then I thought I could see a little gain, and in twelve days from the time it was started the two frames of brood had increased to two and a half. Five days later there were three brood, and from that on it walked right along to a fair colony, although it had to be fed up for winter. But I would not want to count on starting for a full colony so late as that in all seasons, especially if the frames of brood were not the very best." -- C. C. MILLER in Fifty Years (Root Company, 1911)
"The wintering of a large reserve of young queens [in nucs] might at first sight seem an extravagant use of equipment, bees, and honey, and unwarranted upkeep and outlay. This is, however, not the case, for the nuclei are almost self-supporting and permit us to subect these queens to a preliminary test before they are transferred to honey producing colonies in the spring." -- Brother Adam in "Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey" (Northern Bee Books, 1975)
"The location of the queen and bee industry has changed over the years since the 1860's. Pioneers of the bee industry were located mainly in the northeastern United States. Nuclei with queens have been offered for sale since at least the 1870's. By the 1880's, queen producers were located across the country, even in the very cold winter areas. Dating from the 1870's, a few southern queen producers sold queens in early spring, but the shift of the larger part of the bee industry to mild winter areas did not start before the 1910's. By the 1930's, the bee industry was located mostly in the south and in California where it is today." -- Kenneth Tucker in "Beekeeping in the United States" (USDA, 1980)
If we believe that as Michael Bush suggests (I do I might add) that genetics are a key issue in over winter survival. Why isn't there talk of genetic modification of bees? For those who are totally against GMOs you might not want to eat kale or cauliflower. Both are lines from genetically modified mustard.
Quote from: Eric Bosworth on November 07, 2014, 05:39:09 AM
If we believe that as Michael Bush suggests (I do I might add) that genetics are a key issue in over winter survival. Why isn't there talk of genetic modification of bees? For those who are totally against GMOs you might not want to eat kale or cauliflower. Both are lines from genetically modified mustard.
There is if you look in the right places. Most of that modification is taking place through breeding rather than actual manipulation of the DNA.. There is more talk about the breeding of resistant bees... But, the fellows with all the money are selling packages, and their bees are adapted best to... make more packages....
Quote from: OldMech on November 07, 2014, 10:15:27 AM
There is more talk about the breeding of resistant bees... But, the fellows with all the money are selling packages, and their bees are adapted best to... make more packages....
I agree. However I was amazed by the study that was done with requeening package bees with local queens. The survival rate was a lot better.
http://mysare.sare.org/mySARE/ProjectReport.aspx?do=viewRept&pn=FNE09-665&y=2009&t=0 (http://mysare.sare.org/mySARE/ProjectReport.aspx?do=viewRept&pn=FNE09-665&y=2009&t=0)
So for those of us that want get bees in the spring and have the survive through the winter this might be a reasonable option.
That is exactly what I advocate VERY strongly..
BUY PACKAGES!! get the hives growing and building early. When local or northern queens become available re queen the packages, IF the packages are not already in the process of re queening themselves!! You have to pay attention when putting a new queen in, that the bees have not started supersedure cells already.. 9 out of ten test packages I bought this spring superseded...
1 of my packages died in a couple weeks. I am pretty sure I left too much of a door open for them because I had a bad cold snap a few days after I brought them home. My biggest problem was finding local queens to re-queen them with. That said the other package that did survive did quite well.
Quote from: Eric Bosworth on November 07, 2014, 10:38:57 AM
I agree. However I was amazed by the study that was done with requeening package bees with local queens. The survival rate was a lot better.
http://mysare.sare.org/mySARE/ProjectReport.aspx?do=viewRept&pn=FNE09-665&y=2009&t=0 (http://mysare.sare.org/mySARE/ProjectReport.aspx?do=viewRept&pn=FNE09-665&y=2009&t=0)
So for those of us that want get bees in the spring and have the survive through the winter this might be a reasonable option.
Eric, too bad you don't live closer. Our local bee group puts on a free 2 day intro to beekeeping course every January.
http://hvhives.com/intro-to-beekeeping/ (http://hvhives.com/intro-to-beekeeping/)
I talk extensively on the value of having local acclimatized stock. Ideally you would want to start with local over-wintered nucs, but this can be hard at times and more costly. Packages are the worst way to start as it is a mish mosh of bees from different hives and a queen they are not related to. Furthermore the colony is in decline for almost the first month until brood starts to hatch. Unfortunately, packages have become the norm for people starting into beekeeping, and I think it is also one of the biggest factor of people not continuing. With that said, requeening with a acclimatized queen is what I always recommend to beginners. Unfortunately, many get overwhelmed by how "good" the southern queen appears to do during the summer and think they have a good one. But even poor queen appear to be good when conditions are ideal. It is when the weather changes and fall comes that these "good" queens start to fail. When it is too late to requeen.....
My biggest problem was finding a source of local queens. I did requeen we will see what happens in the spring. I do have them in a hoop house for the winter. We will see.
Quote from: ian michael davison on February 19, 2006, 06:28:32 AM
Hi all
Kris: Yes I think you get it!!!!!!!!!! :lol:
I think most the points you mention where covered by Finsky and as he says 10 frame colonies do come through a little better than the 5 frame. But both tend to build up in my area as well or sometimes quicker than normal colonies.
You can easily help these smaller (5 frame) hives in the previous Autumn by adding some drawn frames after the honey has been extracted from them. I tend to put 1 frame in the centre of the nest to encourage the queen to lay it up and the rest to the sides. Only add the frame to the centre if you have plenty of bees because you are splitting the brood but the queen normaly starts to lay this up in a day or two.
If a slow steady feed is given in the early Autumn these young queens continue laying far longer than their older counter parts and this provides plenty of young bees for the winter and following spring.
All the nucs you mention above can be used for the raising of queens and the use of 10 frame hive bodies with a divider is very good as you can remove 1 queen for use elsewhere and easily unite the colonies for wintering if you wish. Or should you decide to try and get both through they benefit from some shared heat. The mini nucs you mention are widely used for queen rearing but it's a question of scale and whether they suit your set up.
The only other suggestions I would make are to try some of the poly hives, colonies really benefit from the extra warmth. Keep a small block of candy on these small hives from the middle of the winter as this takes the pressure off their stores. I also treat in the autumn and winter for Varroa with tried and tested methods.If you give some of these methods a go you will soon come up with methods of your own that suit your area, bees and your own style. When your fellow beekeepers are sitting around moaning about the price of bees or the winter losses you can sit back with a smug look on your face and even offer to sell them a couple. AT AN EXTORTIONATE PRICE OF COURSE. :twisted:
Derbeemiester: I don't get the American bee journal so if you could please keep adding a few articles it would be most welcome.
Regards Ian
Poly hives will only make a difference if they are NOT used with top ventilation...
Conservation of energy is needed, conduction, natural convection, forced convection, evaporation, radiation you need to have all the bases covered in the far north.
Quote from: derekm on November 07, 2014, 05:59:50 PM
Poly hives will only make a difference if they are NOT used with top ventilation...
Conservation of energy is needed, conduction, natural convection, forced convection, evaporation, radiation you need to have all the bases covered in the far north.
Exactly! I take a lot of "heat" (no pun intended) because I break the cardinal rule of beekeeping by not providing top ventilation. I use Poly deeps with a 2" rigid insulation shim and 2" rigid insulation top. I use a 4" entrance and two 1" screen vent holes in the bottom board. I have yet to loose a hive to the dreaded "moisture".
Why is it everyone claims beekeeping methods are all about your location and climate except when it comes to top ventilation and "Cold doesn't kill bees, moisture does". :evil:
Quote from: Robo on November 08, 2014, 08:26:18 AM
Quote from: derekm on November 07, 2014, 05:59:50 PM
Poly hives will only make a difference if they are NOT used with top ventilation...
Conservation of energy is needed, conduction, natural convection, forced convection, evaporation, radiation you need to have all the bases covered in the far north.
Exactly! I take a lot of "heat" (no pun intended) because I break the cardinal rule of beekeeping by not providing top ventilation. I use Poly deeps with a 2" rigid insulation shim and 2" rigid insulation top. I use a 4" entrance and two 1" screen vent holes in the bottom board. I have yet to loose a hive to the dreaded "moisture".
Why is it everyone claims beekeeping methods are all about your location and climate except when it comes to top ventilation and "Cold doesn't kill bees, moisture does". :evil:
how uncommon/common is a "closed top" for over wintering in yourpart of the U.S.
The well known aphorism you quoted just doesnt match the research but still its quoted. Heat loss kill and weakens
Quote from: derekm on November 08, 2014, 06:44:14 PM
how uncommon/common is a "closed top" for over wintering in yourpart of the U.S.
The well known aphorism you quoted just doesnt match the research but still its quoted. Heat loss kill and weakens
With the exception of me and a few new beekeepers that I have mentored, 100% provide upper ventilation. Our average minimum temperature is -26C
Quote from: Robo on November 08, 2014, 08:26:18 AM
Quote from: derekm on November 07, 2014, 05:59:50 PM
Poly hives will only make a difference if they are NOT used with top ventilation...
Conservation of energy is needed, conduction, natural convection, forced convection, evaporation, radiation you need to have all the bases covered in the far north.
Exactly! I take a lot of "heat" (no pun intended) because I break the cardinal rule of beekeeping by not providing top ventilation. I use Poly deeps with a 2" rigid insulation shim and 2" rigid insulation top. I use a 4" entrance and two 1" screen vent holes in the bottom board. I have yet to loose a hive to the dreaded "moisture".
Why is it everyone claims beekeeping methods are all about your location and climate except when it comes to top ventilation and "Cold doesn't kill bees, moisture does". :evil:
I do lectures on how the physics of heat and transfer applies to Honeybees over here in the UK. It sees like it will be a long time before the U.S.beekeeping community will want to hear how bees really use heat flow and exploit thermal properties of their habitats.
Hang in there, the laws of thermodynamics and heat and mass transfer do still hold in the U.S. !!
I understand the keeping the bees warm. But moisture is an issue if it condenses and drips on the bees. How do you deal with this problem?
As I understand it, from a LOT of reading and studying.. the way the air cirulates in the hive is dependent on NO upper ventilation, but is also dependent on an insulated roof..
Having a roof that is not insulated, with ANY type of structure that will cause the condensation to DRIP.. The escape hole in the inner cover for instance... Insulate that to prevent the condensation, and the warmth rises, rolls to the outer wall, and descends as it is displaced my warmer air..
The issue, is when the bees are LOW in the hive, and that warm moist air has a ways to go before it reaches the inner cover. The inner over is NOT warmed by the warmth from the cluster yet, and so, moisture WILL condense.. As the cluster rises, that warmth will increase, and eventually the condensation will stop.. The issue I have, is protecting my bees from the initial condensation..
Today is was 66 degrees.. Tomorrow, it is forecast to be 32 degrees, with teens at night.. For the next week or two, the bees will be dripped on if I do not provide upper ventilation, and that will last until they have moved UP far enough in the hive to heat the inner cover.. I am not so sure that the moisture will not condense on the FRAMES above them when they are far enough away...
I am at a bit of a loss about how to nullify that without an upper vent... I am experimenting with an upper entrance below the upper medium.. I use medium boxes exclusively,, so I run three brood chambers.. With an upper entrance at the top of the second box, it leaves the third box with NO ventilation, but the bees will be close enough to the top at that point to warm the inner cover sufficiently top keep it from condensing moisture...
I would like to find research to the effect of what temperature/distance the worst of the problem begins..
To me, it only makes sense to preserve ANY heat given off by the bees to the best of our ability, but I have also been trained from the age of thirteen that you MUST have a small upper entrance for ventilation, as well as entrane and egress when the bottom entrance is plugged with snow and ice..... For 37 years the upper entrance has worked, I am reluctant to change, despite how much sense NO upper entrance makes...
reduce any thermal mass between the insulation and the bees. Then condensing action will warm that faster and so any transient condensation will be small, unlikely to drip and be quite warm. This transforms a threat into benefit
Quote from: derekm on November 11, 2014, 04:30:58 AM
reduce any thermal mass between the insulation and the bees. Then condensing action will warm that faster and so any transient condensation will be small, unlikely to drip and be quite warm. This transforms a threat into benefit
Reduce thermal mass? What thermal mass would you suggest I reduce? Honey stores? Great... Its better they starve than freeze from the cold dripping condensation. I would guess these practices are somewhat location specific. For example Robo is about 2 hours from me. I probably get a lot more snow and wet weather than he does. Not much much further than that from me they get dumped on all winter with snow from Lake Ontario or Erie. That said lake effect is usually a dry snow. I regularly get wet snow. Short of sealing the hive completely how do you account for this?
while vacationing in Florida the sun was warm ans the skies clear.
I jest
reducing the thermal mass sounds impractical. the location and type of top vent.
in construction we wick moisture out. say with a cotton plug, may work
it is the thermal mass of the condensing surface in question i.e. the inner cover.for better clarity substitute "between the bees and", with this "between the bee cavity and" in that post.
You can reduce the thermal mass of the inner cover easily by using thin plywood or making the insulation it self the top cover. Thus the warmth of the bees and the latent heat of condensation can quiclky change the surface temperature of the top cover to above the dew point. If you use a plywood inner cover make sure the insulation is sealed to the top surface of the inner cover with tape all the way round.
Placing nucs on top of a hive will keep both warm
If I understand correctly I should not use wooden hive bodies. I should just use Styrofoam. The bears would really make a mess of Styrofoam. At least I was able to put the frames back in and start over with wood.
Quote from: Eric Bosworth on November 11, 2014, 08:17:12 PM
If I understand correctly I should not use wooden hive bodies. I should just use Styrofoam. The bears would really make a mess of Styrofoam. At least I was able to put the frames back in and start over with wood.
STYROFOAM SIDES?? havent got you to close the topvent and put just a slab on the roof yet. Lets not rush those fences
I did put Styrofoam on top. I also put the hives inside my wife's vegetable hoop house. As far as closing a top vent... That is the only door. They need to get out for cleansing flights.
Quote from: Eric Bosworth on November 12, 2014, 06:12:18 AM
I did put Styrofoam on top. I also put the hives inside my wife's vegetable hoop house. As far as closing a top vent... That is the only door. They need to get out for cleansing flights.
then open one at the bottom and close the top.
Just what I need... A rodent infested bee hive.
mouse gards
If I have top entrances I don't need mouse guards. I don't like bottom entrances for several reasons. When my parents kept bees my father used to get stung at his feet and lower legs because they are right by the door. Dad used to have mom customize his bee suit to cinch down a the ankles. I have never been stung below my waist. The day my dad said he got stung the worst was when they had propolized the boxes together and he thought he had them broken apart and he lifted and they were still stuck and he dropped the bottom box. That didn't make the bees happy. With top entrances I may still have the boxes stick together but they won't be rushing to sting my feet. The rodents and skunks are not as big a problem either. When we have a spell of drastically cold weather I do plan to put something by the hives as a heater.
Quote from: Eric Bosworth on November 12, 2014, 11:28:04 AM
If I have top entrances I don't need mouse guards. I don't like bottom entrances for several reasons. When my parents kept bees my father used to get stung at his feet and lower legs because they are right by the door. Dad used to have mom customize his bee suit to cinch down a the ankles. I have never been stung below my waist. The day my dad said he got stung the worst was when they had propolized the boxes together and he thought he had them broken apart and he lifted and they were still stuck and he dropped the bottom box. That didn't make the bees happy. With top entrances I may still have the boxes stick together but they won't be rushing to sting my feet. The rodents and skunks are not as big a problem either. When we have a spell of drastically cold weather I do plan to put something by the hives as a heater.
put the hives on a stand...
stand ,bottom entrance, no top vent, insulation they are all part of the system.
Stands keep the critters out and the snow out
bottom entrance and no top vent keep the hot air in.
insulation puts the condensation to the side and below and makes both the bees and the condensation warm
let me guess you dont want to put the hives on a stand
Quote from: Eric Bosworth on November 11, 2014, 08:17:12 PM
The bears would really make a mess of Styrofoam. At least I was able to put the frames back in and start over with wood.
Actually it is quite the opposite. When bears hit my poly hives they usually break in half corner to corner and the frames spill out. They are easily glued back together. When bears hit my wooden hives there is just a splintered mess left that is usually unsalvageable.
Hummmm..... I do have my hives on a stand. I don't like bending over to work on them.
The bear that got some of my bees took a nuc. It ripped off the hinge and damaged the top but didn't do to much damage... Except for the bees... Nothing left of the bees.
You should also work your hives from the back, otherwise you will have upset foragers running into you, as well as alarming the entrance guard bees. Always work hives from the back, or at least the sides.
I put my bees in long hives during the summer so that I don't have to bend over and lift much. I have to work from the side. In the winter I take 8 frame boxes and put a divider board in them and put 1 colony in each side to help them keep warm. Next year I am thinking about doing something with split frames so I can divide each box in quarters and put a colony in each corner.